redcandle17 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 Btw. Remember how he stood for Tyrion at his trial, confident that he can take out best Swordsmans of Vale, and surely he was aware of Lyn Corbray's and Bronze Jon's reputation at least. I think that this situations were used mostly to picture how adaptable he is. I remember that scene quite well, Malek. I re-read it only a few days ago. Bronn volunteered at the very end of the chapter, *after* Lysa had named Ser Vardis and insisted he fight with her husband's new sword. I doubt Bronn failed to take the new sword into account when he calculated his odds of victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValarMorghulis Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I think another reason Bronn gets alot of respect is because he simply hasn't died yet like many of the other fighters on the lists. He's obviously doing something right, and Catelyn reflects on his skill a bit in the chapter in which she finally reaches the Vale of Arryn. The fact the he refuses to fight Gregor has nothing to do with his skill. Would you say that Robb was a poor battle commander because he opted to fight Jaime instead of Tywin in AGOT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted April 9, 2007 Share Posted April 9, 2007 I think another reason Bronn gets alot of respect is because he simply hasn't died yet like many of the other fighters on the lists. He's obviously doing something right, and Catelyn reflects on his skill a bit in the chapter in which she finally reaches the Vale of Arryn. The fact the he refuses to fight Gregor has nothing to do with his skill. Would you say that Robb was a poor battle commander because he opted to fight Jaime instead of Tywin in AGOT? That isn't a relevant comparison. Robb was making the best decision in terms of winning the more important battle. Bronn refused a fight because it was more worthwhile to f*** Lollys than risk dying at Gregor's hands. And Bronn hasn't died yet because he doesn't fight people better than himself. Of the other fighters on this list: Oberyn and Gregor died at each other's hands, and they were both top fighters. Sandor sustained the injuries that "killed" him because he was drunk, and even so he killed one of the men who wounded him and would have killed the other if Arya hadn't gotten to him first. Arthur Dayne and the other two Kingsguards were outnumbered more than 2-1 and they still killed 5 of their 7 opponents before they died. Jaime's hand was cut off when he was chained and couldn't defend himself. Barristan is alive and well and kicking the asses of men half his age still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malek Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I remember that scene quite well, Malek. I re-read it only a few days ago. Bronn volunteered at the very end of the chapter, *after* Lysa had named Ser Vardis and insisted he fight with her husband's new sword. I doubt Bronn failed to take the new sword into account when he calculated his odds of victory. You are right there, as I obviously forgot how he volunteered with last line of the chapter However unlike in fight vs Gregor he had something to fight for, and I wouldn't take it for granted that he wouldn't fight Lyn or Jon if Lysa chose one of them instead of Ser Vardis. That isn't a relevant comparison. Robb was making the best decision in terms of winning the more important battle. Bronn refused a fight because it was more worthwhile to f*** Lollys than risk dying at Gregor's hands. And Bronn hasn't died yet because he doesn't fight people better than himself. What Bronn did there was perfectly within his character, and if he opted to defend Tyrion, I would dropped series right there, seriously I would... Sandor's was a big drinker, and that was his downfall. Jaime's is his rashness. Barristan is too old to keep up with best swordsman around. . . . Bronn doesn't have such flows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delete this account pls Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I don't think Vardis Egen was a pushover by any means. I think he was highly respected for his skills. Remember when Tyrion first returns to KL and tries to gain entry into a meeting of the small council? Mandon Moore refuses Tyrion entry but relents at an implied threat from Bronn. The detail that gives Moore pause is the information that Bronn slew Vardis Egen. Since Moore is rated the second most dangerous Kingsguard by Jaime, I think its a subtle way of saying that Vardis Egen was good, and so the man who killed him is very good. He also duelled each member of Tyrion's personal guard in ACoK, a company which numbered near 600 by the end. Another note in his favour - he survives the Battle of the Green Fork without a scartch, in th midst of the heaviest fighting on the field. I don't think we can say for sure that Bronn is up there with the Sandor and pre-mutilation Jaime, since we haven't seen him fight anyone of that level yet, but I don't see why there's any doubt he's pretty close. Not wanting to fight Gregor is just plain common sense, IMO. Literally hundreds have tried and failed. The BWB, almost a small army, have been trying to do it since AGOT and haven't come close so far. I also agree Victarion should be up there. The guy sounds absolutely terrifying in battle, and the way he fights, always charging in to the thickest fighting and emerging victorious, is proof enough of his skill IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValyrianDragonlord Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I'd just like to point out one indisputable fact about Bronn. Bronn is a lowborn lifelong sellsword in his early to mid thirties. Just being alive is proof of his skill. He's had far more battle experience than most of the "westerosi elite" COMBINED. Certainly more than Sandor Clegane Jaime Lannister Gregor Clegane Garlan Tyrell Loras Tyrell COMBINED I highly suspect that only some of the ironmen, Victarion definitely, oberyn martell, because he soldiered with a sellsword company, have a similar amount of experience. Selmy obviously has the most of any living character. Too bad he's past his prime. I am not saying that Bronn has more individual skill than the above fighters (refer to selmy in SOS), just that if I had to put money on any fighter surviving a battle it would be Bronn. I put a premium on battle experience because individual duels are very rare. IMO how one fights in a battle rather than an individual duel is a better gauge of a fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nester66 Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I highly suspect that only some of the ironmen, Victarion definitely, oberyn martell, because he soldiered with a sellsword company, have a similar amount of experience. Gregor did kill oberyn, to play devils advocate, and sandor did best him defending loras. So Sandor tops that list, imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I'd just like to point out one indisputable fact about Bronn. Bronn is a lowborn lifelong sellsword in his early to mid thirties. Just being alive is proof of his skill. He's had far more