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Best Fighters of Westeros


Aunai

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Who was better in their prime? Barristan Selmy or Arthur Dayne? I'm personally going with selmy, judging by the way he contemptuously handled a tough battle hardened sellsword captain. Edit: at the age where he should have a few grandkids

And why does Dayne have a superior reputation? Looking over their careers, selmy's seems more distinguished (if only because he lived longer and had more experience)

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Bronn over Oberyn? In what universe? Bronn is overrated.

Bronn said he could "possibly" beat Gregor. Oberyn did what Bronn was scared to do. And he succeeded. He beat Gregor. He had him pinned to the ground. The only thing that kept him from killing Gregor then and there was his desire to hear that confession. If he hadn't been trying to get that confession, he'd be alive and Gregor would be dead. He demonstrated his skills over & over in that fight.

If we're thinking of best fighters as in "Who's best at killing people?" both Gregor and Oberyn should be right at the top of the list. Oberyn poisons his weapons. He doesn't give a shit about the rules- he will ultimately kill anyone he encounters in battle.

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I think I remember a reference that Ned was an adequate fighter, nothing special; also he lost in single combat- tourney swords- to Jason Mallister, when he visited Winterfell ( Jon?/Arya? flashback)

I don't remember reading this which leads me to beleive you ment to say Broze Yohn instead of Jason and Sansa instead of Jon.

It's funny how Gregor's strenght is counted as a black mark against him in every fighter thred yet others strenght is not because their not as strong like: Sandor, Jaime and Bronn all the best fighters are pretty srong compared to the adverage man and Gregor is stronger then everyone which gives him an advantage but he's works hard to keep his body the fit killing machine it is. And speed is anther thing that is a god given gift like freekish size yet who here complains that Loras, Bronn and Oberyn arn't good fighters just because they can move faster? It's really quite moronic to discount a fighter because he's strong and uses it to his advantage where small fighters use speed to there advantage.

I don't have a list ready of the greats of all time for the origional poster.

But i always see the top 3 as The Dragonknight, Barristan and Serwyn the Mirrior sheild from a quote Tyrion had about how great of legends they were.

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I don't remember reading this which leads me to beleive you ment to say Broze Yohn instead of Jason and Sansa instead of Jon.

It's funny how Gregor's strenght is counted as a black mark against him in every fighter thred yet others strenght is not because their not as strong like: Sandor, Jaime and Bronn all the best fighters are pretty srong compared to the adverage man and Gregor is stronger then everyone which gives him an advantage but he's works hard to keep his body the fit killing machine it is. And speed is anther thing that is a god given gift like freekish size yet who here complains that Loras, Bronn and Oberyn arn't good fighters just because they can move faster? It's really quite moronic to discount a fighter because he's strong and uses it to his advantage where small fighters use speed to there advantage.

What I'm seeing people doing is, rather than discounting Gregor's strength, arguing that since he relies almost solely upon his strength, he is not a top ten fighter in any arena in which skill falls under discussion. Aye, he's strong, and that's an advantage; he is so monstrously strong that he kills all his opponents, save his brother Sandor, but the fact that he does not kill Sandor, and that he only kills Oberyn because the Red Viper lets his anger get the best of him, shows that he does not have the intelligence or skill to match his strength. Were he Oberyn's size, he would not be considered for the top ten at all.

As for Bronn; like Oberyn, he is cunning, fast, and not exceptionally large. Unlike Oberyn, he's a goddamn mercenary. He may be a good fighter, but he does not have Oberyn's finesse, the passion to back it up, or, most importantly of all, the knowledge of poisons. Bronn doesn't give a fuck about the rules, but neither does Oberyn, and Oberyn knows many cunning and lethal ways to break them.

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And why does Dayne have a superior reputation? Looking over their careers, selmy's seems more distinguished (if only because he lived longer and had more experience)

I'm not sure that Arthur Dayne has a superior reputation in the book world. It's mentioned somewhere in the books that Barristan the Bold is thought of by some commoners in the same mold as Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Aemon the Dragonknight, etc. There was no small concern over where he went after he was dismissed from the KG for that very reason.

