Westeros M2:TW mod- Suggestions
Posted 12 May 2007 - 08:14 AM
BTW, AD stands for Anno Domini (seriously, the mod is called Anno Domini ). I am being serious. Do you need another skinner sort of thing. I'd be willing to learn.
Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:07 AM
Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:43 AM
Posted 13 May 2007 - 08:41 AM
I'm gonna have a look at the skinning tutorials, but most of my work (to begin with anyway) will be too low quality. I may improve with time though. BTW, what is going to be included in the first BETA when it comes out?
Posted 13 May 2007 - 12:03 PM
Most of the houses will be usual. Here are some irregular ones
Boltons - -1 Loyalty +1 Dread
Cassels - +2 Loyalty
Umber - +1 Hitpoints, +2 Loyalty
Manderly - +1 Loyalty, +5% to Tax
Mormont - (larger chance of getting Secretly Female?) +1 Loyalty
Reed - Larger chance of getting ambushing traits...
Stark - +2 Authority, +3 Loyalty
I'll do the rest later.
Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:13 AM
PS I realized my argument can be applied to the titles too. I guess we can size down on them if they prove to be too much trouble...
Some continued ideas for traits:
Crippled, one-handed, paralyzed, sickly
Social status: Lord, Ser/Knight, Commoner/Humble Origins..etc
Pastimes: hunting/hawking, jousting, breeding
Body sizes : Mountain that rides, obese, skinny, etc
Unique merchandise, silks and perfumes for princesses
Poisons for assassins: Tears of Lys, the Strangler and "poisoned weapon" for the Viper.
Magic: The Reeds with Greensight
Direwolves/Animals for warg characters
Needle is a must. Let's see who gets to marry Arya :fence:
Valyrian Swords: Dawn, Heart's Bane, Ice, Longclaw, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail.
I think we can give Eddard Ice, then set triggers that once he gets killed then Oathkeeper and Widow will be unlocked, or maybe just script them to go to Joff and Jaime a few turns later.
Posted 14 May 2007 - 11:44 AM
BTW, Aeleron, would Jaime be in prison when we start? If he is not, you would need to figure out how to script it to go to Jaime when he is freed.
I think that we should just have the named houses that are famous
Great Houses (+1 Authority + 1 Loyalty unless specified otherwise)
Greyjoy - +10% to looting
Stark - +3 Loyalty, +2 Chivalry
Tully - Not sure? Siggestions
Arryn - +3 Chivalry
Tyrell - +1 to Cavalry Command,
Martell - +1 to Infantry Command
Lannister - more chance of getting handsome traits, +5% to tax collection
Baratheon - not sure? Suggestions
Lesser Houses (+1 Loyalty unless specified otherwise)
Bolton - +1 Dread, -1 Loyalty
Frey - -1 Loyalty, +10% TaX
Clegane - [Larger chance of being bigger a la Aeleron's above post]
Dayne - +1 Chivalry (chance of getting SOTM weapon)
Hightower - [more chance of getting maester ancillaries]
More suggestions for very well known houses?
Posted 14 May 2007 - 02:25 PM
Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:06 PM
If I am, I think we're going off track.
First, I don't know that I agree with the bonuses assigned. The Starks were neither that chivalrous, nor that loyal. Robb himself was very honorable, but Bolton was significantly less so... and as for loyalty, Bolton and Karstark stand as clear examples to the contrary... there are others, but we can get to those later.
Second, the problem is that the houses are *not* monolithic entities. The Tyrells were known for their 'southron' chivalry... but Randyll Tarly is a Tyrell bannerman, and he is more deserving of dread than chivalry. Tywin Lannister was not chivalrous... though he's not one to inspire dread either (with the whole, once they bend the knee, help them to stand). Joffrey would have lots of dread, but low command. The Royces would be chivalrous... Robert Arryn and Lyn Corbray, not so much. The Cleganes were abnormally large, but none of their captains (Raff the Sweetling, Shitmouth, etc.) were. So if we're trying to assign traits common to an entire faction, it's not really accurate.
Third, some of these create double-counting issues. The Tyrells are big on cavalry because they're wealthy and cavalry is expensive... We don't have any evidence that Tyrell cavalry is any more capable than Baratheon or Stark cavalry. It may be better equipped, but that's reflected in the ability to field and afford heavier cavalry units... there is *nothing* that I am aware of that suggests that the Tyrells have better cavalry commanders. To do so effectively double-counts, and makes them more effective with cavalry than the facts call for. I'd be more inclined to give Robb Stark a bonus to cav command... he's at least won a battle using only cavalry (Whispering Wood).
