AFFC Reread Project - Arya

[A wilding]

Can we really be certain of that? Faceless Men must have faces truly of their own.

No, I don't think that we can be certain, but the Kindly Man says at least once that to become a Faceless Man you must sacrifice everything that you are and have. IIRC he even lists the parts of Arya's body. So I took that as an implication that your original self gets discarded somewhere in the training. After all, how can they say that they are "truly no one" if the original person is still in there somewhere?

[Lupigis]

My major question after reading this chapter is: Are the FM grooming Arya for a specific purpose, while pretending to put her through a "standard" FM acolyte initiation process?

After all, it's clear that they are aware of her identity. It's also highly likely that they have received reports from Jaqen regarding her history. Since they appear to have some political goals in Westeros it makes sense for them to seek to use Arya politically.

Hence, I agree with A wilding that they may well be aware that she refused to ditch Needle, and that they may be choosing to overlook this for the moment. However, I think that it's quite possible that they will later seek to use her not as a standard FM, but as Arya of hose Stark. I also agree that Arya's connection with Nymeria and the Old Gods of the North may be the thing that enables her to break away from the FM and go her own way again, as she has done so many times before.

The blind acolyte mentioned in this chapter is significant since it could be a hint that blinding is a common practice during FM training.

[rpthomps]

During the reread of AGoT, Ned visits the armorer Tobho Mott from Qohor. Gendry is working here, Robert's bastard. The door to this place has a carving made from ebony and weirwood.

[Happy Ent]

Interesting quote from KindlyMan:

Before you drink from the cold cup, you must offer up all you are to Him of Many Faces. Your body. Your soul. Yourself.

That sounds as if the initiation to FacelessManHood is also done "by drinking". I guess that each stage entails drinking some unholy poison. It begins with a cup of warm milk that takes your eyesight. At the end, when you have lost eyes, ears, hands, feet, arms, legs, private parts, etc., is "the cold cup". After that one you are No One. Truly.

I cannot believe the FM don't know about Needle either. It isn't hidden terribly well. A loose stone on the temple's staircase, so loose that Arya finds it "by accident". She then dislodges it and puts it back. The Faceless Man Butler will find it next time he sweeps the stairs.

[Seventh Pup]

Other

Arya: "He should have killed the masters!" KM: "He would bring the gift to them as well... but that is a tale for another day, one best shared with no one."

Oho! The first Faceless Man brings the gift to the masters, and it sounds super-secret. Alas, the timeframes don't match, otherwise we could assume they were behind the Doom. (But Braavos is old, the FM are older, and the Doom is only a few centuries ago.)

I thought of the Doom too. One thing I will say is that it does not say when the FM brought the "Gift" to the masters. The first time I assumed it was the same the FM but if a FM is "No one" then "Any One" could have contributed...

Not convinced it has anything to do with the Doom, but I wouldn't be surprised. The FM has a secret that "no one" can know.

[Grant Dempsey]

No, I don't think that we can be certain, but the Kindly Man says at least once that to become a Faceless Man you must sacrifice everything that you are and have. IIRC he even lists the parts of Arya's body. So I took that as an implication that your original self gets discarded somewhere in the training. After all, how can they say that they are "truly no one" if the original person is still in there somewhere?

I would assume Faceless Men each still have a "true appearance", the one with which they were actually born. Assuming holding a different appearance than that requires magic, I'd think they'd just revert to their "neutral" face when not intentionally trying to impersonate another individual. In the case of the kindly man, he's trying to train Arya Stark to become "no one", to become a Faceless Man; he's not trying to hide or fool her. I think it would be counterproductive for him to go out of his way to slip into a persona that would appeal to her for training her. I just figure the kindly man is the kindly man, that that is as close to the "no one" whom he is as anyone could get.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

The gift given to masters seems to be the Doom, but it doesn't seem likely that first FM gave it to them personally, since Braavos existed in hiding by 300 years. Perhaps he just put things in motion, knowing that it will lead to the Doom somewhere down the line. Or it was indeed some other FM. If they are truly noone, perhaps they can all be considered the same.

I agree that Kindlz Man certainly know about Needle. After al it isn't very well hidden. I wonder how it all will play out. We still know too little about FM and they modus operandi to make any guesses.

I also noticed blind acolyte and weren't to worried abot Arya's blindness. I also agree that Kindly Man is almost certainly only a persona (one which seem especially suitable to dealing with novices) and Arya didn't make a connection with real FM personality (if there even is any such thing).

