AFFC Reread Project - Brienne

[Thynessa Reed]

Close to the end of Brienne’s first chapter GRRM sets the scene in an inn at a busy river junction called The Old Stone Bridge. Brienne has retired to her room,suddenly upset with the noise smell and company of the public room below by memories of a one-handed Jaime Lannister. From her bedroll she pulls out the kingslayer’s gift. The longsword, Oathkeeper, it’s black and red spell-forged veins aripple by candlelight fills her with awe. She remembers Jaime telling her that she would be defending Sansa with this, a part of the Starks’ own steel. The big woman of Tarth falls to her knees and prays to the Crone for a clear light to guide her to Sansa.

“She had failed Renly, had failed Lady Catelyn. She must not fail Jaime. He trusted me with his sword. He trusted me with his honour. “

And he did. Anybody who has read the end of ASOS knows that Jaime Lannister was serious in his intention to honour his own vow to Catelyn Stark.

As well as a sword of Valyrian steel Brienne has two purses - one stacked with silver stags and copper stars and the other stuffed with golden dragons. Also a piece of parchment signed in Tommens’s own immature hand. Jaime has chosen her gear - saddle, bridle, chainmail, haulberk, greathelm, and a shield scored from Harrenhal and sent her off on a fine mare.

Back in Kings Landing, Brienne learned enough from Sansa’s maid Brella to risk a hunch that Sansa could be travelling to Duskendale with Ser Dontos.The Autumn roads are busy with small folk and religious people. Many religous people. The Faith, it’s representatives and it’s adherents and some of it’s mores feature very largely in this chapter. There are begging brothers, silent sisters, and groups of fervent pilgrims led by septons. By the fourth page Brienne has sworn an oath on the seven herself. Even the two mysterious hedge knights Brienne befriends give us some indication of the role faith plays in their lives (they are shocked that men would murder septons and rape nuns - Brienne isn’t as she has already met the type of men who do exactly that)

By the end of this chapter readers are left in no doubt of the growing prevalence of the “Sparrows†- “the humblest and most comon of birds, as we are the humblest most common of men†declares the man we later learn will become the High Septon of it all. GRRM is showing us an effect of the Game of Thrones - a grass roots movement which could become a catalyst for revolution. The abused trees and common people are on their way to having had enough and the church is seizing power and beginning their own play.

This is another lovely chapter, beautifully written and jam-packed with information. As Brienne travels further north she (and we the readers) become more and more haunted by the memories of her time with Ser Jaime. But she also remembers Renly and her own father, Lord Selwyn, and the more I read about the Evenstar the more I like this Lord who lets his daughter pursue something of which she knows she is good. We know from ASOS that he is proud of her - Jaime comments favourably on the size of Tarth’s ransom offered . And in this chapter there are further indications that Brienne’s relationship with her father is a respectful and loving one.

The most interesting part for me though, was Brienne’s meeting with the two hedge knights.

Ser Creighton Longbow and Ser Illiver the Penniless appear in Brienne’s adventure on the northern road in a similar manner to the way the two old grifter/actors appeared in Huckleberry Finn’s adventures on the Mississippi river. It made me wonder if there is not more to these two semi-ratbags than meets the eye. This re-read has convinced me that we will be seeing those two again. There is resolution to be had in Longbows story of the knight of the bood-red chicken And then there is the fascinating Ser Illiver.

Ser Illiver the shrewd guesser! whose name sounds like Ser Ilyn and whose shield which Brienne notes to be “gold and ermine gyronny†bears a striking resemblance to The deep purple checkered field and gold coins of the Payne Coat of Arms. Just squint a little and the black and ermine gyronny with gold - translation - black and white checks of an even number and gold checks could be the Payne colours as seen at dusk through the smoke of a fire. Ser Illiver’s Nom de Guerre - the penniless - could be a clever play on the aforesaid gold coins on the Payne escutcheon. Interesting this plethora of Paynes. I wonder what it all means?

[Happy Ent]

TR, I hope you will continue with you highly readable contributions.

