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Hypothetically, what are the chances that - if Tysha did concieve - that the child would be Tyrion's? She'd been raped by an ENTIRE BARRACKS of guardsmen...unless she was pregnant beforehand, how could she possibly know who the father was?

I a Legal sence the Child would be the true born Child of Tyrion Lannister ie if Lanna was Tyrion legally she would be allowed the Lannister surname just as Tyrion is because Tywin can;t show that Tyrion is not his. Note I am basic the on my understanding of midevil law thing could be different in martians world how at that point in Our world all child born during a marriage were regrad as the husband this is why a woman cheat was FAR wrost the a man cheat (see Joff et al.)

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Hypothetically, what are the chances that - if Tysha did concieve - that the child would be Tyrion's? She'd been raped by an ENTIRE BARRACKS of guardsmen...unless she was pregnant beforehand, how could she possibly know who the father was?

She may have known she was pregnant before the rapes occurred. Also, given GRRM's tendency to have familial traits, if the child looks like a Lannister, that makes it easier to assume it's Tyrion's. (Lanna is blonde...)

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Is it certain that Tywin ordered Jaime to tell that lie? Or did Jaime make it up on his own?

The distinction could be important, because why Tywin broke up Tyrions marriage is still a mystery.

Its not because of an intense hatred of whores, because Tywin never did this to any other whores Tyrion has been with. And Tysha was not a whore in the first place, she was a crofters daughter. The idea that she was after his inheritance wont wash either, since Tywin was never going to let Tyrion inherit.

What?! Tysha was a crofter's daughter, Tyrion was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. That's all the reason Tywin needed. The marriage was unnacceptable in Westerosi society - that's why Tyrion kept it a secret. That's why Jaime thought lying to Tyrion was the best thing to do. That's why Bronn expresed his incredulity when Tyrion told him about it.

As for Tywin's treatment of Tyrion's other whores ... for one thing, Tysha wasn't a whore. For another, Tyrion didn't marry any of those other whores. And for another, he still had them whipped and threatened to have them hanged.

Best I can do at this point, is conjecture that Tywin didn't want Tyrion to have children in wedlock. This makes sense because he has doubts that Tyrion is his own. If Tyrion were to have a child that looked say very Targaryen, everyone would know.

The reason Tywin actually didn't care if Tyrion had a child with real whore, is because that child's parentage could be denied, since a whore obviously has other customers.

I ... I got nuthin'. Crackpottery, nothing to see here.

Hypothetically, what are the chances that - if Tysha did concieve - that the child would be Tyrion's? She'd been raped by an ENTIRE BARRACKS of guardsmen...unless she was pregnant beforehand, how could she possibly know who the father was?

If she was pregnant with this completely hypothetical child beforehand but didn't know (which she may not have done - she and Tyrion were only married for a fortnight, though it's unknown how long they knew each other before), she wouldn't have had any way of knowing who the father was ... until the child presumably came out with golden hair and green eyes thanks to the Lannister gene fu.

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I have tried to follow the argument from age and failed. Could any of you experts lay it out for me? I have no idea how old Tyrion or Jaime (or Tysha) were at the time of Tyrion's first marriage... there must be a book reference I am missing.

My best estimate for FfC's Braavos chapters is first half to middle of 300. (Using Joffrey's death = 1 January 300 as a fix point.) The last Arya chapter Cat of the Canals may as late as late 300.

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I have tried to follow the argument from age and failed. Could any of you experts lay it out for me? I have no idea how old Tyrion or Jaime (or Tysha) were at the time of Tyrion's first marriage... there must be a book reference I am missing.

My best estimate for FfC's Braavos chapters is first half to middle of 300. (Using Joffrey's death = 1 January 300 as a fix point.) The last Arya chapter Cat of the Canals may as late as late 300.

I hate maths but this is how I work it out:

We know Tyrion was 13 when he met Tysha (he tells Bronn that) and we know Tyrion is 8 or 9 years younger than Jaime and Cersei (Oberyn says that), so Jaime was 21 or 22 when Tyrion met Tysha. We know Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys and that AGoT starts roughly 14 years after that, making Jaime 31. Tyrion would therefore be 22 or 23 - however, we know he's had his 23rd birthday 'cause he says his horse was his 23rd name day present from Jaime.

So Tyrion was 13 when he met Tysha and Jaime was 21 and AGoT starts 10 years later when Tyrion is 23 and Jaime is 31.

