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AFFC Reread Project - Sansa


cteresa

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Thread to discuss Sansa´s PoV chapters. Provisory schedule dates to start such discussion,

Page numbers are from the Uk hardback

9-Jan-06 Sansa 1 page 145 to 158

20-Fev-06 Sansa 2 page 329 to 343

24-Abr-06 Sansa 3 page 605 to 627

Will change above if there are any mistakes (please let me know!) or alterations.

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  • 1 month later...

Petyr establishes that the title of Keeper of the Gates of the Moon, currently held by Nestor Royce, will be hereditary and signs the proclamation under his own name, thus securing the man’s loyalty.

Petyr as a player in the game of thrones is amazing to witness. He is a master at the craft, equal to Varys, whom holds a demigod like status in the eyes of nobles and commoners alike. How did Peter become so gifted living in that tower on the Fingers? I didn’t think so when I read aSoS but of course, Petyr manipulated the whole affair with the kiss to enrage Lysa. He would not have been so sloppy with Sansa without a purpose. His goal of course was to kill Lysa to gain the seat of the Erie. But how could he be sure to do so neatly? To be sure, he is excellent at improvising even the most dangerous of situations.

Does the song “On a Misty Morn†(pg 149) have some double meaning ?

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Personally, I feel that the Sansa chapters in A Feast for Crows were the slowest and least interesting, even though I love Littlefinger's scheming. But in this book I feel his scheming becomes a bit to Palpatine-ish, a bit too convenient in places IMO. I love the Eyrie as a location though, the white and blue, the marble halls, the heights, the sky cells, the moon door...awesome place :D

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There is nothing in this chapter to verify my favourite Varys Planned It All! theory, so let me lead you down a different track into crackpot land Nobody is Marillion.

It's half-baked, and I am not even sure what my theory is, but something is fishy. Hear me out.

At the core of the conundrum is the fact that Marillion plays along with LF's plan. Why? He has precious little to gain. He also knows that LF is a killer, having witnessed the murder of Lysa. Marillion cannot trust Littflefinger, no matter what he promises. He must see himself as a dead man. Why not spill the beans to Lord Nestor? That's a nonzero chance of survival. If he goes back to the dungeon, his chances are zero. And he knows it.

So I claim that Marillion isn't Marillion. The real Marillion is long gone. (He may be the Blue Bard, but that is another crackpot theory that we will leave on the stove to simmer until we get to the relevant Cersei chapter.)

What makes me so suspicious—apart from my basic distrust in life forms that do not use photosynthesis—is the fact that the singer (or singers) are almost never called Marillion. Sansa calls him "the singer" or "the dead man". One instance where she actually uses the name it almost sounds as if she needs to correct herself:

"My Lord, what if... if Marillion tells what truly..."

"If he lies, you mean?"

What did Sansa really want to say? ("My Lord, what if Aegon..." Just kidding.)

Also, the "dead man in the sky cell" has a different voice:

The singer's voice was strong and sweet. Sansa thought he sounded better than he ever had before, his voice richer somehow, full of pain and fear and longing. She did not understand why the gods would have given such a voice to such a wicked man. He would have taken me by force on the Fingers if Petyr had not set Ser ... And he played to drown out my cries when Aunt Lysa tried to kill me.
However, in this passage she seems to think that "the singer" is the same man as Marillion. (Though the passage is inconclusive. She compares two voices. The "wicked man" must be Marillion.)

The man paraded in front of Lord Nestor has a different voice again:

"If I had eyes I should weep." The singer's voice, so strong and sure by night, was cracked and whispery now.

Note that we cannot use the fact that Sansa actually thinks of the prisoner and the presented man as Marillion (one or two instances) as proof of anything. She thinks of herself as Alayne, and of LF as father, and increasingly so. The Sansa chapters are all about Sansa

"living the lie", and using the aliases even in her internal monologue. She needs to think of the faux Marillion as "Marillion", as does so.

But most of the time it's "the singer". Here are all instances I could find in the chapter that refer to Marillion, including "the singer", "the dead man", "Marillion" and just "him". Make up your own mind:

... only rats and gaolers would have heard the dead man sing.

...so every chord the dead man played...