In the end, I would rather that we simply assigned a few traits to each individual general, rather than try to create 'faction' traits. They're simply too inaccurate and they cause weird problems... like Jaime Lannister with a bonus to tax collection, Mace Tyrell with a bonus to cavalry command, and Gerold 'Attempted Child-Murderer' Dayne, Arya 'guard-killer' Stark, and Robert 'Make him fly' Arryn with bonuses to chivalry.
Other notes... Making Valyrian Swords viable is a stretch... at most, they'd up the attack value of the General by a point or so (if we can do that *without* boosting the stats of the bodyguards, that'd be more accurate). Given that that's the case, Needle is *really* hard to justify. It's just a sword... normal, castle-forged steel. It's named, but it's not particularly different than those used by other units. Of course, that's assuming we can even include Arya as a general...
Now that we've got Eddard Stark as a component in a variable start, it seems that we'd be going with a start right after Robert Baratheon's death. In which case, Jaime Lannister would *not* be a prisoner... he'd have just left King's Landing for Casterly Rock, to join a Lannister army that would later lay siege to Riverrun.
Posted 14 May 2007 - 04:06 PM
To further explain this though, it's not based by faction, but by House. When he says "Stark" he means Eddard, Robb & Brandon. (Rickon having to be excluded as M2 won't allow more than 4 children). If you notice, he's included a number of lesser houses too. I'll give an example:
Say the Stark player marries Sansa off to... for the sake of the example, Lancel Lannister. Sansa bears the Stark bloodline trait, and Lancel bears the Lannister trait. Any children they bear will have the bloodlines of both houses, and will inherit the bonuses and penalties from each. In this, we can include the minor houses. So we'd have traits for all the major ones, plus one for each existing house. So there'd be a Kettleblack bloodline, Bolton, Tarly, etc. But like I said, since the mod will have such a short timeframe, I doubt there will be many new additions as far as children go... We'll have to see.
Posted 14 May 2007 - 05:28 PM
Posted 15 May 2007 - 01:13 AM
The aim of bloodline traits and title ancillaries is only to add roleplay elements to the game. BBB tried to minimize the impact on gameplay by reducing the effect of bloodlines and titles; most families only get loyalty bonus and titles just give more tax. Only some specific renown families or cities have special bonuses: Eastern factions are (slight) better horsemen, titles to large port cities gain trade..etc. It's only a starter basic skill boost, so even the supposed chivalrous Starks and Arryns could train their family to be dreadful murderers.
Suggestion to the blood traits:
Greyjoy - Looting is fine, maybe some dread.
Stark - Loyalty and Chiv works, but +1 for each is enough I think.
Tully - err farm output bonus?
Arryn - again, lower the amount,. To differ from Stark I say +2 Chiv
Tyrell - farm bonus seem fitting for them too. And some chiv wouldn't hurt.
Martell - This is a hard one. Fiery temper doesn't mean they're better fighters.
Lannister - rich and handsome, I concur.
Baratheon - I dunno about Baratheons either. We don't have many of them left anyway, does Joff even count? I'd prefer giving him a Lannister trait myself.
For the lesser houses, I don't know, after looking through the generals list, I'm not sure if we have enough of them to justify making new traits for them. Like Marcus pointed out, bloodlines are mainly for identifying later gnerations, but we won't have many new people in our timespan.
Oh and on Valyrian swords, they only add to the general's own health i think, so it shouldn't be too big of a fuss. Arya's a princess, and Needle's her item anc, maybe -1 charm.
Posted 15 May 2007 - 12:51 PM
Stark - Command, maybe Loyalty
Tully - Chivalry
Arryn - Loyalty (negative)
Tyrell - Chivalry
Martell - Dread
Lannister - Dread, perhaps Command
Baratheon (Storm's End) - Chivalry
Baratheon (Dragonstone) - Command
Baratheon (King's Landing) - Dread
The Greyjoys clearly have a knack for inspiring dread. Balon, Euron, Victarion, Theon... they're all more than willing to kill in order to express their dominance... which is the essence of dread.
The Starks - Yes, Robb and Eddard were well-loved by their allies... but that didn't keep Bolton in line, nor did it stay Karstark's need for revenge. If anything strikes me about the Stark children, generally, is that Eddard trained them well for what he imagined they would be facing. Robb was well-prepared to lead, as was Jon. They were taught to be good leaders... and both were. That's what I see for their bloodline... a talent for command.
Tully - The main thing that we see with the only extant leader of the Tullys, Edmure, is that he's got a soft heart... he truly wants the best for his people, and that's going to carry over to his kids. Chivalry bonus to the Tullys.
Arryn - Lysa and Robert Arryn don't really inspire anything. The best we can do is to look to Jon Arryn, and think Loyalty or Chivalry... but as he's not around to teach little Robert Arryn, I don't know if that's appropriate. Instead, Lysa doesn't inspire dread, but disloyalty... and perhaps that's a balance for the Vale's strong armies and defensive position... loyalty problems.
