AFFC Reread Project - Brienne

[cteresa]

Thread to discuss Brienne´s PoV chapters. Provisory schedule dates to start such discussion,

Page numbers are from the UK hardback

12-Dez-05 Brienne 1 page 57 to 70

2-Jan-06 Brienne 2 page 131 to 144

23-Jan-06 Brienne 3 page 199 to 214

13-Fev-06 Brienne 4 page 280 to 297

27-Fev-06 Brienne 5 page 363 to 376

20-Mar-06 Brienne 6 page 461 to 472

10-Abr-06 Brienne 7 page 547 to 560

1-Mai-06 Brienne 8 page 628 to 641

Will change above if there are any mistakes (please let me know!) or alterations.

[Grumpkin]

After reading the book a second time, I'm questioning why we had to spend so much time with Brienne if she was just going to end up at the end of a rope. Certainly she was an important character, and her meeting Catelyn was an important plot point. But Jeez! How many pages did we spend tromping through the woods with her? And why?

[cteresa]

After reading the book a second time, I'm questioning why we had to spend so much time with Brienne if she was just going to end up at the end of a rope. Certainly she was an important character, and her meeting Catelyn was an important plot point. But Jeez! How many pages did we spend tromping through the woods with her? And why?

Wait for her first chapter, next week, to start discussion, please.

[Happy Ent]

Timeline: We meet Brienne on the road to Rosby and Duskendale. I assume she left King's Landing in the morning. As usual, we don't get hard and fast information from GRRM, but her night with the Ser Illifer and Ser Creighton could well be her first night of her trip.

From the flashbacks it is clear that she tarried in King's Landing for a while before leaving for Duskendale, after she got Jaime's orders.

Brienne makes it past Rosby on this first day. The next day she and her companions reach the Old Stone Bridge inn.

Two issues complicate the matter of putting dates to these events. (1) We don't know when Jaime sends Brienne on her quest in Jaime IX. It's after Orberyn's death, but before Tywin's. On the other hand, Brienn clearly hasn't heard of Lord Tywin's death yet, and if she left KL the same morning, I date her first day on the road before the patricide.

16 Jan Jaime IX: Brienne receives oathkeeper

20-21 Jan Brienne I

21 Jan Tyrion XI: Tywin dies

Arboreal perspective

There are almost no trees mentioned at all in this chapter. The merchant is travelling with servants who wield quarterstaffs of ash. Brienne recalls a Septon near Maidenpool who hung from a tree, but we don't receiver other details. Ser Creighton is having a piss up a totally innocent tree; but we are spared the embarrassing personal details of the targeted plant. I don't trust Ser Creighton at all.

Mistakes

On p.68 my copy has

The hedge knights and the septon washed down the meat with ale, but Brienne drank a cup of goat's milk.

I assume the "septon" should be Hibalt the merchant.

[A wilding]

This chapter starts with a good example of the info recaps Happy Ent mentioned last week. In the first few pages we are reminded who and what Brienne is, what she is doing and why, and also what has happened to the Stark family. It is done very neatly, my only quibble would be the line "Jaime claimed Arya was dead". Brienne does not really doubt Jaime, the verb "claim" is there to remind the reader that Arya is not dead, and to me, strikes a slightly false note.

There was a lot of pre ASoS speculation as to where Brienne would look for Sansa and why. IMO it was rather loaded by our knowledge of where Sansa was - many people seemed to think that Brienne would somehow head straight for the Vale. I don't think anyone predicted she would head for Ser Dontos' hometown, though in retrospect it is obvious enough. I can't talk though, I thought she would assume that Sansa was with Tyrion and start looking for him, but because she was smart enough to track down Brella, Sansa's other maid, she discovered that the marriage was a sham and that Sansa would have been happy to have escaped him.