We have the priveledge as readers of having the insight of Jaime, himself one of the greatest fighters in the kingdom, to recommend Dayne. Plus we get the coolness factor of "Sword of the Morning" and Dawn, which we understand to be given to the "best" of House Dayne which may not have impressed Westerosi in terms of pure badassery as it does us. Also, Dayne died in battle, while Barristan sat out the tail end of the Rebellion while injured and now lives on as a pale (albeit still dangerous) shadow of his former self. It may seem counterintuitive to consider one that died in battle greater, but "heroic" deaths tend to count in people's opinions on these things.

IMO it is suggested that Dayne was regarded as the best knight in the Seven Kingdoms during a time when Selmy should have been on the tail end of his prime (or shortly after), though the young Selmy had a long list of impressive accomplishments. Perhaps it is that Dayne's greatest accomplishments are more recent than Selmy's that boosts him up to an observer, both readers and characters in the books, with a point of view more in the "present." Taking a step back to view ability from an "at their best" perspective I suppose I would say that Young Selmy and Rebellion-Era Dayne are comparable, two of the best there ever was. I would give a nod to Selmy simply because his accomplishments seem to represent aptitude in a more diverse display of "knightly" conduct and ability than Dayne's renowned honor and sword-fighting skills.

My Very Incomplete List Broken Down By Eras (loosely sorted by rank)

Hedge Knight-Rebellion Era:

Barristan Selmy

Probably: Dunk, among others

Rebellion Era:

Arthur Dayne

Robert Baratheon

Rhaegar Targaryen

Gerold Hightower

Barristan Selmy

Possibly: Gregor Clegane, among others

AGoT-AFfC:

Sandor Clegane

Jaime Lannister

Gregor Clegane

Oberyn Martell

Bronn

Victarion Greyjoy

Garlan Tyrell

Possibly: Loras Tyrell, Greatjon Umber, Brienne (never gets enough props IMO), Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne, Areo Hotah (but pretty much only by his own recommendation), Strong Belwas

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I always wonder why noone ever has Bronze Yohn on their lists.

And wasn't his grandmother a Stark? I can't remember exactly but someone had made family tree's and I thought I had seen that. Or it might be my imagination.

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Ender

That's a fine list you have there (made all the more relevant because it's broken down by era), though I would include Bronze Yohn Royce and Jason Mallister in the Rebellion era. Even now they're both formidable warriors.

Regarding the Selmy vs Dayne issue, I forgot that most of the assessments of Dayne's reputation and prowess come from Jaime who hero worships him and Ned who was very affected by him as well.

I think though, ultimately, when it comes to ranking the prowess of ASOIAF's fighters, it's very difficult to make any definitive judgment. Recall Barristan Selmy's words in SOS:

"He did ser, but...I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm."

Robert may have smashed Rhaegar on the Trident, but that doesn't mean he was the more skilled overall warrior. He was just better on the day. Unfortunately it's not like a tennis or boxing match. Rhaegar would never get the chance to avenge his loss.

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Just want to make two quick points:

Loras is a tourney knight, and very skillful one to. He built his reputation by unhorsing knights in fair one on one fight, but like you said he was outsmarted by "not that smart" Brienne. When Gregor drew sword against him he froze, and would be cut in half if it wasn't for Sandor Clegane to stand between them. Just imagine how long he would last against someone shrewed and experienced like Bronn or Oberyn.

This quote is being unfair to both Loras and Brienne. First off, the not too bright Loras had just used a very shrewd trick in order to defeat Gregor in the first place, one that showed that he had both scouted his enemy effectively and that he realized the power of things besides weapons to change the outcome of a fight. Second, he didn't freeze, he was attending his horse after the joust, and the moment he saw Gregor coming he shouted at his squire to get his sword. (Knights don't wear their blades while jousting, Gregor had to do the same and have his squire fetch his sword before slaying his horse and coming after Loras).

