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AFFC Reread Project - Sansa


cteresa

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I assumed epilepsy, based on the description. Any reason that would be in doubt?

tantrums seemed another possibility to me. I was asking if we knew for sure it was epilepsy - say loss of sphincter control to id´it.

And a true line as well.

of course.

He mentions a 5 year gap? I don't remember that one. Could you cite a page number?

Argh, no want to find, had no notes yet, but you are in luck, found it easily enough after all, page 624 UK hb Littlefinger to Sansa "I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now... it is a good thing I thrive in chaos." and then just follows the bit of the three queens which causes a lot of speculation.

No Stark colors, sorry, my mistake, Stark colors are grey and white right? Not grey and black - this must be just plain mourning.

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It is interesting what Sansa thinks of the songs the "dead man" sings (dead man sings ... a nod to GRRM's book songs Dead Men Sing? ;) ).

He sang of the Dance of Dragons, of fair Jonquil and her fool, of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies. He sang of betrayals, and murders most foul, of hanged men and bloody vengeance

The Dance of Dragons is about a betrayal, the betrayal of Rhaenyra to Aegon II. So, I assume "murders most foul" refers to Jonquil and Florian's song, and "hanged men and bloody vengeance" to Jenny of Oldstones's song.

I agree with Jon Targaryen and Jaehaerys, I also think the sad song "Alyssane" is about Jaehaerys' wife.

Mord's golden teeth are probably made with the gold Tyrion gave him (I don't remember any mention of his golden teeth in AGoT)

The Arryn Kings only lived in the Eirye during Summers, at any other season they lived at the Gates of the Moon. As in previous books it is said that the Eyrie has never been conquered, that may indicate that Aegon defeated the last King of the Vale at the Gates of the Moon.

A great line "Men of honor will do things for their children that they would never consider doing for themselves"

I think Littlefinger refers to Ned, when he admits he is a traitor to save Sansa and Arya's lives; and it could also refer to the lies Ned has told to protect Jon Snow :)

And about the "Marillion is the Blue Bard theory and the dead man is not marillion" I like it a lot but I am not yet convinced :rolleyes:

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  • 2 weeks later...

Did anyone else notice that Shadrich, a knight that harried Brienne for a while on her quest, has found Sansa? Does he realize it's her? Who is he going to tell?

The reveal is in the last scene of Sansa's last chapter, when she talks to Petyr in his solar.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have to agree that something is fishy about Marillion. Why would GRRM emphasize the point that his eyes are bandaged, his hand is hidden by a glove and his voice changes mysteriously several times.

But I have troubles accepting your quite elaborate conspiracy theories. Basically I have difficulties to see how potential doubles can (i) be brought up to the Eyrie, (ii) kept there, and (iii) brought back down again without widespread knowledge among the other residents (nobles and servants).

I have imagined the Eyrie as a rather small residence (due to the fact that it's hard to provision a whole lot of people up there). AFAIK there's only one person (Mya Stone) who ferries goods and people from the Gates past the waycastles up to the Eyrie. I would imagine that each and every of her arrival at the Eyrie will be an event (at least for the servants who'll have to receive the goods and the occasional visitor). So I doubt that any of her arrivals will remain unnoticed, hence if she's going to smuggle someone up or down it will be noticed by quite a lot of people (certainly it will be impossible to get someone up or down without Mya's knowledge and the knowledge of the guards in the waycastles). Moreover, I guess that the number of people living in the Eyrie is sufficiently small such that 'everybody knows everybody'. You cannot hide someone in anonymity.

Think about how difficult it was to smuggle someone (Sansa, Tyrion) out of the Red Keep. Even Arya, who was outside the Keep, but inside KL, wasn't easy to get out. And those places are huge with people coming and going probably in the thousands every day. How much more difficult it must be to smuggle someone in or out into a place populated by maybe a few dozen people which can only be reached by means of one day of serious hiking and climbing.

I'm not saying that any kind of switcheroo is impossible, but if anything like that has happened, I presume that quite a lot of people have had to be 'in it'. The list starts with Mya and all the guards in the waycastles, but it probably extends to most of the servants and other residents of the Eyrie, at which point, I believe it won't be kept a secret for long (especially since everybody now has left the Eyrie and can possibly spread the word).