Interesting this plethora of Paynes.

Some time ago I started a funny thread on about "collective nouns for the major houses". We already have "a pride of Lannisters" and a "fury of Freys" in the books, after all.

The suggestion (I forget by whom) was a world of Paynes. "Plethora" is fine as well, of course.

(The best answer was "a brick of Brax".)

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Once again, very nice chapter. I don't think Brienne comes out as dumb at all. She started by asking Brella and she apparently also asked in the port, before taking to the road. Assuming that Sansa is traveling with Dontos seems reasonable , considering what Brienne knows.

It seems reasonable that she asks for thirteen years old maiden, etc., but I get annoyed by all those people cracking jokes about Sansa not being a maiden anymore. Argh.

Nice catch about High Septon. I completely missed it . The future High Septon looks rather nice here, not the grim fanatic we see later. We first see the new religious resurgence in riverlands which will play so major role later on.

Both hedge knights also seem nice. Brienne thinks: If I am to fear such like these, I'd better change this sword for the pair of knitting rods (or something like this, I don't have the book at hand). I think it is the only case Brienne comes up with actual one-liner. Ser Illifer is also quite shrewd, guessing Brienne's identity. They also acted nice, believing in Brienne's oath.

We get to know that others also seek Sansa and we are intoduced to Mad Mouse. It surely will be important later on.

We also see a lot of Brienne's background, we get to know how insecure she feels and why she loved Renly. It is quite important, because we will see in teh next chapters how Jaime slowly replaces Renly as object of her affection.

[Happy Ent]

Ser Illifer is also quite shrewd, guessing Brienne's identity.

This is actually an impressively realised information dump: "Behold the Maid of Tarth who blabla". It's there to tell newcomers/remind us about what Brienne is supposed to have done to Renly. I am no amateur writer, so I don't care about these technical details as much as some other board members, but the exchange is a very good example of GRRM's craftsmanship. (And he gets characterisation and dramatic mileage from it as well, or course. Very concise.)

[LadySoftheart]

the more I read about the Evenstar the more I like this Lord who lets his daughter pursue something of which she knows she is good. We know from ASOS that he is proud of her - Jaime comments favourably on the size of Tarth’s ransom offered . And in this chapter there are further indications that Brienne’s relationship with her father is a respectful and loving one.

Heh! One of the reasons I love these rereads is that I come across completely different interpretations that had never occurred to me before. I had the opposite impression from you, Thynessa, of Brienne's relationship with her father - in ACoK, she tells Catelyn about the many beautiful women who were her father's mistresses over the years and when Catelyn asks if she ever sang for Renly or her father, Brienne says "no." (There's something very significant about the singing/not singing, I think and I wonder if there's going to be a Brienne the Bard bit or something at some point).

Furthermore, I have the impression that Brienne at least believes her father is disappointed in her - and the ransom, well, Jaime thinks its a generous one for a knight, but for Selwyn's only child? Maybe not so much, even if we take his relative poverty into account. As for encouraging Brienne to become a fighter - I don't thing we've seen enough to know that for sure: apparently he didn't object to it, but he also seems to have tried to keep betrothing Brienne to people even though he knew it made her bitterly unhappy (and she IS his only heir, so it's not like she has to be married to have something), so I feel like he maybe had no understanding of what made her tick. We don't know how he feels about her going off to follow Renly - we only have Brienne's feeling that he's bitterly disappointed in the fact that she's his only surviving child (and Brienne is perceptive enough that even if she is exaggerating Selwyn's disappointment, I think there is probably some basis in fact there). She has no happy memories of her childhood either - the one sort of happy-ish one is of her sword-training, but that's counterbalanced by the miserable ones (there's no Dany-memory-of-the-house with the red door and the kind knight or something). So ... I dunno.

In other words, I don't see Selwyn as the Ned to Brienne's Arya, but more as a perhaps well-intentioned Hoster Tully-ish figure who does what he thinks is best for his problematic daughter, but whose efforts are really not working so well.

