185 replies to this topic

[HarryStark]

Reestlord, on May 26 2007, 02.34, said:

I believe that Eddard not only lives, but will be the returning POV for Dance. I personally don't trust GRRM to ever act predictably. He admitted that one of the POVs for Dance would be one that was "retired." The only candidates for this are Theon, Catelyn, and Eddard. GRRM said that Cat would never have a POV again, and Eddard is dead (or is he?), so it would appear that Theon was the only possible choice. So why didn't he just say Theon? Perhaps because it is not going to be Theon. Hmm...

<...>

Didn't GRRM once say that "sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar?"

I for one am pretty sure the 'retired' PoV is going to be Theon - we'll need to have him to find out what happens in the North and how people there react to Stannis, IMO. I'd understand that GRRM didn't want us guessing, but seriously, if Ned came back it'd def. weaken the entire series! Don't get me wrong, I think this is a great theory and I hated it when he died, but I think that's what made the first book so brilliant. He can't spoil the effect, albeit four books later... surely?

The other parts of your argument are that Cat and Sansa didn't recognise the remains. Weighed against that, Bran AND Rickon's dreams (on the day Eddard died, we must assume) as well as Sansa or Cercei or any of the others not recognising an 'impostor Ned' - not to mention Varys' apparent lack of motive for saving Ned in the first place, - I'd definitely say that he's dead. Sorry...

Oh and btw, Benjen was never a PoV character.

[Ser Greguh]

Not to add onto the dogpile too hard, since the OP seems nice enough, but this "theory" (and it's not new) is simply no good.  Ned's dead, and any attempt to argue otherwise simply staggers the imagination.  Typical conclusion-first thinking, where any hint that can put any kind of ambiguity to anything concerning Ned's death (whether it be that a head dippen in tar was "not recognizable" - as if it were supposed to be - or the fact that someone who had been in prison for a not-insubstantial period of time was "emaciated" - as if he were supposed not to be) is submitted as evidence, while the mountains of evidence to the contrary are dismissed with whatever counters can be given, usually in the form of, "well, it COULD be this, this, or this, we just aren't sure".  This is typical of most purveyors of structurally unsound ceramics.

No amount of wishful thinking will bring Ned back.  Sorry.

[Crazydog7]

God help me, I thought I would never be a rank snob but trust a commoner to come up with this one.  

Ned is dead, there is no lack of evidence about it.  He got his head chopped off and Joff put it on a spike

GRRM himself said ned was dead or in other words quote "Ned is Dead"  

He was killed as part of an elaborate plot by Littlefinger to kick up a war between the major houses and thats just part of it but I don't have the time to post it all/

Edited by Crazydog7, 27 May 2007 - 05:21 PM.

[Tyrion4prez]

I don't believe he'd be brought back in the least. Also, didn't the two guys (assuming one was Illyrio and the other Varys) talk about killing another hand in that tunnel? If so that shot the whole "Varys helped keep him alive" idea out of the water. Hell, Varys might have even gave Joff the idea of beheading Ned. . .

[The Pita]

"They say even the Spider was surprised!"
Varys did not know. If there were any plans, Janos Slynt is the only one who can tell us about them. One doesn't have a tongue because of a mad king, and the other doesn't because he was a mad king.

[Forderz]

The only way I want Ned to come back is a animated skeleton after the Others steal into the Winterfell Crypts.  Then we can watch Jon battle the remains of his father 8D

(well, his adoptive one.)

Edited by Forderz, 29 May 2007 - 09:31 AM.

[Blauerdrakken]

Forderz, on May 29 2007, 07.30, said:

The only way I want Ned to come back is a animated skeleton after the Others steal into the Winterfell Crypts.  Then we can watch Jon battle the remains of his father 8D

(well, his adoptive one.)

Brings new meaning to the exclimation "Eddard's Bones!"

[Nightflyer]

It was a valiant, but doomed effort.  Where would you like your official NF award delivered?

Neddy's dead, thats what I said...  (To the tune of Freddy's Dead)

Picture Theon's POV coming out of retirement. "Ow ow ow, my finger really hurts! Oh my god, that sicko in the pink cloak is coming back again..."

[Lann]

well i'm trying to get higher in my ranking so i'll add my two cents...ned's dead.

in so spake martin, GRRM said that he thought the absolute worst aspect of LOTR is Gandalf coming back to life.  that it almost ruins the story for him.  he said this in response to a 'is ned coming back?' question.  that seals it.

[dornish prince]

Reestlord, on May 25 2007, 22.34, said:

I believe that Eddard not only lives, but will be the returning POV for Dance. I personally don't trust GRRM to ever act predictably. He admitted that one of the POVs for Dance would be one that was "retired." The only candidates for this are Theon, Catelyn, and Eddard. GRRM said that Cat would never have a POV again, and Eddard is dead (or is he?), so it would appear that Theon was the only possible choice. So why didn't he just say Theon? Perhaps because it is not going to be Theon. Hmm...

At first, I thought there was no possible way that Eddard could return. He was publically beheaded in front of a crowd of thousands of spectators and three POVs (Arya, Sansa, and Cersei.) But when I thought about it, the surprise factor of bringing Eddard back from such an undeniable death would be enough to justify his 'resurrection.' But how could he have survived? I ruled out a Thoros-like resurrection (I don't care how powerful the magic is; you can't reattach a head.) After re-reading the chapter, I began to get some idea. The man who confessed treason before the masses was not Eddard.