I find Faceless Men very fascinating and it is one of my favorite chapters in the whole book (but I like Cat of the Canals even more).

[GRRwolingDirewolf]

Sorry this is off topic but I'm a lurker not a poster.

I must say, everyone, I am humbled and amazed by the command so many of you have of GRRM's books. I am a fan... but not an expert. You all are truly experts. I bet GRRM himself would be facinated to see this (and indeed he may lurk here too).

I've constructed an ode to your abilities:

"The Servants of the Song"

The Servants of the Song

Knowledge increasing with the winter

It is coming

They are knowing

They are discussing

Like doctors and their texts

Preachers with their psalms

And singers with their songs

You know every nook

And cranny rook

Of Westros.

Whom is related to whom--

What happened when--

Where the POVs have been--

And how it perhaps will end.

Riders three

And who will see

The cold dark eyes

The Others breed;

But these,

O' these forum warriors:

Alchemists, maesters, faceless

All three these

If enshrined in the Dance

Would end it pleased.

Astute are they.

The Song would be sung

No, fantasy would be enough for thee

And George would kill you off in the prologue

For you know far, far, too much.

-GRRowlingDirewolf

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The interesting thing about this chapter is that Arya is offered a way into a new life, and rejects it; but she's also offered a way into her old life, passage on a ship to Westeros (which doesn't go to Eastwatch, but a ship that did could presumably be found), and she rejects that too. She can't let go of Arya Stark, but she's not about to embrace the role either.

[A wilding]

Having argued that every FM is "no one", I thought that for fun I would now take Grant's side and argue the other way. After all, we are perhaps too inclined to accept extraordinary claims in fantasy that we would laugh at in RL. So -

Hypothesis: The idea that FM have all given up their souls and are truly no one is mystical hogwash to impress people, or at best an unattainable ideal that the FM try to live up to.

Implications: FM keep their original personality and appearance. They undeniably gain the power to physically transform into another person for long periods of time and probably this enables them to disguise their personalities somewhat too. They obviously have considerable expertise as assassins. They likely practice mental disciplines that give them control over their emotions.

Difficulties: I see two.

1) The FM can command huge prices. Their reputation is extraordinarily high both in Braavos and beyond. Witness that an obviously uncertain foreign girl child with an FM token is immediately given passage on a Braavosi ship - with a cabin - without question.

Answers: The FM are very good assassins and have excellent PR. The respect they have in Braavos may be down to some involvement in the founding of the city and even in the Doom of Valryia. Giving FM candidates passage to their temple might be some sort of approximate equivalent to Muslims supporting fellow Muslims going on the Hajj, or just the general practice of supporting holy men common to many religions.

2) As far as we can tell, the FM are a monolithic organisation with a single purpose. They have never split into factions and none of them has ever run off to set up business on their own account.

Answers: We know little about the FM organisation. Perhaps they have just always been successful in suppressing internal dissent and dealing with any renegades without news of it getting too far. Or perhaps they have some as yet unrevealed mechanism for controlling their membership.

Hmm. This all seems possible, but I have not quite managed to convince myself.

[Old Zog]

If the Faceless Men are truly no one, then it would be pointless for Arya to play the lying game with the Waif. If the Waif is no one, then she'll be able to tell lies and truths about her own past withouth giving any clue as to which is which. Yet by the end of the book we see Arya starting to have some success at distinguishing the two.

(Or maybe the Waif isn't yet a full-fledged Faceless (wo)Man. I don't remember.)

[wfzimmerman]

If the Faceless Men are truly no one, then it would be pointless for Arya to play the lying game with the Waif. If the Waif is no one, then she'll be able to tell lies and truths about her own past withouth giving any clue as to which is which. Yet by the end of the book we see Arya starting to have some success at distinguishing the two.

Brilliant argument!

I think this whole FM = "no one" argument is silly. As GRRM well knows, human history is full of sects that have claimed to reduce their adherents' personal identities to "no one." thankfully, this has always been an exaggeration and a lie.

Sure, maybe there is some magical component to the Faceless Men that makes it possible for them to reduce identity, but magic in GRRM's world is always limited, scarce, and expensive.

Practically speaking, a character who is "no one" has as much narrative appeal as a brick.

[rpthomps]

The costs of hiring a Faceless Man is considerable, in AGoT the cost to have a merchant killed is double the price of hiring an army of sellswords.

[Tagot]

To go back to all of the "ebony and weirwood" arguments...