Oh, one more thing - we're never given a last name for Brienne right? Interesting!

Lastly, HappyEnt, I agree - I found the Brienne chapters a beautifully written blend between giving us (and Brienne) information she needed AND advancing our knowledge of this gentle and damaged girl.

[Urri]

Oh, one more thing - we're never given a last name for Brienne right? Interesting!

Good catch! With the whole "Maid of Tarth" and her father beeing called "the Evenstar" etc. it's easy to miss. But you're totally right there: we never get a house name for Brienne or her father. This is interesting, indeed.

[Maia]

Good catch! With the whole "Maid of Tarth" and her father beeing called "the Evenstar" etc. it's easy to miss. But you're totally right there: we never get a house name for Brienne or her father. This is interesting, indeed.

Tarth _is_ the House name, IMHO. Wasn't there a knight in NW called Ser Endrow Tarth? Also, if Lord Selwyn was so disappointed in Brienne why didn't he remarry and try to get another heir?

What seems incogrous and somewhat irritating to me in Brienne's chapters is that everybody immediately sees that she is a woman, as long as she isn't wearing her helmet. This is wholly unrealistic for the period with rather rigid gender roles and clothing codes, IMHO. She is huge, wearing mail, has a coarse face with the broken nose. Why would anybody think that she is anything else but a man, if a little odd one?! Her _voice_ might have been a problem, but even so it would be more natural to suppose an unfortunate wound or that "his" voice didn't break yet (it often used to happen _much_ later in the past. Hence the ease with which those rare women who chose to maskerade as men got away with it).

Oh, and the fact that nobody recognises Brienne's voice as female when she is wearing her helmet is, of course, a big hint that Lyanna might have been KOTL. Jaime's thought that jousting is 3 quarters horsemanship is another big hint in that direction.

[LadySoftheart]

Tarth _is_ the House name, IMHO. Wasn't there a knight in NW called Ser Endrow Tarth?

Is it? Tarth IS a place ("a ghastly island in the Narrow Sea") but no one else who's a lord of anything is called simply by their place name. The Starks are "The Starks of Winterfell"; the Lannisters are the "Lannisters of Casterly Rock" - but they're never referred to as Robb Winterfell or Jaime Casterly, right? Nor are they called Bran of Stark. And to take a much less important house, Addam Marbrand of Ashemark isn't called Adam Ashemark or Adam of Ashemark. So I'm not so certain Tarth is the House name - I think Martin is being coy with the surnames so we don't all immediately go "aha! She really is Dunk's great-great-granddaughter" or whatever would be obvious if we knew.

Also, if Lord Selwyn was so disappointed in Brienne why didn't he remarry and try to get another heir?

Well, I think that argues that perhaps he's not as disappointed in her as she thinks he is; but I don't think Brienne believes her father loves her a great deal. Her memories of him don't seem to be all that positive.

What seems incogrous and somewhat irritating to me in Brienne's chapters is that everybody immediately sees that she is a woman, as long as she isn't wearing her helmet.

Well, she has very long hair (I think? I seem to remember this) - in fact, I always wondered why she didn't just crop it short; and ... OK, this one I can't really explain. Maybe she wears open-necked shirts and everyone can see she has no beard or stubble and no Adam's apple and that's how they realize she's a woman.

Oh, and the fact that nobody recognises Brienne's voice as female when she is wearing her helmet is, of course, a big hint that Lyanna might have been KOTL. Jaime's thought that jousting is 3 quarters horsemanship is another big hint in that direction.

Hmmm! I never really thought about that - but it's true. I mean, Loras is a very slender, slight figure, apparently, but able to knock of Jaime and of course the Mountain (albeit with a trick) in a couple of tournaments.

[Urri]

Tarth _is_ the House name, IMHO. Wasn't there a knight in NW called Ser Endrow Tarth?