The chapter describing Eddard's death is not told from his perspective. The last we see of him is in the dungeon, talking to Varys. I had always thought it odd that Varys had not suspected that Joffrey would kill Eddard if Eddard confessed. I think that Varys knew what would happen, and thus switched Eddard with another man. If Eddard was presumed dead, then no one would search for him. If it was revealed that he escaped his cell, he would be searched for. Therefore the pseudo-death was clearly advantageous if Varys wanted to get Eddard away. But this hinges on Varys wanting Eddard safe. Why would he want that? One possible reason is that Varys respects Eddard as the honest, dutiful man he is ("You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life."). A more likely explanation is that Varys wants to give Eddard to Daenerys to forever ingratiate him to her. If Daenerys holds Eddard, then she holds the North. We know that Varys is in touch with Illyrio, so this is not impossible.

But no doubt you are asking how Eddard could be replaced with another man when his daughters and much of the court would be in attendance. Theoretically, they should recognize him. If you examine the last Arya chapter closely, though, you see that "Eddard" was on a podium far above the level of the crowd as he confessed his crimes. As long as Varys paid for someone with a similar profile (medium build, brown hair, etc.) to replace him, no one would be able to notice the difference. His emaciated and pained state would increase the difficulty to visually identify him.Only three people were within close range of him during the confession: two gold cloaks, who supported him, and Ilyn Payne, who chopped off his head. The gold cloaks likely knew him only be hearsay (a man of medium build, brown hair, etc.), and thus would not know if it was the real Eddard. Ser Ilyn would immediately know it was not him, but I dout he would tell anyone. ;) Finally, Eddard's voice is described as "so thin and weak [Arya] could scarcely make him out." It would be impossible to identify him by voice. Thus, it is quite possible that Eddard Stark is alive.

Two final things I would like to note that further support my thesis. When Joffrey takes Sansa up to look at her father's head she thinks "It did not look like Lord Eddard..." Now, admittably, the face has been dipped in tar and rotted away. She also cannot recognize any features on any of the other heads. But still, I believe that GRRM was saying something in this quote besides the fact that the face was rotted. I believe this was a little hint that this head was not Eddard's. Also, in Clash, when Catelyn is shown "Eddard's" bones, she thinks, "Bones, this is not Ned, this is not the man I loved, the father of my children." Again, this can be explained by the simple fact that Eddard's remains look nothing like what he did in life. However, once again I believe that more is said by this than just the dissimilarity of corpse and man. If this was taken singly, it could simply be a coincidence, but the duality of it seems to indicate that the remains are not Eddard's.

Well, I have said all I had to say. I hope you don't think this idea is too crackpot; I certainly don't. I would like to humbly apologize if this has been discussed. I could not find it anywhere.

:lmao:

nice one.

[Ned Stark Fan]

very interesting theory. sometimes i thought that maybe he wasnt dead either...when i read the chapter that he was be headed in, i went through the rest of the book and the next one looking for anything that might mean he is back. but no. I would love for him to come back though, but highly doubt that will happen.

[The Pita]

I'm hoping for a Wight POV.
And since we're not getting anyone new, I would not be so wierded out to find that the Starks who lost their swords (IE: Taken by Hodor and the rest) rise as wights.

[TheMalcolm]

Reestlord, on May 26 2007, 09.34, said:

The man who confessed treason before the masses was not Eddard.

Yeah. Actually, it was Benjen Stark, that's why he is nowhere to be found.
And, since in this scenario Eddard should arrive to Dany at almost same time as ser Barristan... he is now Belwas!

[The Pita]

And he's disguising himself as Illyrio too!
Here's a crackpot theory, if you include sophisticated make-up: Illyrio is Belwas.

[shadowbinding shoe]

I'm really sick and tired of these "He's alive!!! Muwhahahahaha." theories. Give over already. I remember Ned theories like these in the past and this one is even weaker.

If you're looking for a Ned, you can find him in the riverlands hanging with a bunch of outlaws.

[Dycedarg]

shadowbinding shoe, on May 30 2007, 04.54, said:

If you're looking for a Ned, you can find him in the riverlands hanging with a bunch of outlaws.

The double entendre possibilities here are great. What happened to him anyways?

[HarryStark]

Dycedarg, on May 30 2007, 14.47, said:

The double entendre possibilities here are great. What happened to him anyways?

Haha, yeah, talk about double-entendres...

But yeah, as I seem to be rather fond of saying, it's Edric not Eddard, hence it doesn't technically belong in this discussion... ;)

[shadowbinding shoe]

HarryStark, on May 30 2007, 16.57, said:

Haha, yeah, talk about double-entendres...

But yeah, as I seem to be rather fond of saying, it's Edric not Eddard, hence it doesn't technically belong in this discussion... ;)

Wasn't he named after Eddard? Anyway he's called Ned so they have the same (nick)name

[Prince of the North]

I will always have a huge soft spot in my heart for ol' Eddard Stark.  However, not only is he really and truly dead but, IMHO, he absolutely HAD to die in order for this story to truly "live" for us!  You see, everyone close to Ned was sort of operating with a safety net when he was alive because, no matter what trouble they got into, he would be there to offer guidance, protection, call in favors or whatever to fix things.  His death was what catapulted his children into the major roles in the story - they don't have the great Eddard Stark with his sterling reputation around to help them anymore.  The stakes became that much higher for the kids when Ned made his mistakes and was taken out.

Not to mention, Ned's death drove home one of the major lessons of the series better than Cercei's actual utterance of it ever could: "In the Game of Thrones, you win or you die!"  

Indeed...Indeed...

[Reestlord]

Interesting thought: what if Ned has somehow survived and goes to the Wall? He would then be living there by the grace of Jon instead of the other way around, as it was at Winterfell. It would be an interesting reversal. I understand that there is about a 0.01% chance of this, or anything like this, actually happening in any way, but it would still be interesting.