HE or whoever supports the Marillion-conspiracy-theory, I would like to ask you:

1) How do you propose the double (or original) Marillion gets smuggled in (or out) of the Eyrie?

2) Who else (beside LF) will (must) have knowledge of it?

3) How many people do you think lived up there in the Eyrie anyway and how big is it? (i.e. how easy would it be to conceal a person from the others for some length of time. Consider the person has to eat, drink, poop, simply live somewhere without being discovered)

4) How might LF try to effectively stop people who know from spreading the story after they move down?

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HE or whoever supports the Marillion-conspiracy-theory, I would like to ask you:

1) How do you propose the double (or original) Marillion gets smuggled in (or out) of the Eyrie?

2) Who else (beside LF) will (must) have knowledge of it?

3) How many people do you think lived up there in the Eyrie anyway and how big is it? (i.e. how easy would it be to conceal a person from the others for some length of time. Consider the person has to eat, drink, poop, simply live somewhere without being discovered)

4) How might LF try to effectively stop people who know from spreading the story after they move down?

The double could have come from the retainers of the Lords who went up there to speak with LF.

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The double could have come from the retainers of the Lords who went up there to speak with LF.

You mean one of Corbray's possibly? Could be. Was there sufficient time to prepare that? IIRC some of the Lords knew Marillion from before, so I guess some preparation was needed. The gaoler had to be 'in it' though to keep the real Marillion quiet. If he had started singing while the fake one was interviewed by the Lords ... awkward situation. And it doesn't explain how the real Marillion was shuttled down from the Eyrie later (if he's to appear as the blue bard later in KL).

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SANSA II

I am not quite finished re-reading this chapter, but let me get the ball rolling.

I am all but convinced that Thynessa Reed is right in her analysis upthread. Let me expand on it: Marillion (or whoever the singer is) is still alive. He actually sings to Sweetrobin at night. Every night.

Why? To make the poor boy even crazier. "He needs his sleep" says the maester. "He is sleeping 12 hours every day" answers Petyr, knowing full well that the boy doesn't close an eye. Seizures ensue, worse than when Lysa was still alive. What does sweet Petyr suggest to help the poor boy? Dose him with Sweetsleep. The maester consents, reluctantly.

Petyr wants Robert Arryn will die. Poisoned from sweetsleep, or falling off a cliff, it makes no matter. Sansa has no idea about this. She thinks poor Sweetrobin is going crazy because he hears voices at night.

Timeline. All I can see is that Cersei has promised to send tapestries, so this chapter plays after the wonderful Smallest Council chapter.

Arboreal perspective. Robert has a wooden spoon, I think. The Eyrie chapter simply don't pack a lot of wood.

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Guest Other-in-law

I wasn't satisfied with the 'Marillion lives!" version of the 'switched singers' singers theory, and I'm still not. For one, Marillion is simply too dangerous to LF to be allowed to live, and Marillion (realising that) has no incentive to cut a deal with a man he can not trust.

However, after reading this thread, I am willing to accept a slightly different version of it which is where this discussion seems to be pointing, in which Marillion's best interests are entirely irrelevant:

Marillion sees the shove. LF quickly has him hustled off to a sky cell. Maybe Mord truly blinded the real Marillion, he's not too swift and it's probably not a good idea to have him be in on the secret....LF or someone reliable (papa Kettleblack, maybe) then quietly kills him in very short order, possibly that very night. A substitute singer is placed in the cells with bandages, dopey Mord is none the wiser. Fake Marillion confesses to Royce, everyone is happy, stays in cells for a while longer, then quietly released to resume his real (or at least non-Marillion) identity again. If he was no one important, his absence may have never even been noticed, or he could have supposedly been sent off on an errand and then returned.

This version has none of the problems that "the Blue Bard=Marillion" theory did, though there are still questions about the Blue Bard.