Hm , you're probably right. At least the Citadel lists the house as "House Tarth of Evenfall Hall". And yet it is a bit strange that Brienne is never called "Lady Tarth" but allways the "Lady of Tarth" (at least when she isn't call "wench", "woman" or "freak")

@LadySoftheart: I thought this too at first. But there are several examples of house names and house seat being the same, most commonly on the Iron Isles (Harlaw, or the Saltcliffs of Saltcliff) but there are also the Ashfords of Ashford in the Reach or the Crakehalls of Crakehall in the Westerlands.

[LadySoftheart]

I thought this too at first. But there are several examples of house names and house seat being the same, most commonly on the Iron Isles (Harlaw, or the Saltcliffs of Saltcliff) but there are also the Ashfords of Ashford in the Reach or the Crakehalls of Crakehall in the Westerlands.

Agreed; but I do think there are many more examples of "Lord So-And-So OF Somewhere" (Yes, Crakehall of Crakehall so we could have Tarth of Tarth, and also there are many more examples like Mallister of Seagard, Mormont of Bear Island, Brax of Hornvale, Redwyne of the Arbor, Westerling of the Crag, etc. which seem to be scattered throughout Westeros.) So I think the jury's still out and it ties in somehow to our suspicion that Brienne is the descendant of Dunk that Martin's mentioned before.

[The hairy bear]

LS,

The other island from the Stormlands, Estermont, is ruled by Eldon Estermont.

Casterly Rock was originally ruled by house Casterly, until Lann the Clever tricked them out of their seat.

I think Brienne's house name is Tarth. It's a bit odd, however, that's the only house whose members are called "of X": we've never heard of Lord Rodrik of Harlaw, Lord Horton of Redfort, Lord Cley of Cerwyn, Lady Larra of Blackmont,...

[Jon Targaryen]

I don't have much to add after all the comments. My only question is when in TWOW or maybe ADWD the Iron Throne will hear that Sansa is with Littlefinger. The Mad Mouse has found her by the end of AFFC.

[Wouter]

Shadrich has found her, but not necessarily recognized her already (he only has a rather vague description, not her portrait!). THe question is also, what will he do if he finds her? In this chapter, he says that Varys has offered a plump bag of gold for Sansa - presumably for the girl herself, not just for info on her whereabouts. Would he go to Qyburn now, instead? Or to some random Lannister? Kidnapping her from the Vale would be extremely difficult though.

Shadrich certainly comes over as clever and dangerous in this chapter, and he seems quietly confident of his worth in combat.

I don't think that the people in the common room of the inn visited by Brienne were saying mean things about Jaime - only that he had lost his hand, and Shadrich makes the (very correct) remark that fighting with the "off" hand isn't easy. What did strike me was that the north has an unsavoury reputation - Creighton says that nothing good has ever come from the north, after asserting that a direwolf bit off Jaime's hand. Nothmen and their gods aren't very popular in the KL area, it seems safe to say.

Creighton and Illifer really are quite religious (allthough not enough to join the Sparrows); they are content to believe Brienne (on Renly) once she swears by the seven, Illifer stating that the gods will sort her out if she lied. This in addition to their regard for septons and the like.

Another rather surprising point is that Brienne thinks very ill of Tyrion - by reputation he may be the most cruelest of all Lannisters, she claims. She even thinks that Tyrion may have forced Sansa to participate in Joffrey 's murder (interestingly, she seems to have been influenced by Jaime's belief that Sansa must have been involved, which she initially disbelieved). It's a bit curious that Brienne believes this despite having spoken to Brella, who must have known Tyrion (and Cersei) at least somewhat. She also briefly considers the possibilty that the Lannisters may have already killed Sansa, but rejects this as she thinks Jaime to be sincere. I wonder if Pod ever set her straight on Tyrion.