Brienne, while terribly naive, awkward and too straightforward in most situations, is in a fight or battle is quite a good tactician with a tendency to do the unexpected and come up with innovative attacks. Beating Loras is just one example of this, another would be how she managed to sink the boat of Ser Robin Rygar while fleeing Riverrun on the Trident with Jaime. Brienne has a touch of the idiot savant about her. Not good at much except one thing, and that thing is combat.

As for Gregor, while he's far more brawn than brain, he's not as lacking in knowing how to fight as some people think. Tyrion notes this during his duel against Oberyn, when the sun breaks out from the clouds Gregor immediately moves to put the sun at his back, so Oberyn will have to squint and fight the sun just to see what Gregor is doing. Oberyn is able to counter this by using the copper shield he has to reflect the light back at Gregor, but if he'd been using a wooden shield like the vast majority of knights and warriors in Westeros, this would not have been a factor. If Oberyn had missed a strike from Gregor because his vision was being interfered with, that move cold have changed the course of the fight, and Gregor recognizing the opportunity and taking advantage of it after a long hard fight where he's exhauster is a sign of good poise.

So while Gregor doesn't have much going on in between his ears, he does have some good fighting instincts.

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Ender

That's a fine list you have there (made all the more relevant because it's broken down by era), though I would include Bronze Yohn Royce and Jason Mallister in the Rebellion era. Even now they're both formidable warriors.

Yeah, it's very incomplete. I included the usual suspects off the top of my head.

I think though, ultimately, when it comes to ranking the prowess of ASOIAF's fighters, it's very difficult to make any definitive judgment. Recall Barristan Selmy's words in SOS:

"He did ser, but...I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm."

Robert may have smashed Rhaegar on the Trident, but that doesn't mean he was the more skilled overall warrior. He was just better on the day. Unfortunately it's not like a tennis or boxing match. Rhaegar would never get the chance to avenge his loss.

I've made the same argument myself in many of these types of discussions. There are so many variables that come into play that it's not likely one man would always defeat another. Plus some people will match up better against others. For example, Oberyn's style was well suited to the lumbering Gregor, but how would it match up against the quick and crafty Bronn? What about against a swordmaster like Arthur Dayne?

I try to imagine "contestants" in a hypothetical round-robin tournament played over and over and arrange them by what you interpret would be their "record" when all was said and done. Because while, say, Loras Tyrell might sometimes beat Sandor Clegane, over a large number of hypothetical battles I think most would agree that Sandor would win more often than not. Nobody (but Red Sox fans) disputes the Yankees are the best team in the AL East after they finish a 162-game season with the best record...but applying that sort of thinking to a fight to the death is really just a thought experiment. The fact that there are so many different ways to approach the question of "Who is the best fighter" is what makes it a good piece of discussion whenever it comes up.

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Bronn over Oberyn? In what universe? Bronn is overrated.

Bronn said he could "possibly" beat Gregor. Oberyn did what Bronn was scared to do. And he succeeded. He beat Gregor. He had him pinned to the ground. The only thing that kept him from killing Gregor then and there was his desire to hear that confession. If he hadn't been trying to get that confession, he'd be alive and Gregor would be dead. He demonstrated his skills over & over in that fight.

If we're thinking of best fighters as in "Who's best at killing people?" both Gregor and Oberyn should be right at the top of the list. Oberyn poisons his weapons. He doesn't give a shit about the rules- he will ultimately kill anyone he encounters in battle.

What a nonsense.

Oberyn didn't beat Gregor, it happened to him just what Bronn was afraid of him. If Oberyn was bit more scared, bit less insane, he would have killed Gregor, and live to see it.

Btw. Bronn wasn't scared of fight, and if you didn't understand what he said to Tyrion read it again. Unlike Obery he had absolutely no reason to put his life on the line.