The singer's voice was strong and sweet. Sansa thought he sounded better than he ever had before, his voice richer somehow, full of pain and fear and longing. She did not understand why the gods would have given such a voice to such a wicked man. He would have taken me by force on the Fingers if Petyr had not set Ser ... And he played to drown out my cries when Aunt Lysa tried to kill me.

... "can't you make him stop?" ... "I've given him my word, sweetling... I'd sooner suffer his singing than listen to him sobbing."

"He won't... you won't let Lord Nestor see Marillion, will you?"

"We have come to an agreement, Marillion and I. Mord can be most persuasive. And if our singer disappoints us and sings a song we do not care to hear, why ..."

"My Lord, what if... if Marillion tells what truly..."

"If he lies, you mean?"

That night the dead man sang "The Day They Hanged Black Robin", ... When she closed her eyes she could see him in his sky cell, huddled in a corner away from the cold black sky, crouched beneath a fur with his woodharp cradled against his chest. I must pity him, she told herself. He was vain and cruel, and soon will be dead. She could not save him, And why should she want to? Marillion tried to rape her...

After "Alysanne" the singer stopped again,... The mother sings her grief for her dead son, Sansa thought, but Marillion grieves for his fingers, for his eyes.

He turned to his guardsmen and spoke a command, and the singer was fetched up from the dungeons. The gaoler Mord came with him... Marillion by contrast looked almost elegant. Someone had bathed him... White silk gloves covered his hands, while a white silk bandage spared the lords the sight of his eyes. ... When the gaoler prodded him in the ribs, the signer went to one knee.

"If I had eyes I should weep." The singer's voice, so strong and sure by night, was cracked and whispery now. ... Sansa stared at his hands while he spoke.... Mord grabbed Marillion by the collar. ... They watched as he half dragged half shoved the singer towards the doors.

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Personally, I don't think that the Sansa chapters are that much slower and more boring than the other POV chapters. The main reason for my interest is certainly not Sansa, however (not yet, anyway), but Petyr, who is so brilliant in his machinations. I find him to be one of the most interesting characters in the story, on a par with Varys.

Some thoughts on this chapter:

- Sansa thinks at one point, "Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey." (p. 148) Later in the book, if I remember correctly, we find her and Petyr in conversation discussing the need for Tyrion to die before she can be wed to another. I don't remember that conversation very well, but I guess we have to assume that she was disabused of the idea that he was dead off stage between this chapter and the later one.

- Mord says to Marillion, as he grabs him to take him back to his cell, "No more mouth." (p. 154)My assumption is that he was torturing Marillion (a fact confirmed by Petyr) and now telling Marillion that, since was a good boy in supporting Petyr's lies, he would not lose more fingers and other flesh to those gold teeth.

- Petyr is so smooth in the "trial" scene, that I get a great thrill in reading it. This is a wonderful character! He is so devious and perhaps even evil, but we can't know for sure about that yet.

Geoff

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Once more I find myself in awe of Happy Ent's theory spinning powers. :bow: :) (That does not mean that you have convinced me though. :P )

I also noted the line about Tyrion being executed. It might help in dating this chapter. The other thing I gleaned from it is that the thought of running back to Tyrion had crossed Sansa's mind - the Sansa :love: Tyrion theorisers need not (yet) despair.

Basically in this chapter we see that Sansa is beginning to grow up. She remembers what Lysa said before she died. She is beginning to understand that she cannot trust LF, and that he lies to her. He is teaching her about the game or thrones, as expected. She is learning to lie, and, crucially, has started to lie to him.

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- Mord says to Marillion, as he grabs him to take him back to his cell, "No more mouth." (p. 154)My assumption is that he was torturing Marillion (a fact confirmed by Petyr) and now telling Marillion that, since was a good boy in supporting Petyr's lies, he would not lose more fingers and other flesh to those gold teeth.

He's simply telling Marillion to shut up, in his own charming way.

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A good chapter. Littlefinger manages to start using his nominal power over the Vale to get useful political allies. Quite clever. Sansa starts playing the Game.

Regarding Happy Ent's theory, I noted the following:

Marillions eyes are hidden by the bandage - convenient, it hides part of his face. His voice is described as cracked and whispery - a good way of hiding the voice of a different man. Sansa thinks that it's hard to tell if his fingers really have been cut off because of the gloves he is wearing - this as well supports the theory that LF is displaying an impostor. I could buy this theory!