Brienne does come across as being naive and slow in some respects, especially asking everyone she meets whether they have met Sansa. I was reminded a little of Sir Parzival/Percivale, the prototype innocent paladin. In my reread, this got me somewhat angry with Jaime. Yes he assuaged his conscience in typical reckless and thoughtless style, by rescuing Brienne, giving her his sword, money, and Tommen's authorisation; but he did not really think about how likely Brienne was to find Sansa, or how she would protect her from Cersei even if she did.

There is a possible hint to a future plot twist when a guard asks Brienne if the girl she is looking for has auburn hair between her legs as well. Likely answer: yes, even if she dyes her hair brown.

[LadySoftheart]

In my reread, this got me somewhat angry with Jaime. Yes he assuaged his conscience in typical reckless and thoughtless style, by rescuing Brienne, giving her his sword, money, and Tommen's authorisation; but he did not really think about how likely Brienne was to find Sansa, or how she would protect her from Cersei even if she did.

You know, I don't understand where this idea that Brienne is trying to find Sansa in order to assuage Jaime's conscience is coming from. I felt that it was crystal clear from the beginning that Brienne was going to go find Arya and Sansa regardless of what Jaime did - she swore an oath to Catelyn Stark that she would bring Jaime safely to King's Landing and return with Catelyn's daughters.

By the time Jaime had travelled to King's Landing, he KNEW Brienne well enough to know that she would keep that oath no matter what - he just gave her better tools to do it and stopped her from chasing after the fake Arya and getting herself killed by telling her to focus on her mission to find Sansa. Brienne was going to find the girls (or die trying) regardless of what Jaime did - he merely giving her every possible assistance with a quest that he knew she would undertake in any case. Other than go with her himself (which would have likely jeopardized the mission both because of who he is - so it's not like he could slip off unnoticed - and his inability to fight; or send men-at-arms with her with the concomitant questions and potential that they would turn over Sansa, if found, to Cersei as a traitor responsible for the King's death), what else could he have done to aid Brienne's quest? He gave her money, a carte blanche signed by Tommen, and a Valyrian steel sword and trusted her good sense and judgment to do the rest. Brienne and Jaime are, as far as they both know, the only people who want Sansa found and kept safe - everyone else is looking for her for other reasons.

Secondly, I don't think Brienne is stupid at all - and neither does Jaime (viz the fact that several times they think very similarly about strategy in ASoS without having to talk it out). In fact, one of the things I noticed rereading ASoS is that he often trusts her judgment in situations that arise later on (i.e. aside from his initially stopping Loras from killing her over Renly, he trusts her to explain herself to Loras without his interference.) I think Jaime has more confidence in Brienne's abilities than we, the readers, do - but that is because we see her self-doubt and hesitation about her abilities and he doesn't - he just sees a woman who got him to King's Landing safely (more or less, and he admits at the end that it's at least as much HIS fault he lost his hand as hers) in the face of crazy odds against that happening. Innocence and kind-heartedness and decency are not necessarily the prerogative of stupid or incompetent people, after all And therefore, I don't think he felt it necessary to tell Brienne how to carry out her mission to the letter.

Now onto THIS book - I love Brienne and I was delighted to get a Brienne POV, and her logic actually does make a lot of sense because she assumes that Sansa is travelling with Ser Dontos (another logical assumption). Logic notwithstanding, Brienne's chapters, to me, read much more like a fairy-tale despite the very intense realism of them - and there's a sort of fairy-tale logic to her questioning of all the people they find along the rode (or really even to the very fact of her quest). Also interesting is that she meets the guy who's going to become the High Septon, I believe (it's the description of his feet?) And she doesn't want to listen to people saying bad things about Jaime even as she recognizes herself that he's done terribly wicked things.

Happy Ent, how come you don't trust Ser Illifer and Ser Creighton?

[Moshe Goldberg Rubinshteyn]

I don't think anyone predicted she would head for Ser Dontos' hometown, though in retrospect it is obvious enough.

In the context of this chapter it makes sense to start looking at Duskendale. However, we later learn that the holding at Duskendale is an uninhabitable ruin (and the accompagnying history is fairly recent, so it should be known across Westeros.) In light of this later information I don't think that Duskendale would have been a good starting point after all.