All this is give or take depending on when during the year all these events took place but I think the maximum time that could have passed since Tyrion met Tysha is just shy of 11 years if, say, he'd only just turned 13 when he met her and was nearly 24 at the start of AGoT. But that's from when they met so that would make any child of theirs 10 years old at most.

If we look at the ages of the kids throughout the series we see Jon goes from 14 to 16, Sansa goes from 11 to 13 and Joffrey goes from 12 to 13 at the time of his death, so we can guess that slightly less than two years pass over the course of the first three books. So if ASoS ends early 300, AGoT started early-mid 298. Can anyone remember if there's any reference to what time of year it was? How long a time period does AFfC take place over? 6 months? Even stretching it to the last Arya chapter taking place in late 300 that's still less than 3 years, making this hypothetical child 13 at the most.

I think.

Okay, maths and my brain don't mix so I'm going to stop now before I confuse myself!

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[...] so we can guess that slightly less than two years pass over the course of the first three books.

Another good data point for these debates are the two pregnancies. Dany gets married (difficult to say when... maybe about the time Ned arrives at King's Landing, which may already be half a year after the wolf pup scene.) Dany then carries a child to term and loses it. That puts the Dany timeline in GoT to 10 months or so. Her re-birth is heralded by a comet that can be seen in Westeros as well. Some time later, Myrcella leaves for Dorne and Lollys gets raped by half of Kings Landing. That child (Tyrion Stokeworth) is born in Feast. So two years from GoT to FfC is fine. Two-and-a-half would still be plausible.

The Braavos chapters happen a good deal after the KL timeline in FfC, as much as half a year (if you want). So if you want to stretch it: three years between Catelyn at Winterfell and Arya in Braavos. As you said.

How long a time period does AFfC take place over? 6 months?

Impossible to say. From the first Damphair chapter (which happens before the Red Wedding!) to the last Arya/Cat chapter there could be more than a year. We simply don't know. But the main part of FfC (Cersei, Brienne, Jaime) takes half a year or so.

Thanks for your answers; I'll try to do the maths myself now.

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Another good data point for these debates are the two pregnancies. Dany gets married (difficult to say when... maybe about the time Ned arrives at King's Landing, which may already be half a year after the wolf pup scene.) Dany then carries a child to term and loses it. That puts the Dany timeline in GoT to 10 months or so. Her re-birth is heralded by a comet that can be seen in Westeros as well. Some time later, Myrcella leaves for Dorne and Lollys gets raped by half of Kings Landing. That child (Tyrion Stokeworth) is born in Feast. So two years from GoT to FfC is fine. Two-and-a-half would still be plausible.

Oooh, good point about the pregnancies, I hadn't thought of that. So that's 18 months which definitely needs to be accounted for and I don't think as much as six months passes between the end of AGoT and the KL riot, so that's definitely less than two years from start of AGoT to start of AFfC.

Is it possible to work out when the Arya chapters take place within the KL timeline based on the Sam chapters?

Hmmm...

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No she doesn't. Tyrion specifically tells Bronn he was too afraid to take Tysha back to Casterly Rock. Tywin found out about the marriage via the Septon. Tyrion had nothing to do with it.

Well I might have misremembered the details. It was the Septon who spilled the beans? How did he get in contact with the high and mighty lord of Lannister?

Again, you know this how? This is pure conjecture and I think it's unlikely that it happened like this.

As far as Tysha knew, one day she was living in her cottage ... the next she's being taken to the guards' barracks.

Whatever happened between the cottage and the barracks, and whatever she was told, when she gets there Tywin is handing out the money to his guards, Tywin is there making sure Tyrion sees the whole thing, and Tywin is telling Tyrion what to do. It wouldn't take a genius to work out that Tyrion had been lied to or that Tywin was the one who had done the lying. And Tysha would have known that if Tywin found out about the marriage it would have meant bad news because Tyrion specifically didn't take her back to Casterly Rock because he was afraid of his father's reaction.

All I know is what I read in the books without adding too much fluff between the lines. Now suppose she's taken by the guards (How is this relevant anyway?) and sees Tywin instructing all his guards and Tyrion how to rape her. How does that matter? So Tywin orchestrated the rape. The important thing is that her husband Tyrion did not defend her or protest against her treatment and even took part in her rape. Hwo do I know this? I read Tyrion's tale and there's no sign that he protested. He also says he joined the gang-rape. I'd believe he cried but there's no sign of anything else.