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Regarding Happy Ent's theory, I noted the following:

Marillions eyes are hidden by the bandage - convenient, it hides part of his face. His voice is described as cracked and whispery - a good way of hiding the voice of a different man. Sansa thinks that it's hard to tell if his fingers really have been cut off because of the gloves he is wearing - this as well supports the theory that LF is displaying an impostor. I could buy this theory!

Yes, the fact that he wore a bandage on his face "to spare the lords the sight of his eyes" and that Sansa couldn't tell if he was missing fingers or not made me suspicious as well. It didn't occur to me that Marillion might not be Marillion, though. But looking over it again, there's another passage that makes me think Marillion might really be dead, and Sansa knows it:

..."Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No", Sansa said. "Please."

Marillion's blood could simply be his eyes and his fingers, but with Ser Dontos behind him it almost seems to imply something else. But perhaps that's my imagination. I'm not sold on the idea that Marillion is an imposter. But then the question becomes: Why did Marillion agree to help Littlefinger? To save his own life. He's dead if he stays in the cells, and while telling Nestor and the others what really happened might work, chances are slim. As Littlefinger says, "If our singer disappoints us and sings a song we do not care to hear, why, you and I need only say he lies. Whom do you imagine Lord Nestor will believe?" I think Littlefinger isn't stretching the truth too much there, and Marillion is probably bright enough to realize it. So Marillion is simply taking the best of several bad options. But then we have to ask...if it makes no difference if Marillion lies or tells the truth, why does Littlefinger want him to confess to the crime? Just so there's absolutely no doubt? Or is there more he gets out it?

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Yes, the fact that he wore a bandage on his face "to spare the lords the sight of his eyes" and that Sansa couldn't tell if he was missing fingers or not made me suspicious as well. It didn't occur to me that Marillion might not be Marillion, though. But looking over it again, there's another passage that makes me think Marillion might really be dead, and Sansa knows it:

I read this differently. I prefer the simpler explanation that he was bandaged because his eyes were torn out and Petyr wanted to spare others the sight of the sockets. This imposter possibility didn't occur to me. Interesting thought, though. Hmmm...Like you, I'm not quite buying into it yet.

..."Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?"

Marillion's face seemed to float before her, the bandage pale across his eyes. Behind him she could see Ser Dontos, the crossbow bolts still in him. "No", Sansa said. "Please."

Even if it is not Marillion, I don't see this as evidence that Sansa knows it. If she thought him already dead, then whose death would it be that would add to the blood on her hands? Surely the imposter would not be killed. He is simply doing Petyr a valuable service. Maybe I'm slow today, but I don't see the connection.

Marillion's blood could simply be his eyes and his fingers, but with Ser Dontos behind him it almost seems to imply something else. But perhaps that's my imagination. I'm not sold on the idea that Marillion is an imposter. But then the question becomes: Why did Marillion agree to help Littlefinger? To save his own life. He's dead if he stays in the cells, and while telling Nestor and the others what really happened might work, chances are slim. As Littlefinger says, "If our singer disappoints us and sings a song we do not care to hear, why, you and I need only say he lies. Whom do you imagine Lord Nestor will believe?" I think Littlefinger isn't stretching the truth too much there, and Marillion is probably bright enough to realize it. So Marillion is simply taking the best of several bad options. But then we have to ask...if it makes no difference if Marillion lies or tells the truth, why does Littlefinger want him to confess to the crime? Just so there's absolutely no doubt? Or is there more he gets out it?

Petyr certainly benefits by a confession. It makes it very difficult to doubt his story.

Marillion gets to continue stay alive for now (as you said) and to play his music and sing. I also remember that no one seems to be saying he will be thrown from the cliffs. Nestor says, "No man lingers long in the sky cells. The blue will call to him." If I were Marillion, I'd figure I should do what I need to stay alive and untortured, and wait to see what unexpected opportunities the future brings.

BTW, we are led to believe that his eyes have been torn out with bandages hiding the nastiness, and some fingers removed, something that Sansa cannot confirm to herself. Is it at all possible that neither has been done and that Marillion's apparent condition was part of the show, even if it is indeed Marillion? When it comes to Petyr, the lack of information about his personality leads me to easily conjure up conspiracies on top of conspiracies. That's one of the reasons I like the way Martin has drawn him so far.