I don't recall when (if at all) Brienne receives information about Lord Tywin's demise (and the escape of Tyrion). But is it really obvious to Brienne that Tyrion doesn't have a hand in Sansa's disappearance? Moreover, during her chapters it becomes increasingly clear that she's by no means the only one looking for Sansa. Shouldn't that make her pause and reflect that Sansa escaped KL by far less conspicuous means than travelling along one of the main roads? Appearantly Varys is looking for her as well (though the modus operandi seems somewhat out of character for him).

[Oathkeeper]

I don't recall when (if at all) Brienne receives information about Lord Tywin's demise (and the escape of Tyrion). But is it really obvious to Brienne that Tyrion doesn't have a hand in Sansa's disappearance?

You're right, she seems to have already found out about Tywin by the time we hear anyone in her chapters talking about it, because she's unsurprised by the knowledge. Page 139 in my book, she's in the inn, and overhears some people talking about Tywin's death and making rude comments about Jaime in the same conversation. They do say Tyrion did it, but whether she believes them or not isn't made clear.

IIRC: Sansa disappears at the purple wedding, Tyrion is thrown in prison, Jaime tells Brienne he doesn't think Tyrion did it, Brienne leaves on her quest, Tyrion escapes and Tywin dies. Since Sansa escaped well before Tyrion did, I don't see why Brienne would think to link Sansa's escape with Tyrion's. And I think, when she meets Pod, abandoned by both his master and mistress, that would solidify it for her.

[Happy Ent]

Happy Ent, how come you don't trust Ser Illifer and Ser Creighton?

I was merely trying to be funny. Ser Creighton pisses up a tree. Now, many of us are grateful for the nutrients, but by the Roots of Yggradil try to keep it off the bark, will you? Terribly inconsiderate.

Other random details:

• Brienne says "I am no ser."
  
• We catch our first glimpse of Pod in Rosby, and then he passes Brienne and the hedge knights next night.
  
• Who is Ser Creighton's valiant opponent, the knight of the red chicken? Pod mistook the cockatrice of House Gargalen for a chicken in Storm. That would make him a Dornishman... fighting for Stannis?
  

[Urri]

Who is Ser Creighton's valiant opponent, the knight of the red chicken? Pod mistook the cockatrice of House Gargalen for a chicken in Storm. That would make him a Dornishman... fighting for Stannis?

The Mad Mouse later remarks something like "unlike Ser Creighton I did fight on the Blackwater..." . As he seems to be rather well-informed and quite bright he might have the truth of it and there might not even be a knight of the red chicken (at least outside of Ser Creighton's head).

[Happy Ent]

Oh, Urri! That's great! Ser Creighton was at King's Landing, where he has seen the exotic arms of House Gargalen displayed somewhere. But he was never at the Blackwater, for we can be quite sure that House Gargalen never was.

I like that.

[LadySoftheart]

I was merely trying to be funny. Ser Creighton pisses up a tree. Now, many of us are grateful for the nutrients, but by the Roots of Yggradil try to keep it off the bark, will you? Terribly inconsiderate.

Hee! Well, of COURSE Ser Creighton is not to be trusted! I think this might call for a Huorn Punishment Unit invervention

[A wilding]

Replying mostly to Lady Softheart:

I am not sure that it is "crystal clear" that Brienne was going to search for Sansa whatever Jaime did. After the RW Brienne as described as "beaten and done". When Jaime gives her her quest, she seizes the sword with sudden resolution and says "I shall .. find Sansa" - not necessarily the behaviour of someone who was planning to all along.

I am not so sure that Jaime "trusted [brienne] to explain herself to Loras" exactly, it was more he trusted Loras to hear her obviously truthful denial of killing Renly and judge it fairly.

But I would certainly agree that Brienne is not stupid. "Naive and slow in some respects" was my contention, perhaps something to do with her wanting to assume that most people she meets are as decent as her, as indeed they often prove to be when presented with her openness.