[LadySoftheart]

I don't think that the people in the common room of the inn visited by Brienne were saying mean things about Jaime

Wouter, yes, of course you are right - they are only talking about whether he is really a cripple, and then Brienne remembers how monstrous she thought his maiming was (echoing Jaime's own thoughts expressed earlier and in ASoS about how a good clean death is preferable to being crippled, although I daresay he might disagree with that now!) Nevertheless, it's clear that this is just a really painful subject for Brienne. I think it was a later scene in an inn that I was thinking of when someone says that they can't be ruled by the Kingslayer because he's an oathbreaker, and Brienne looks so sad that the nice dwarf (whose head is brought to Cersei later - sigh!) comments on it.

She even thinks that Tyrion may have forced Sansa to participate in Joffrey 's murder (interestingly, she seems to have been influenced by Jaime's belief that Sansa must have been involved, which she initially disbelieved). It's a bit curious that Brienne believes this despite having spoken to Brella, who must have known Tyrion (and Cersei) at least somewhat. She also briefly considers the possibilty that the Lannisters may have already killed Sansa, but rejects this as she thinks Jaime to be sincere. I wonder if Pod ever set her straight on Tyrion.

This whole thing is fascinating, because I'm also thinking that Brienne recognizes from the get-go that Jaime doesn't believe that Tyrion killed Joffrey. And she hasn't had a chance to chat with Jaime after Tywin's killing, so it's not the 'kinslayer' thing that's giving her such a bad opinion of Tyrion... If she's starting to believe Jaime's version that Sansa had something to do with killing Joff, why isn't she believing his version that his little brother had nothing to do with it. I hope Pod DOES set her straight on Tyrion because I hate to have one of my favorite characters think so poorly of another of my favorite characters. And also, I feel like Brienne is falling into the same trap as everyone else which is that Tyrion is ugly and a dwarf and therefore he must be evil - whereas Brienne of all people ought to know that inner and outer beauty aren't related!

Another thing I've noticed as we talk about things here is that Brienne seems to encounter at least two people whom Cersei encounters later with almost polar opposite results: the future High Septon, who is quite kind and moderate and wishes Brienne well, but seems to be antithetical to Cersei from the get-go (thus proving he is a shrewd judge of character); and that poor, sweet dwarf whose head ends up in a bag in Cersei's possession ... Although we didn't get the juxtaposition of Dany vs. Cersei in this book which Martin had originally planned, I notice that a lot of Brienne chapters seem to come just after or just before Cersei chapters - so we are, I think, getting some sense of contrast. Brienne, mockingly called the Beauty, who really is a very lovely person (IMO) and Cersei who IS beautiful and who has relied on her beauty all her life, even as she resents that that is what she has to do. And the contrast comes out maybe even more as they both reflect on their childhood experiences.

[Oathkeeper]

Hm , you're probably right. At least the Citadel lists the house as "House Tarth of Evenfall Hall". And yet it is a bit strange that Brienne is never called "Lady Tarth" but allways the "Lady of Tarth" (at least when she isn't call "wench", "woman" or "freak")

Yep, it's nearly always Brienne, Brienne the Beauty, the Maid of Tarth, etc. In AFFC, Lord Tarly calls her Lady Brienne, once. It seems to me that in Westeros, you only get to call yourself Lord/Lady HouseName if you're the ruling couple. Only Ned gets to be Lord Stark; only Catelyn gets to be Lady Stark. Sansa is always Lady Sansa, or simply Sansa Stark. When Bran is 'ruling' the North, even he is not called Lord Stark; merely the Stark in Winterfell. So it doesn't seem very odd to me that Brienne is not Lady Tarth; Lady Tarth would be her father's wife. She is merely Lady Brienne, and, like many knights and younger sons, she's just taken on a special style for her name. A knight can hardly style herself a lady, even if she is one.

[Thynessa Reed]

Happy Ent, I think a world of Paynes is far preferable to a plethora of Paynes - although I would consider a Window to be just as good. A Brick of Brax is brill

Lady S, Yeah I see what you mean about the Evenstar but too me he sounds pretty reasonable considering the times. Just imagine if Brienne had a father like Tywin Lannister!

Maia, (is that you MaiaB ) Yes - Brienne's face must have a very feminine cast to it because it can't be the just length of her hair which decides her sex for the beholders once she is helmless. Rhaegar had long hair and I bet no-one mistook him for a girl.