Tyrell - Willas, Garlan the Gallant, Loras, even Mace... all about Chivalry. This is an obvious fit. They're not great farmers, but they are blessed with great farmland... no need to double the effect.
Martell - Dread. Doran worked hard to appear benign, and Arienne doesn't hold enough power to be noticed yet, but look at the rest of the Martells... Oberyn and the Sand Snakes. These are people who inspire fear. If there's one feature that's common to the Martells, it's that ability. Even Doran can do it, in his own way... his own daughter was terrified of him in the Princess in the Tower chapter.
Lannister - Dread... easily, and Command. Look at Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion. They *all* inspire fear. Add in Kevan Lannister (and subtract Cersei), and they're all capable, well trained leaders... and even Cersei can lead people (though she leads them into disaster). For Tywin and Jaime, Command is obvious, but Tyrion is quite capable as we see at the Blackwater, and among his clansmen. For Dread, think of how Tywin deals with the Reynes and Castameres, Tyrion in the ADwD spoiler chapter, and Jaime with Edmure Tully in AFfC (... With a trebuchet!).
Baratheon (Storm's End) - Renly, if he passes along anything, will be his Chivalric notions. Copper, remember?
Baratheon (Dragonstone) - Stannis, is iron. He's the only one who frightens the Lannisters in King's Landing. He's got few men, but he's a very capable commander. Like Iron.
Baratheon (King's Landing) - If Joffrey procreates, he's passing along the Lannister lines... Dread. Even if Lannister gets some Command, Joffrey's refused to learn that lesson... so just Dread.
Posted 15 May 2007 - 03:06 PM
Ice - +1 Law (symbol of Ned Stark's justice and so forth etc.) +1 Authority.
Dawn - +2 Chivalry, +1 Authority
And, btw, in accordance with the traitlines that Aeleron pointed out, we should have the following traits
Big (Puny, Small, Big, Giant, Mountain that Rides) etc.
Crippled/Ill (Seriously Ill, One handed, Wounded)
Weapon Skill (maybe, what do you guys think?) (Stick them with the pointy end, useless, skilled with weapons, blademaster etc.)
Rank (Knight, Bannerman, General, Warden of the ...)
Warg Animals for the Starks
Unique equipment for various units (Manticore Venom (RV), Poisons (don't think we need lots of different types, just poisons of varying strengths, )
Valyrian Blades + Lightbringer = Dawn
Crowns (Crown of the North etc.)
Posted 19 May 2007 - 12:24 PM
I'm writing up the traits slowly, and I'm finding the descriptions for traits the most time-consuming. Would appreciate it if some of you lurkers out there could show off some literal prowess for the benefit of the mod. Don't be offended if your brilliant idea don't get adopted though... If you really want to read your piece ingame you could very easily put them in via the export_vnv.txt in the text folder anyway (but you need some mod tools first to get the file.
A pileup for the current traits
Greyjoy Stark Tully Arryn Tyrell Martell Lannister B-Renly, B-Stan, B-Joff
(I think it's alright making them separate houses, it's not like they even acknowledge their family status anymore and they all have very distinctive personalities.)
One-Handed, Severely wounded, Crippled (diseases were covered in BBB )
Giant, Mountain-that-Rides, Obese
(any smaller seems redundant...eg. what effects would "trim" grant? or "bony"? maybe another -1 charm for Arya Horseface
Humble Origins, Knight, Kingsguard, Lord
(I dunno about the Warden thing, it could be an office ancillary I guess...
StickThemWithPointyEnd, NoStomachToFight, MethodicalFighter, BladeMaster, LegendarySwordsman (I know, corny...ideas welcome
Hunter, Hawker, Breeder (we could include the censored version too.
Kingslayer, Kinslayer, Warg, Imp, Female (Obviously welcome more suggestions)
I'll try to do some Ancillary next.
Edited by aeoleron9, 19 May 2007 - 01:34 PM.
Posted 19 May 2007 - 04:17 PM
Posted 19 May 2007 - 04:47 PM
Posted 19 May 2007 - 09:05 PM
Diminutive for crannogmen, alright I'll add that.
BTW, anyone up for the description job? Don't need alot, 1-2 liners for each would work. Mainly we want ancillary descriptions, since traits are mostly finished. You're still welcome to write up descriptions for traits you're really passionate about though. You can find the ancillary list a few pages back.
Here's an example:
trait Physical_Flawless which titles a character "the Handsome" says on its description:
"There is no chance this man's portrait will be flattering, no matter how deft the artist."
something like that. Oh and Ancs work just the same.
Posted 23 May 2007 - 02:14 PM