As for Bronn; like Oberyn, he is cunning, fast, and not exceptionally large. Unlike Oberyn, he's a goddamn mercenary. He may be a good fighter, but he does not have Oberyn's finesse, the passion to back it up, or, most importantly of all, the knowledge of poisons. Bronn doesn't give a fuck about the rules, but neither does Oberyn, and Oberyn knows many cunning and lethal ways to break them.

I think that large frame is not much of an advantage, as all it does is makes you easier target. However it was described that Bronn had a longer each than many, and that was one of his advantages.

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Probably: Dunk, among others

We have yet to see any indication that Dunk is more than an average knight. So far we've seen that he is strong and fearless, but both combats he's been in have shown how unskilled he is. He does win in fair combat against both Aerion and Ser Lucas, but both times his swordsmanship and lancework is overmatched. Against Aerion he wins, much like Ser Gregor against the Red Viper, by dragging him down when the over-confident prince stands over him. Then he beats the prone princeling him with a shield until he yields. The fight against Ser Lucas does very little to inspire more confidence in Dunk. Ser Lucas rides circles around him, smashing into his shield with a poleaxe. All Dunk can do is wheel around on Thunder, keep his shield up, and wait for a gap to poke him with a sword.

Finally he saw it. Every time Ser Lucas lifted his ax for another blow, a gap appeared beneath his arm. There was mail and leather there, and padding underneath, but no steel plate. Dunk kept his shield up, trying to time his attack. Soon. Soon. The ax crashed down, wrenched free, came up. Now! He slammed his spurs into Thunder, driving him closer, and thrust with his longsword, to drive his point through the opening.

But the gap vanished as quick as it had appeared. His swordpoint scraped a rondel, and Dunk, overextended, almost lost his seat. The ax descended with a crash, slanting off the iron rim of Dunk's shield, crunching against the side of his helm, and striking Thunder a glancing blow along the neck.

See? Dunk is too slow for that.

Then both knights combatants fall from their horse. Dunk is first up. But he lost his sword.

Ser Lucas burst up out of the water right in front of him, sword in hand. He struck Dunk's neck a savage blow, and only the thickness of his gorget kept his head upon his shoulders. He had no blade to answer with, only his shield. He gave ground, and the Longinch came after, screaming and slashing. Dunk's upraised arm took a numbing blow above the elbow. A cut to his hip made him grunt in pain. As he backed away, a rock turned beneath his foot, and he went down to one knee, chest-high in the water. He got his shield up, but this time Ser Lucas struck so hard he split the thick oak right down the middle, and drove the remnants back into Dunk's face. His ears were ringing and his mouth was full of blood, but somewhere far away he heard Egg screaming. "Get him, ser, get him, get him, he's right there! "

Dunk dived forward. Ser Lucas had wrenched his sword free for another cut. Dunk slammed into him waist-high and knocked him off his feet. The stream swallowed both of them again, but this time Dunk was ready. He kept one arm around the Longinch and forced him to the bottom. Bubbles came streaming out from behind Inchfield's battered, twisted visor, but still he fought. He found a rock at the bottom of the stream and began hammering at Dunk's head and hands. Dunk fumbled at his swordbelt. Have I lost the dagger too? he wondered. No, there it was. His hand closed around the hilt and he wrenched it free, and drove it slowly through the churning water, through the iron rings and boiled leather beneath the arm of Lucas the Longinch, turning it as he pushed. Ser Lucas jerked and twisted, and the strength left him.

That's all we have. Ser Baelor asked, worried, "How good a knight are you, truly?" Not very good, so far. At least not from what we can see. And everything else we can infer points in the same direction: He has been trained by an unremarkable Hedge Knight, and his best employment so far is as a sworn sword to Ser Eustace. Him of the chickens. Doesn't sound like a great knight to me, in fact we have no reason to think Dunk could best his colleague Ser Bennis. He is certainly hard pressed against a good knight like Ser Eustace, who probably is the best knight in the household of Lady Webber.