Rethinking how Tywin arranged this I was struck by a revelation. Tywin must have talked to Tysha beforehand to ensure she played her part as the whore. He must have threatened her. She doesn't scream or struggle too much (again according to Tyrion's story that doesn't include such) If she did Tyrion might have doubted Jaime's story. By the way I think this was the clause Tywin used to annul the marriage. A marriage to a whore is not real. So if Tysha is a whore...

From Tysha's point of view, Tyrion believed his father's word before he believed in his love for her. That would hurt a lot but it's a far cry from her believing he sold her to his father's guards!

If you really think Tyrion sat there and taunted her or called her a whore, or even that he made no protest upon seeing her there, then clearly we have completely different views of the character. Until or unless GRRM gives us a more detailed flashback, we have no way of knowing for sure the exact details of that day. However, given Tyrion's continuing trauma about the incident, I'd say it's far more likely that the pain he felt throughout the whole thing was very obvious while it was happening. He gets tears in his eyes as he tells Bronn the story ten years later; I don't think it's a huge leap to guess he may have even cried at the time.

I like Tyrion but according to what he himself says he made no protest. It's more reasonable to assume he's telling the truth than add hypothetical protests we have no sign of.

He was hurt, true. But he was also very angry at Tysha. No one loves him in the whole world except for his big brother Jaime. Then one day he meets a girl that tell him she loves him. To learn that she was only paid to say that would hurt him bone deep. She would be like servants in the Rock. Disgusted by his existence behind polite masks. He wanted to hurt as much as she hurt him. He probably wouldn't have done anything on his own (beyond banishing her I suppose) but when his father pushes him to do it he does it. He rape her to punish her and he stands silent while that garrison does the same.

Tyrion doesn't just believes his father's word, he treats her as one. If he kicked her out of his life shouting she was a whore it would be like you said, believing his father's word over her love. What happens to her is far worse.

Tywin is a powerful lord but Tyrion is still a lord's son and her husband. Wouldn't she think he should (and could) protect her from his father's depredations? He doesn't beg his father to spare her, he sits with his father watching her being raped by his men and to banish any doubts gets down and dirty himself.

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I don't think as much as six months passes between the end of AGoT and the KL riot

I have two-and-a-half-months for that.

so that's definitely less than two years from start of AGoT to start of AFfC.

Careful. It's easier to argue about events than chapters. The start of GoT is when the wolf pups are found. Nobody knows how long we have to wait for King Robert's arrival at Winterfell, which is when the action really starts.

And the start of FfC is the middle of SoS, somewhere between the Battle of Blackwater and the Red Wedding.

Is it possible to work out when the Arya chapters take place within the KL timeline based on the Sam chapters?

I've tried that. See the "tenative timeline" thread of the FfC reread subforum. It's extremely difficult, contradictory, and ultimately unsatisfying.

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Well I might have misremembered the details. It was the Septon who spilled the beans? How did he get in contact with the high and mighty lord of Lannister?

That's what it says in the book. Page 458 in my copy:

"... for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father."

Yes, it was the Septon who spilled the beans.

All I know is what I read in the books without adding too much fluff between the lines. Now suppose she's taken by the guards (How is this relevant anyway?) and sees Tywin instructing all his guards and Tyrion how to rape her. How does that matter? So Tywin orchestrated the rape. The important thing is that her husband Tyrion did not defend her or protest against her treatment and even took part in her rape. Hwo do I know this? I read Tyrion's tale and there's no sign that he protested. He also says he joined the gang-rape. I'd believe he cried but there's no sign of anything else.

Look at it from Tysha's point of view. She and Tyrion are madly in love, spending their days languishing in bed (see the flashback at the end of ACoK), living an idyllic life. Then via an unknown course of events she's taken to the barracks and Tywin is there handing out coins and orders for her to be raped. I don't think it's a stretch to assume Tyrion was visibly upset by this course of events. Again I point to the tears in his eyes when he tells Bronn the story ten years later. Stoicism is never Tyrion's strong point, he gets emotional very easily, and I highly doubt he was anything but obviously upset while all this was happening. That's not 'adding fluff' that's paying attention to the character. Tysha would have known Tyrion had been lied to.

Rethinking how Tywin arranged this I was struck by a revelation. Tywin must have talked to Tysha beforehand to ensure she played her part as the whore. He must have threatened her. She doesn't scream or struggle too much (again according to Tyrion's story that doesn't include such) If she did Tyrion might have doubted Jaime's story.

I'd readily believe this but I'm not sure how this supports your argument. On the contrary - that's confirmation for Tysha right there that Tyrion had been lied to and Tywin was behind the rapes! Even further, if she had to be threatened to protect the lie, that means Tywin was worried about Tyrion believing it without Tysha's co-operation.