Isn't it possible that those were the best materials to use for the door to the House of Black and White? Ebony essentially the purest form of black, and weirwood a perfect white? Just throwing that out there, because I think that some of you are reading too much into the material of the doors.

You know, now that I think about it, obsidian is black too...

What would a female Faceless Man be called? All of you are saying that she would be a Faceless Man, but maybe it's technically proper to refer to a female as a Faceless Woman? I don't think that we've seen any other female Faceless Men, though, so it's hard to be sure.

[Vercint]

The door could be significant because recall there was a similar door in KL, the door of the master smith's place where Gendry worked. The smith, Tobho Mott, is from one of the Free Cities, I forget which, but not Braavos. Tobho Mott is also the smith who reforged Ice into two swords for Tywin Lannister. He mentions using 'spells' to work the steel.

The connection may be only a coincidence...maybe black and white doors are common in the Free Cities, or something. Nevertheless, it could be they are connected.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

To go back to all of the "ebony and weirwood" arguments...

Isn't it possible that those were the best materials to use for the door to the House of Black and White? Ebony essentially the purest form of black, and weirwood a perfect white? Just throwing that out there, because I think that some of you are reading too much into the material of the doors.

You know, now that I think about it, obsidian is black too...

That doesn't explain why the door in the House of the Undying was made of the same materials, though. My guess:

ebony/black = fire

weirwood/white = ice

[Ashara Stark]

Arya doesn't include any Frey in her prayers because she doesn't know their names. I think that implies she is beginning to think like a Faceless Man: she can only kill people whose names she knows.

As some of you have already pointed out, it is important to note that, although the kindly man tells her that she is in the wrong place more than once (she cannot decide who lives or dies, she has to give up everything from her previous live to become no one) and offers her to go back to Westeros or a new life in Braavos, she stubbornly refuses to leave the House of Black and White. I cannot understand why she doesn't ask him for passage to the Wall to meet Jon Snow. in my opinion that is an indication that she doesn't listen to what he is telling her and she hasn't realise yet of what is required to become a Faceless man (or woman).

The corpses are taken to the lower sanctum. A theory of mine is that the priests there take their faces out and prepare them to be used as disguises for the FM.

I agree with the ones that have stated that the kindly man knows Arya has hidden Needle, not only because she hasnt hidden it well but also because she is a very bad liar

She wargs into Nymeria, so running water doesn't prevent warging.

That sounds as if the initiation to FacelessManHood is also done "by drinking". I guess that each stage entails drinking some unholy poison. It begins with a cup of warm milk that takes your eyesight. At the end, when you have lost eyes, ears, hands, feet, arms, legs, private parts, etc., is "the cold cup". After that one you are No One. Truly.

It seems that first they have to do something that shows the instructor that their are prepared to pass to the next level and after that they are given the poison that completes the process.

Arya has to get rid of all her belongings before becoming a novice, and has to kill Daeron before becoming an acolyte.

There are 7 stupids in this chapter (only 6 in the first one) and the most stupid sentence is this description of Arya's behaviuor in the House of Black and White too stupid to learn and too stupid to give up

[Barba]

In this chapter we learn most things about FM. many of them have already being mentioned, but some I haven't seen, so I'll say them:

What we offer cannot be bought with gold. The cost is all of you. Men take many paths through this vale of tears and pain. Ours is the hardest. Few are made to walk it. It takes uncommon strength of body and spirit, and a heart both hard and strong

Many have served Him of Many Faces through the centuries, but only a few of His servants have been women. Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both.

this two quotes marked my memory. in first with 'few are made to walk it' makes me think that there are no more than 10 FM killers in westeros.

second one (crackpot) made me think will arya become barren if she becomes FM.

I also noticed one thing. In ACOK arya is repeating names of peoples she wants dead. in this book it suddenly becomes a prayer. Does this mean that Many Faced God will bless her prayer, because of her devoted prayings.

[Old Zog]

I also noticed one thing. In ACOK Arya is repeating names of peoples she wants dead. in this book it suddenly becomes a prayer.

I think in ACoK Arya already thought of the names as a prayer to the old gods. I'm thinking specifically of when she was practicing with her wooden stick in the Harrenhal godswood.

[Seventh Pup]

second one (crackpot) made me think will arya become barren if she becomes FM.

I don't think this is a crack pot idea. The FM are well versed in poisons, and Human Antomy. I would make sense that they would know how to make some one sterile if they wanted to. A FM can't be a parent, because then they are someone. I would except that part of being a FM is willingly becoming barren or sterile.