What we do know is that Dunk looks the part. He is large and good-looking, judging from how people react to him. People assume he is a good knight. Lady Webber offers him employment on sight, Ser Lucas is intimidated by him, Ser Eustace is infatuated with his presence, Steffon Fossoway invites him to train with him. However unskilled Dunk may be, people think he is good. Only Baelor, a better judge of swordsmanship than any in his day, asks the pointed question. How good is he, truly?

I'm sure he'll improve, but part of me would like to keep Dunk clumsy. I would think it heart-warming if Dunk receives the position of Lord Commander from Aegon not so much on the strength of his swordplay. But simply because he is a good knight in the other sense of good.

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What we do know is that Dunk looks the part. He is large and good-looking, judging from how people react to him. People assume he is a good knight. Lady Webber offers him employment on sight, Ser Lucas is intimidated by him, Ser Eustace is infatuated with his presence, Steffon Fossoway invites him to train with him. However unskilled Dunk may be, people think he is good. Only Baelor, a better judge of swordsmanship than any in his day, asks the pointed question. How good is he, truly?

I'm sure he'll improve, but part of me would like to keep Dunk clumsy. I would think it heart-warming if Dunk receives the position of Lord Commander from Aegon not so much on the strength of his swordplay. But simply because he is a good knight in the other sense of good.

Yeah, I agree with your analysis. I included him under 'probably' for the reasons quoted above, though I would say the likelihood that Dunk becomes one of the best fighters is open to personal interpretation.

We know he has the physical foundation for it. And we know that he becomes LC, which may or may not mean anything regarding his ability as you point out. I personally would like to think that as LC of the king's personal "bodyguard," as it were, that he is one of the best fighters in the realm, as our limited knowledge of LC's suggests that they tend to be great fighters (Aemon the Dragonknight, Ryam Redwyne, Gerold Hightower, Selmy, Jaime), though to be sure if they weren't great we'd be less likely to hear about them. It's lofty company at any rate. He doesn't demonstrate any great skill yet in THK or TSS, but he still has a number of prime years left to develop it. Of course, that's mostly speculation at this point.

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What a nonsense.

Oberyn didn't beat Gregor, it happened to him just what Bronn was afraid of him. If Oberyn was bit more scared, bit less insane, he would have killed Gregor, and live to see it.

Btw. Bronn wasn't scared of fight, and if you didn't understand what he said to Tyrion read it again. Unlike Obery he had absolutely no reason to put his life on the line.

I think that large frame is not much of an advantage, as all it does is makes you easier target. However it was described that Bronn had a longer each than many, and that was one of his advantages.

Oberyn had Gregor pinned to the ground with his spear. He was gut stabbed. I don't think he was gonna be walking away. That doesn't count as beaten? Or are you only saying this because Oberyn got himself killed?

If he hadn't been trying to get a confession out of Gregor, he'd still be alive because he would have killed Gregor outright. Hell, he could've just walked away & let the poison do its thing. He stepped within Gregor's reach before the poison began to take affect and it cost him his life. Getting Gregor to confess so he could then go after Tywin was has objective. He didn't die because of any sort of martial failure, he died because he was trying to get that confession. He was unable to get it out of Gregor eariler in the fight, so he took the risk of coming within Gregor's reach.

I maintain that Bronn is overrated. I don't know where people get the idea that he has these amazing skills and should be in the top ten.

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Strong Belwas

I like this alot. I imagine Strong Belwas will continue to show why he's such a badass in future novels. He seems to be super strong, but also fast, and very skillful when it comes to fighting. He's definately in my top 20 for sure.

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I don't understand the disqualifications of Gregor and Victarion because they're not "skillful" enough. Skill is just one factor in what makes a good fighter. The main measure of being a good figther is how good you are at killing your opponent. Vic and Gregor both stack up well on this account-- even if they're not terribly skilled, they are good at fighting.