He was hurt, true. But he was also very angry at Tysha. No one loves him in the whole world except for his big brother Jaime. Then one day he meets a girl that tell him she loves him. To learn that she was only paid to say that would hurt him bone deep. She would be like servants in the Rock. Disgusted by his existence behind polite masks. He wanted to hurt as much as she hurt him. He probably wouldn't have done anything on his own (beyond banishing her I suppose) but when his father pushes him to do it he does it. He rape her to punish her and he stands silent while that garrison does the same.

So let me get this straight ... you think Tyrion thought this gang rape was absolutely fine and what she deserved and that he was quite happy to join in?

What, precisely, of anything Tyrion has ever said or thought about Tysha makes you think this?

Tyrion hates Tywin for what he did to Tysha. He ultimately kills him because of it! He is haunted by Tysha, he thinks about her at every available opportunity. When he learns of the whore who had Robert's child and who was killed, he thinks, "in his mind she was Shae and Tysha both." As he lies on the verge of death at the end of ACoK he dreams of her.

If you really think he went along willingly with the rape then we've reached a standstill and we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Tywin is a powerful lord but Tyrion is still a lord's son and her husband. Wouldn't she think he should (and could) protect her from his father's depredations? He doesn't beg his father to spare her, he sits with his father watching her being raped by his men and to banish any doubts gets down and dirty himself.

He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch ... Lord Tywin made me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin because I was a Lannister and worth more."

- AGoT, p. 458.

That's hardly sitting down with his father and then getting 'down and dirty'. Tyrion didn't do any of this willingly and Tysha would have known that. That's not to say she wouldn't have been devastated by his actions, and rightly so, but that's his weakness and his being easily manipulated, NOT his endorsing of her gang rape.

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Careful. It's easier to argue about events than chapters. The start of GoT is when the wolf pups are found. Nobody knows how long we have to wait for King Robert's arrival at Winterfell, which is when the action really starts.

You're right about events rather than chapters but I just want to point out that the letter telling of Jon Arryn's death arrives the same day as Gared's execution - we know that because Ned tells Cat he was proud of Bran just before she tells him about the letter. And the royal party is already on its way by then so there can't be that much time passing before their arrival.

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You're right about events rather than chapters but I just want to point out that the letter telling of Jon Arryn's death arrives the same day as Gared's execution [...]

My bad. Good point.

How about the following attempt to squeeze everything in:

281. The year of the false spring. Jaime gets his white cloak at 17. He turns 18 this year.

282-283 War of the Usurper

284. The war is over. Jaime is 21. Tyrion is 13. Lanna conceived

285. Lanna born.

300. Lanna turns turns 15 this year.

Anything that is consistent with what we know? (Honest question, I'm no good at pre-book dates or people's ages.)

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Jaime was accepted into the KG when he was 15 and he killed Aerys when he was 17, that's known for sure.

So if he's 31 at the start of AGoT and that's early-mid 298, that means he would have turned 17 in 284 or 283. If he was 21 when Tysha met Tyrion, that would make the year 288 or 287, so let's say the hypothetical child would have been born in 288. That would make her 12 in 300.

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Jaime was accepted into the KG when he was 15 and he killed Aerys when he was 17, that's known for sure.

That's what I mixed up. Yes. Kingsguard at 15. Counting from 281 for the year of the false spring that would put Lanna's conception into 286, birth into 287.

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What?! Tysha was a crofter's daughter, Tyrion was a Lannister of Casterly Rock. That's all the reason Tywin needed. The marriage was unnacceptable in Westerosi society
This is where the load starts. A highborne will usually make a good political match, but he can marry anyone he damn well pleases. And nobody is going to gang rape his wife if he marries a commoner. How about Jeyne Westerlings grandmother? Nobody gang raped her.
- that's why Tyrion kept it a secret. That's why Jaime thought lying to Tyrion was the best thing to do. That's why Bronn expresed his incredulity when Tyrion told him about it.
This is all based on the assumption that marrying a commoner is grounds for gang rape, and therefore unsupported.

As for Tywin's treatment of Tyrion's other whores ... for one thing, Tysha wasn't a whore.
My point exactly.
For another, Tyrion didn't marry any of those other whores.
Arggh. Didn't we just agree she wasn't a whore?
And for another, he still had them whipped and threatened to have them hanged.
Tywin treated exactly one whore this way, to punish Tyrion for threatening his kin. Tywin didn't exactly punish Shae did he? (Unless you count rough sex :)) Tyrion has been having whores ever since Tysha, 10-12 years. He even said something about how if he died the whores would go begging from KL to Casterly Rock.