Geoff

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I agree that there is something fishy about Marllion. Impostor doesn't seem likely, though. How come Littlefinger would have another singer at and, and one looking sufficiently like Marillion, too? I think it is more likely that Littlefinger promised Marillion to spare him, perhaps send him to the Wall, if he confesses, but this theory also has difficulties. We will have to wait and see.

Sansa is becoming Littlefinger's tool. I hoped she will prove more independent, but she even goes as far that she rationalizes Littlefinger's misdeeds by dividing him into two personalities Littlefinger and lord Petyr. Not good sign, IMHO.

LF is clearly trying to implicate Sansa in his crimes, show her that she is no better than he - hence the mention of blood in her hands. I think he will try to manipulate her into giving poison to young Robert heelf.

Littlefinger indeed manipulates the Vale lords quite cleverly, but it is his home ground and he knows those people very well and has longtime allies among them. I am of the opinion that LF is losing contactwith reality - as in his mentioning Tyrion's imminent death in the third chapter - and his awakening may be very brutal. But we will discuss it when we come to the last Sansa chapter.

All in all, this chapter didn't make me to like Sansa any better. She is still her usual self and as such probably no match for Littlefinger.

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I think it is more likely that Littlefinger promised Marillion to spare him, perhaps send him to the Wall, if he confesses, but this theory also has difficulties.

It has been suggested that Marillion received a new identity from Littlefinger and now is spying for him in King's Landing. (Remember that Marillion is accused of having killed Lady Lysa. There is no way he can go on being Marillion. He cannot even be sent to the Wall, given that LF makes promises to the Vale Lords about having him killed/rot in the sky cells.) I think that is plausible: if Marillion survives this, he can no longer be Marillion.

Which leads to Marillion is the Blue Bard. We'll discuss that when we get there.

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The song of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies is probably one of grief and sadness. That makes sense with what the ghost of high heart has conveyed.

Littlefinger has the measure of his man. “Our lies will profit him.â€

Perhaps Sansa fully taking on the role of Alayne later on has something to do with her seeing the two faces of Littlefinger – Littelfinger and Petyr.

Sansa fails to think of Arya or Jon.

I wonder if the sad song Alysanne has to do with Alysanne Targaryen.

So the Gates of the Moon was usually a seat for the Arryn heir, like Dragonstone for the Targaryen heir. Interesting.

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Happy Ent your theory is so fascinating I re-re-read the Sansa chapter and you are right. Something is definitely up with the minstrel.

I think the minstrel and Baelish are in cahoots; Marillion helps in Baelish's carefully orchestrated scare campaign against Sansa and Robin by singing every night the most tragic songs of Westeros.

Baelish promises Marillion a road to freedom by telling him that if he let's Littlefinger pretend he has blinded and crippled the minstrel in front of the Vale Lords not only will it allow Baelish to appear satisfyingly viscious in taking reprisals on his dead wife but the sight of Marillion with only an elastoplast of a SILK bandage across his eyes and gloves elegantly covering his supposedly maimed hands - otherwise looking for all intents and purposes just like the little shit of a bastard that was allowed to mock them not so long ago by that stupid trout Lyssa - such a sight will inflame the Vale Lords into allowing Peter Baelish to achieve the following...

1/ Angered by bad memories of Marillion, the Vale Lords allow Peter Baelish to let them know in a couple of weeks time that Marillion has heard the "call of the blue" and no longer exists on this plane. Littlefinger need not even produce a body to satisfy the Lords which is really handy as Baelish has promised Marillion his old skin and a new identity in payment for the aforesaid nightly gigs. Also he can announce Marillion's suicide handily before the other Vale faction arrives to intervieew the minstrel.

2/ Also for the Vale Lords, The sight of Marillion will also bring back bad memories of Lyssa. In the wake of such unhappy rresurgances, the sight of Lord Baelish in charge of the Eyrie may come as a bit of a relief to them. Better a scheming young Baelish than a mad old trout, they will think. And besides - who wants the job of looking after Robert? Thanks to Littlefingers sleep deprivation tactics and nightmare inducing lullabies - the boy is a mess. Robert's fit would remind someone like Royce that the Arryn line is spent. Time for a new leader of the Vale.

3/ Littlefinger allows Royce's natural ambition free reign in the trauma of the Marillion/Robert moment. This enables him to plant the seeds of a future battle pitting Royce against Royce with the entire Vale lining up behind each of them and generally imploding.