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Bronn is rated as high as he is by many here for good reason.

He can effectively dual wield, and we have seen him do so more than once. VERY few people can do this well (in the real world/history or Westeros).

As it has been stated before in this thread, he has a long reach which is a big advantage (as seen in the Oberyn v. Gregor fight).

He is quick and agile, as Tyrion has noted often.

He has fought with light armor, and didnt get wounded, which gives him greater agility and more endurance.

He is one of the most cunning and clever fighters in the book. He thinks about how to beat Vardis and explains to Tyrion how to beat Gregor, and no he didnt run from Gregor, he just didnt have a motive, whereas Oberyn had a great motive.

While I'm not saying that he is definitely in the top 10 (we have very little information on most fighters and 10 is a small number compared to the population of Westeros, plus they are all fictional and subject to GRRM's whims), he is most certainly not overrated.

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Oberyn had Gregor pinned to the ground with his spear. He was gut stabbed. I don't think he was gonna be walking away. That doesn't count as beaten? Or are you only saying this because Oberyn got himself killed?

If he hadn't been trying to get a confession out of Gregor, he'd still be alive because he would have killed Gregor outright. Hell, he could've just walked away & let the poison do its thing. He stepped within Gregor's reach before the poison began to take affect and it cost him his life. Getting Gregor to confess so he could then go after Tywin was has objective. He didn't die because of any sort of martial failure, he died because he was trying to get that confession. He was unable to get it out of Gregor eariler in the fight, so he took the risk of coming within Gregor's reach.

That is exactly what Bronn noticed: Get careless against Gregor, and you will pay with your life.

Oberyn should know better. Gregor is no regular man, he is beast that is extremely hard to kill, and in the end Oberyn underestimated him.

He wonted confession, and it made him careless, made him sloppy, he made major mistake and in the end he paid for it.

I maintain that Bronn is overrated. I don't know where people get the idea that he has these amazing skills and should be in the top ten.

You must give this guy some credit simply on how long he survived leading mercenary life on his own. He never had head of powerful house, and bunch of knights behind him. It is only his skill with sword, and cunningness that kept him alive.

Notice how he studied others, searching for their weakness (Talad), even when he didn't have particular reason to do so, he rarely sleep and made that "ugly" sword of his into deadly weapon.

However, he isn't known as one of best swordsman in Westeroes, and is highly underrated by most.

Btw. Remember how he stood for Tyrion at his trial, confident that he can take out best Swordsmans of Vale, and surely he was aware of Lyn Corbray's and Bronze Jon's reputation at least.

He can effectively dual wield, and we have seen him do so more than once. VERY few people can do this well (in the real world/history or Westeros).

I think that this situations were used mostly to picture how adaptable he is.

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Bronn is rated as high as he is by many here for good reason.

He can effectively dual wield, and we have seen him do so more than once. VERY few people can do this well (in the real world/history or Westeros).

meaning absolutely nothing against a master of a single sword. two swords aren't better than one

As it has been stated before in this thread, he has a long reach which is a big advantage (as seen in the Oberyn v. Gregor fight).

As would any fighter with long arms and blade.

He is quick and agile, as Tyrion has noted often.

Him and half the other characters in the book

He has fought with light armor, and didnt get wounded, which gives him greater agility and more endurance.

Against a weakling

He is one of the most cunning and clever fighters in the book. He thinks about how to beat Vardis and explains to Tyrion how to beat Gregor, and no he didnt run from Gregor, he just didnt have a motive, whereas Oberyn had a great motive.

Cunning and cleverness is one of his assets, yes

While I'm not saying that he is definitely in the top 10 (we have very little information on most fighters and 10 is a small number compared to the population of Westeros, plus they are all fictional and subject to GRRM's whims), he is most certainly not overrated.

In that case, name me a case where he definitively proved himself in a fight

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