[The hairy bear]

Who is Ser Creighton's valiant opponent, the knight of the red chicken?

Perhaps you and the mad mouse are right and Ser Creighton did not fight ad the Blackwater. However, we know that Ser Ronnet Connigton of Griffin's Roost was captured and ransomed at that battle. The arms of the house include per fess red and white two griffins combatant countercharged. Red Ronnet's could have worn a red griffen over his helm, that could earn him the byname "The knight of the Red Chicken" either by mistake or for scorn.

More thoughts:

-We are told that Brienne was less than 13 years old when Renly came to Tarth to celebrate his coming of age. That means that he's about 18 year during the books (probably seventeen when we first saw her at the melee at Bitterbridge). That's just a year older that Jon or Samwell. I pictured her a little bit older. Her innocence and stubborness have more sense now.

-A lot of banners are described in this chaptter: House Rosby, Ser Creighton's and Ser Illifer's,...

-The grandfather of Ser Illifer helped to kill the Last Lohston. The were the fifth house to rule Harrenhal, and were replaced by the Wents. For the way Ser Illifer boasts about the story, it would seem that exterminating Lohstons was a good cause endorsed by the Iron Throne.

-We have a first glimpse of the poor fellows, going to King's Landing.

-Thanks HE for the timelines. I'll try to keep record of them all.

Edited for grammar correctness, as pointed out by Lady Softheart.

[LadySoftheart]

Replying mostly to Lady Softheart:

I am not sure that it is "crystal clear" that Brienne was going to search for Sansa whatever Jaime did. After the RW Brienne as described as "beaten and done". When Jaime gives her her quest, she seizes the sword with sudden resolution and says "I shall .. find Sansa" - not necessarily the behaviour of someone who was planning to all along.

True, she's pretty downtrodden and depressed by Catelyn's death. On the other hand, it seems that then you are suggesting that Jaime returned Brienne's purpose to her by letting her know that he intended to honor his oath even if Catelyn Stark was dead, which, in turn, galvanizes her into honoring hers. I just take issue with the idea that he was "assuaging his conscience" by "dumping" this quest on Brienne when it was something that she took very seriously indeed to begin with. In sum, I suppose I take issue with the idea that Jaime is somehow culpable for everything that happens to Brienne on her quest - I don't really see that he could have done more to help her than he did; nor do I think he shoved off some unpleasant task on her that was really his responsibility to complete: I think at most he reminded Brienne of the oaths that they both swore.

hairy bear, for some reason I think Brienne is about 20 or so. I don't know WHY I think that, but I do - and I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the books. By "him" in the melee, you mean "her", right? I do think she's very young and naive in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to Sansa when we first meet her - like Sansa, Brienne actually believes in knights and honor and all that quaint stuff; unlike Sansa, she knows that outward appearance is not the sole determinant of someone's qualities.

[The hairy bear]

hairy bear, for some reason I think Brienne is about 20 or so. I don't know WHY I think that, but I do - and I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the books.

[rpthomps]

There ARE a lot of helardy in this chapter. Trying to get my head around it all. Sorting out histories and so forth...

I find Brienne's task of finding Sansa, impossible. It's an intriguing one but the means in which she is going about it, and I admit it is the ONLY way she can. It seems very daunting though. Very little records are kept and particularly after a war...Just wanted to get that sense out there.

House Rosby has chevronels on ermine (an ermine is a weasel like creature with a keen sense of smell and are fierce predators)

How did Pod track Brienne so easily? How did he know she was leaving? How come she doesn't notice him all along the way? She notices him occasionally.

Ser Illifer - a man of faith?

Pg 66 - "...Your common mouse will run from blood and battle. The mad mouse seeks them out." "It would seem he seldom finds them." <---what does this mean?

Pg 67 - Tommens title includes King od the Andals, The Rhoynar (what is the Rhoynar?)

[LadySoftheart]

Pg 67 - Tommens title includes King od the Andals, The Rhoynar (what is the Rhoynar?)