I ... I got nuthin'. Crackpottery, nothing to see here.
You sound exactly like Officer Barbrady, and are probably exactly as correct.

If she was pregnant with this completely hypothetical child beforehand but didn't know (which she may not have done - she and Tyrion were only married for a fortnight, though it's unknown how long they knew each other before), she wouldn't have had any way of knowing who the father was ... until the child presumably came out with golden hair and green eyes thanks to the Lannister gene fu.
And I am saying this was exactly the point of the gang rape. To disguise the parentage of any child Tysha might have been carrying.

Jaime was accepted into the KG when he was 15 and he killed Aerys when he was 17, that's known for sure.

So if he's 31 at the start of AGoT and that's early-mid 298, that means he would have turned 17 in 284 or 283. If he was 21 when Tysha met Tyrion, that would make the year 288 or 287, so let's say the hypothetical child would have been born in 288. That would make her 12 in 300.

You know all this precise timeline calculation may be moot. Its a story not world history. Picture GRRM saying in his best Dr. McCoy imitation, "Dammit Jim, I'm a writer, not a mathematician!"

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This is where the load starts. A highborne will usually make a good political match, but he can marry anyone he damn well pleases. And nobody is going to gang rape his wife if he marries a commoner. How about Jeyne Westerlings grandmother? Nobody gang raped her.

Poor example - Jeyne Westerling's grandfather (the one who married Maggy) was a merchant, not a lord. And the Westerlings themselves, though an old family, are poor and pretty low down the aristocratic ladder - it's part of why Robb marrying Jeyne was such a scandal - he betrayed his word to a powerful lord in favour of a a girl so far beneath him.

But anyway, the key factor here is Tywin Lannister - he's an evil bastard, he has huge amounts of family pride, he is particularly wary of women who he thinks might be after the Lannister fortune after dealing with his father's mistress, and he hates his deformed son and probably can't imagine anyone ever actually loving him.

This is all based on the assumption that marrying a commoner is grounds for gang rape, and therefore unsupported.

Whoa, hang on. That's a misrepresentation of what I and others have said. Marrying a commoner is not 'grounds for gang rape' (I'm not sure there are grounds for such a thing, unless you're Terry Goodkind and you want to demonstrate democracy). This is not a common occurance. In Tywin's eyes it is, however, a effective punishment for the lowborn girl who married the son he hates.

Arggh. Didn't we just agree she wasn't a whore?

No, but the others were.

And I am saying this was exactly the point of the gang rape. To disguise the parentage of any child Tysha might have been carrying.

You know what, I'd actually be able to believe that Tywin would have had her raped to ensure plausible deniability if she did have Tyrion's child, but he'd have to know about this hypothetical pregnancy first and I'm not sure how he'd manage that when Tyrion didn't know about it. If you're suggesting he did it just in case she was pregnant then it's just an unnecessary complication of the situation.

Where you lose me is with the whole 'Tyrion is a Targ' thing, and Tywin doing it in case a child of Tyrion's looked like a Targaryen and Joanna's secret was out the bag. It's crackpottery at it's best, it's utterly unsupported by canon and is in fact disputed by several things. I mean the theory is based on, what? Tywin lamenting he's never been able to prove Tyrion isn't his son and Tyrion's love of dragons? Heaven forbid Tywin might hate having to admit he fathered a dwarf or that a person doesn't actually have to have Targaryen blood to think dragons are cool!

No, I'm not going to get into this. I'm not going to be part of this thread going down that tangent.

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A highborne will usually make a good political match, but he can marry anyone he damn well pleases.

Well, he can technically do whatever he wants, but he cannot blatantly defy Tywin. His highborn-ness won't save him since he derives it from Tywin himself.

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And you know this how? She's a crofter's daughter - maybe she could work on a croft or a farm. Maybe she could get work as a scullery maid or a seamstress. She could do any number of things before becoming a prostitute, which would probably be the absolute last thing someone in her position would want to do.

I agree. She may have had all kinds of skills we don't know about, and even if not, there's probably always an inn or a noble lady that needs a serving-girl... Furthermore, she even had the means to be a bit selective, unless she had gotten rid of Tywin's blood-money (which seems a very reasonable sentiment).

BTW, your avatar makes me want to get up and dance... which is odd, cause I suck bigtime at dancing. Or maybe it's the fiery water I've been drinking.... :drunk:

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