Who but Sansa could imagine that a minstrel could sing beautifully (if somewhat inappropriately) every night despite having recently had his eyes gouged out without the benefit of anaesthetic - but that wasn't necessary because the minstrel is superhuman - the voice vibrations matter not to his poor blind head and it's the work of a moment to adapt himself to playing his harp with 8 (possibly only 7) fingers. And who but Sansa apart from Robin would be affected by a singing minstrel anyway? Who but Sansa would be frightened into such a heap - what with the sleep deprivation and everything - that when her own kin arrive - she can think of nothing but getting through the meeting NOT being spotted. Sansa's cringeing fear renders her invisible to the Vale Lords as Baelish knows. They could never equate a girl like that with Sansa Stark.

He's too clever for his own good that Littlefinger. He thinks he's sewn up the Vale and conned Sansa totally but there is still a little space inside of Sansa that is on her side.

That's where the little voice reminding her that Littlefinger never rushed to rescue in Kings Landing resides - that asks the question - so how overwhelming is his obsession with Catelyn really? And it's the part that wonders how Maddy her maid would know what happens in the dungeons. The part inside her that weeps when the Vale Lords leave.

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I wonder if the sad song Alysanne has to do with Alysanne Targaryen.

I think that's a fair assumption. The only other Alysanne GRRM has ever made reference to is Ser Eustace Osgrey’s daughter who became a silent sister. We know that Jaehaerys I lived to be an old man and his wife most likely died during his reign. I could see Alysanne Targaryen as a sort of Westeros Eva Peron (the Argentine political leader beloved of the commons).

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Yes, the Marillion is Blue Bard theory does sound convincing when put this way. I think I am converted to it, at least for now.

Neither am I myself. I would be really happy if we could argue that Marillion was smuggled out of the Eyrie using Robert's tapestries, but they were travelling the wrong way! Other than that, it's actually pretty hard to get anybody out of the Eyrie without quite a lot of people noticing. It would be a triumph for crackpotland if we could settle "How did Marillion get out?" and "What are the tapestries for?" at the same time...

It would mean Mariillion is really unlucky, though.

Yes. Imagine being tortured by Qyburn, and the real, real truth is that even though you didn't sleep with the queen, you actually killed the Lady of the Vale. Better stick to your half-remembered secret identity (cobbled together from various bits about the real Whitesmile Wat) and wave goodbye to those nipples.

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Computer crash ate my post argh!

About Alysanne, I don´t think it is necessarily about the queen, children are often named after monarchs ( check Frey family pages!) and we got examples of another Alysanne at least, it does not seem unusual it is instead about a girl named Alysanne.

Very different opinions all round, I don´t think Sansa´s chapters are slow, but then again I do think she is changing and it does not make me like her better. She is much better at lying now, not just at LF´s instigation, but having Robert locked at night and calling those who did "wicked". Ok, I sympathize, I understand, kindest way to handle a brattish 8 year old, but just pointing she is becoming more pragmatic.

Do we know what Robert´s shaking spells are?

A great line "Men of honor will do things for their children that they would never consider doing for themselves"

LF makes again a mention to the game of thrones. Later, on another chapter he makes a reference to the famous 5 year gap between books, in a way LF is the character which is closest to realizing that he is a character, or maybe closest to an authorial voice. He certainly explains the plot, and not just here to Sansa.

LF wears Stark colors to receive Nestor Royce. Probably accident, or do we know more about westeros mourning colors? Cersei uses pure black in funerals, what would a widower wear some months after his wife´s tragic death to receive one of her lords?

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Do we know what Robert´s shaking spells are?

I assumed epilepsy, based on the description. Any reason that would be in doubt?

A great line "Men of honor will do things for their children that they would never consider doing for themselves"

And a true line as well.

LF makes again a mention to the game of thrones. Later, on another chapter he makes a reference to the famous 5 year gap between books, in a way LF is the character which is closest to realizing that he is a character, or maybe closest to an authorial voice. He certainly explains the plot, and not just here to Sansa.

He mentions a 5 year gap? I don't remember that one. Could you cite a page number?

LF wears Stark colors to receive Nestor Royce.

Missed that one too. He is intending to have Sansa reclaim Winterfell, however. Maybe he is more attached to the idea and its ramifications than might be obvious at first reading.

Geoff

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