Aren't those the folks Nymeria brought with her when she came to Dorne and married whichever Martell was the ruling prince at the time?

OK, now I'm home and I actually have the book here so I can comment a bit more knowledgeably and about this actual chapter:

How does Ser Illifer recognize Brienne so easily? She's apparently a bigger celebrity (or notorious, anyway) than she'd imagined if he immediately recognizes a freakishly big woman who hides her true colors... Poor Brienne is as tainted by the Kingslaying she DIDN'T do as Jaime is by the one he did do - another point of sympathy with him now that she knows why he killed Aerys?

The Sparrows are starting to sound like the Penitentes - the flagellants who whip themselves etc. (there's the guy with the star carved in him in this chapter and of course Lancel's hair shirt later on).

I'm very intrigued that Brienne runs into the future High Septon who will play so critical a role later on - a lean sharp face with a short beard grizzled grey and brown. And she notices his bare black gnarled feet. One of the penitents calls them all false knights because they won't turn around and ride to King's Landing, but the septon is more moderate - he says judgment is the Father's task and that they are all poor fellows lost upon the earth (and asks the Maiden to watch over both Sansa and Brienne). This contrasts a bit with what I remember as his greater fanaticism in dealing with Cersei - but perhaps that's only because he's dealing with Cersei.

Brienne thinks that the Mad Mouse's mockery hardly hurts her while Jaime's cut deep, but later on, she thinks that even Jaime seldom made her feel such a fool.

Brienne's generous with the coin Jaime gave her - she feeds the two wandering knights well and gets them a room, which is very kind of her. (And in light of later events, I'm a bit put off that they eat goat, but I assume this one is the regular kind, not the Vargo kind).

She remembers Jaime's skill with the sword and thinks that maiming him was monstrously cruel - and she's the first person who actually thinks about what losing his hand meant to Jaime (where Tywin and Cersei both thought only of what it meant for their plans for him; and Tyrion barely had time to react). We're already getting hints that she loves Jaime - she can't listen to the others in the common room talking about his maiming so casually and she gets up and leaves.

Brienne sees herself as Oathkeeper's caretaker for a time; the sword belongs in the company of heroes, but she doesn't. She still sees it as Jaime's sword that she has to use for the purpose he gave her.

I'm still not sure why she abandons the two knights so quickly (unless, as Happy Ent suggested, it's because she doesn' t like Ser Illifer's habit of peeing on trees Any thoughts? Did she just figure she was better off on her own?

[rpthomps]

I'm still not sure why she abandons the two knights so quickly (unless, as Happy Ent suggested, it's because she doesn' t like Ser Illifer's habit of peeing on trees Any thoughts? Did she just figure she was better off on her own?

I think Brienne prefers to be on her own because it is with others she begins to compare her size and appearance more prominently. She doesn't want to be constantly reminded about her "differences" When she is alone she is consumed with her task of finding Sansa. This is not true when she is with the two hedge knights.

[Oathkeeper]

I got the feeling she just wanted to ditch them, to shake the pair of knights and the Mad Mouse alike - she couldn't ditch Shadrich without abandoning them all, and she didn't want them following her or knowing where she was going. That just plays into the later themes of losing her trust in men (when she hooks up with Dick), too. I saw her paying for their meals and room as not being a simple kindness, but a way of making up to them, what she was about to do.

In regards to her age: AFFC p61: she says she was "no older than Sansa" - I'd take this to mean '13 even and not older' - not 'less than 13' when Renly came for his coming of age tour (hehe). ASOS p670: Tyrion thinks of a 13-year-old Joffrey that "in three years, that boy will be a man, ruling in his own right" making the age of majority 16. That makes a 3 year gap, then, which would put her at 18 at the time of Renly's death (when he was 21) and nearly 19 now. I had pictured her older, early-mid 20s, old enough to be trusted on so many tasks, old enough to be considered odd for still being the "Maid" of Tarth. But I suppose, if she were truly as old as I had originally thought, it would make no sense for her to only now be killing her first man.