battle experience than most of the "westerosi elite" COMBINED. Certainly more than Sandor Clegane Jaime Lannister Gregor Clegane Garlan Tyrell Loras Tyrell COMBINED Yeah. Right. Whatever. Prove it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malek Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Yeah. Right. Whatever. Prove it Proven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValyrianDragonlord Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Correct me if I'm wrong but Loras Tyrell-Blackwater + dragonstone Garlan- Blackwater Sandor- Blackwater Gregor-Robert's Rebellion (greyjoy rebellion?) raiding the riverlands Jaime Lannister-Kingswood brotherhood, (greyjoy rebellion?), Whispering woods even if there's more, Bronn being a lifelong sellsword has likely fought in more battles. Remember, the above fighters are all lordlings who have a lot of downtime. Their life is not continually in danger like a sellsword. Again I'm not saying Bronn has superior individual skill than the above. It's possible that any one of them could kill Bronn in a duel. I'm just saying that given Bronn's superior experience, I'd bet on him surviving a battle above all others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Ok, there're the battles in the BOOKS....we're going to assume they've had no experience before those things? Simply 'being a sellsword' won't cut it. Sandor likely had a very violent life before hooking up with the Lannisters and Gregor's not shy about committing crimes even during Robert's reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValyrianDragonlord Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 The point I was trying to make was that Bronn being lowborn sellsword scum has had to constantly rely on his cunning and martial prowess. Even he doesn't fight, he doesn't have employment. The other fighters are all nobles and go through long stretches without doing any fighting. Loras and Garlan in particular are practically green boys. Gregor is the only one who even remotely comes close to Bronn's experience. I just don't quite get why Bronn is disparaged so much. Even if you don't respect him, shouldn't you respect Tyrion's intelligence? Tyrion delegated a lot of duties to Bronn and trusted him as much as you can trust any amoral sellsword willing to betray you for a higher price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stark Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Does Syrio Forel count??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Stark Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Dany's husband (CANNOT BELIEVE I CAN'T REMEMBER HIS NAME!!!!!) Khal Drogo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Ent Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Even if you don't respect [bronn], shouldn't you respect Tyrion's intelligence? Tyrion delegated a lot of duties to Bronn and trusted him as much as you can trust any amoral sellsword willing to betray you for a higher price. Do you think Tyrion would include Bronn on a list of the most dangerous fighers in Westeros? The only story-internal comment about Bronn's relative strength we have (as far as I can remember) is from Catelyn Stark: Without Bronn she would never have reached the Vale, she knew; the sellsword was as fierce a fighter as she had ever seen, and his sword had helped cut them through to safety. Yet for all that, Catelyn misliked the man. Courage he had, and strength, but there was no kindness in him, and little loyalty.Later: She had seen Bronn fight on the high road; it was no accident that he had survived the journey while other men had died. He moved like a panther, and that ugly sword of his seemed a part of his arm. There you have it. I highborn lady is impressed and disquieted by his fighting skill. But otherwise? I don't think any character ever thinks of Bronn as one of the best fighters of the realm. Nor of Oberyn, as far as I know. (It is very easy to correct me in case I'm wrong about this.) Bronn is the hired sword of a landless, crippled second son of a major house who would have difficulty attracting more reputable men. He's that good. No more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoheeks Bili Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 What do we know of Bronn's background? What is his learning experiences? He seems to be a very smart fighter who can assess anothers strength's /weakness's and use them to his benefit( he's alive isn't he? ) He never had the "formal training" that the nobles have had, he has had to learn on the fly , he probably couldn't afford a set of Plate armour anyways, thus his use of light armour, BUt he has used his strength's for his benefit and become a seriously deadly person( as shown by his still living and how others have spoken of his prowess) In a duel in full plate he may not be too good but put him in light armour and give him his prefered mode of combat and he'd probably do pretty well against those who are used to full plate battle and 2 -hander swords. Don't jump on me people as I would have to think that most of us haven't ever swung a sword in earnest :fence: . People with full plate use that as part of their defence and rely on the plate to keep them safe from being cut, people in light armour have a different mode of battle.........feints, quick in and out attacks, etc, NOT a stand there and take and give until someone can't take it anymore or pass out from exhaustion :smash: . How would he fare against the other top flight "players" ? Who knows? Will they meet at any time in these books? Who knows? It will be interesting to read though !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Ent: Oberyn is known throughout Westeros for his fighting ability...in addition to his lusty behavior and poisoner rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheValyrianDragonlord Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 "Scum you may be, but you're undeniably useful, and with a sword in your hand you're almost as good as my brother Jaime." Tyrion Tyrion's been witness to his brother's skills for many years. So that's another account of Bronn's prowess. I guess some of you might dismiss that as flattery, but Tyrion knew better than anyone that it's gold and not flattery that would win Bronn over. Bronn is an extremely dangerous fighter. Is he better than some of the top fighters listed? Like I said before I prefer to defer to Barristan Selmy's answer in SOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearlessLeader Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Does Syrio Forel count??? I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned SF either. If he's a First Sword of Braavos, he must be pretty damn good, at least in terms of skill. Of course, he may be weakened by age, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Valyrian: At one point, Tyrion appeals to Bronn's ego. Why would he not do the same to get Bronn on his side when he really needs him? Bronn amitted he liked Tyrion, and some flattery'd keep him loyal if some better offers arrived, in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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