[LadySoftheart]

Lady S, Yeah I see what you mean about the Evenstar but too me he sounds pretty reasonable considering the times. Just imagine if Brienne had a father like Tywin Lannister!

Thynessa, I agree that the Evenstar (and how funny that I always think HE must have been beautiful because I associate that title with Arwen Evenstar ) does seem to have tried to do his best by her as far as possible, and certainly is far more tolerant than some Westerosian parents (not just Tywin; what about Randyll Tarly and Sam, poor dear? And Hoster Tully may have acted out of love for his children, but I still think he treated Lysa pretty terribly, and Walder Frey is, err, not the best parent I've ever seen!) Anyway, still, it's clear that Brienne feels she has been a terrible disappointment to him, which suggests that he wasn't brim-full of unconditional love for his daughter (or didn't demonstrate it, anyway). I feel more like he gave her up as a bad job (who knows why he didn't remarry and sire more heirs?) - but I really would like to meet him and see what he's like, because Brienne is herself so interesting a blend of innocence and experience. And Brienne is all alone in Renly's train - there are none of her father's men-at-arms or anything so I almost feel like he didn't approve of/know about her going off to join Renly's entourage... Is her fascination with handsome men who treat her kindly (Renly) or not-so-kindly in words at any rate (Jaime) somehow related to something about her father?

She does seem to dwell much more on her times post-Tarth than on life there. And interestingly, her memories of Tarth are either traumatic ones having to do with the betrothals or dealing with her father's employees like the Septa and the master-at-arms. There isn't much of Brienne thinking about her FATHER specifically. So I'm just exceedingly curious. Was he a noted knight? Is he perhaps crippled or something so he can't father more children? He doesn't seem to have taken part in any of the wars - he's never mentioned as doing so, is he?

Maia, (is that you MaiaB ) Yes - Brienne's face must have a very feminine cast to it because it can't be the just length of her hair which decides her sex for the beholders once she is helmless. Rhaegar had long hair and I bet no-one mistook him for a girl.

Good point! Even though everyone sees her as an ugly woman, it seems that no one ever thinks she looks like a man - other than body-wise (i.e. her face must be a giveaway even when she's in men's clothes.) Perhaps it's just something as simple as not having stubble, but I feel that perhaps it's more than that.

[Reposado]

i always had the impression that the even star was old. i think it comes from the way he was talked baout in previous books. it'd be hard to find a reference.

that might explain soem of the distance as well, if he was well past his prime and out of fighting condition by the time she was growing up.

[the sweetling]

About the Evenstar's name, we learn it (and hear it several times afterwards) in ACOK (Catelyn 2) from Ser Colen :

“Because he is no man, my lady. That’s Brienne of Tarth, daughter to Lord Selwyn the Evenstar.â€

[LadySoftheart]

About the Evenstar's name, we learn it (and hear it several times afterwards) in ACOK (Catelyn 2) from Ser Colen :

“Because he is no man, my lady. That’s Brienne of Tarth, daughter to Lord Selwyn the Evenstar.â€

Errr, yes, we know he's 'the Evenstar' but I don't think that's his last name - I always thought it was like Tyrion the Imp, or Jaime the Kingslayer... Someone gave him that as a nickname and that's that. So I still don't believe we know Brienne's family name, unless they are the Tarths of Tarth.

BaelorBreakspear, perhaps the Evenstar being older than we'd expect from the father of a 19-20 year old girl IS the explanation; although he seems to have had a series of hottie girlfriends, and not being a very wealthy man ... I wonder where they all came form. All in all, I find him a very mysterious character which kind of adds to the mystery of Brienne - I mean, she is, in and of herself, almost transparently good-hearted and decent, but I can't shake the feeling that there IS some mystery about her family that we will only find out about later.

(And if I were really going to go off on insane theories, perhaps this is when I'd start speculating that she too, like Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei, is a child of Aerys Hee!)