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I agree that something is definitely fishy about Marillion. I don't get it, though. If Robert is hearing real singing, then where is Marillion or his substitute hidden? Do we know if Littlefinger can sing? :P

A number of boarders have complained in the past that LF's plot with Lyn Corbray was too transparent. Personally, I didn't see it at all. OTOH, Bronze John seems to be very suspicious from the start. When considering how good LF's plan actually is I think it's important to note that he doesn't really have to fool all of the Lords Declarant all of the time, so to say. He just has to make them a bit unbalanced. Combined with his show of spine in declaring that he'll give the war if that's what they want, he makes them unsure enough to grant him a years respite. It doesn't really matter much if most of them eventually come to the conclusion that Lyn Corbray is LF's accomplice. Once they have sworn to retreat, they are stuck with that.

Finally what's the deal with these tapestries of Robert Baraethon's? Are they significant or simply a red herring?

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I agree that something is definitely fishy about Marillion. I don't get it, though. If Robert is hearing real singing, then where is Marillion or his substitute hidden? Do we know if Littlefinger can sing? :P

Marillion could be hidden anywhere within the Eyrie - he is only one person and (if my theory is correct) not blind, so he knows the layout of the place enough to stay out of people's way.

As for Petyr Baelish's singing abilities, Lol, I would not be very surprised if sometime in the future GRRM accords him a pleasant light tenor voice - but I doubt it. As Shakespeare has it - a man with no music in his soul is fit for only treason, strategems and spoils.

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Marillion could be hidden anywhere within the Eyrie - he is only one person and (if my theory is correct) not blind, so he knows the layout of the place enough to stay out of people's way.

Stay out of peoples way in general - sure. Stay out of peoples way while singing to little Robert every night - I have my doubts.

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[...] Fake Marillion confesses to Royce [...]

This version has none of the problems that "the Blue Bard=Marillion" theory did, though there are still questions about the Blue Bard.

Personnally, I would be quite disappointed with GRRM if the Marillion that was presented to Royce was not the real one.

First because it seems a bit far-fetched that Royce himself shouldn't recognise the "official" singer of the Eyrie when in the same room...

And second because it would mean that Sansa "hides" to us readers every of her feelings regarding the singer-switch (unless you assume that Sansa herself doesn't recognise the singer for a fake Marillion, which I hardly buy), and I can't remember any POV hiding feelings to us this way since the beginning of the series.

But then I guess you could argue that Sandor hiding his burns under his hood is a little far-fetched too, and that Sansa's behaviour shows that she's becoming like Littlefinger...

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And second because it would mean that Sansa "hides" to us readers every of her feelings regarding the singer-switch

But the Sansa chapter are about Sansa lying to herself who is who. She refers to herself as Alayne. She flat-out tells us that you need to live the lie, to believe it, to feel it. Not to reflect on it. Referring to Jon Doe as Marillion in her internal monologue could be part of the exercise.

But I don't buy it either. Nobody has so far found a really good theory.

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A REALLY GOOD THEORY.

Baelish and Marillion go waaaaaay back. They met when they were both a couple of Corbray's little boys. In fact, Marillion has probably been hiding in Littlefinger's bed.

Littlefinger trusts Marillion with many secret and sometimes onerous duties ie: being Lyssa Tully's lover, sneaking into Robert Arryn's room at night to sing etc.

In fact, after Sansa and young Robert descend to the Gates of the Moon Marillion makes his way to Gulltown where a ship is waiting to carry him to Daenerys as Lord Baelish' emissary. Littlefinger is pressing his suit and his gift to the Queen across the water is a set of the usurpers tapestries which depict all of Robert Baratheon's victories over the Targs. Daenerys will be able to see for the first time in her life images of Rhaegar fighting his losing battle on the Trident.

Meanwhile, back in the Vale. Littlefinger will continue his plan for world domination. He'll pit the Royces against each other and not even the discovery of some of Sansa's vividly hued pubic hair will stop him. He will blithely tell them all that yes, his daughter is indeed a natural red head - just like her mother Lyssa Tully whom he Littlefinger knocked up all those years ago - the hidden result of that liaison being Sansa Starks cousin - his own daughter Alayne.

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