208 replies to this topic

[MTGAP]

Catelyn says to Jon, "you don't belong here(winterfell)." Jon later reflects on this. But I think I know why she said that.

He is more a Stark than Catelyn could ever be. He likes it there, and she doesn't. She's jealous, and tries to put him down. I mean, think about it. Jon was loved by all the Starks (except Sansa possibly; she takes too much after her mother). He liked it there. When Catelyn went to Riverrun, I got the impression that she felt much more at home there than at Winterfell. She always was a bit out of place: a Tully at the Stark's castle. Jon at least has Stark blood.

People point out faults in others that they see in themselves.

[Rydis]

MTGAP, on Nov 22 2007, 14.45, said:

Catelyn says to Jon, "you don't belong here(winterfell)." Jon later reflects on this. But I think I know why she said that.

He is more a Stark than Catelyn could ever be. He likes it there, and she doesn't. She's jealous, and tries to put him down. I mean, think about it. Jon was loved by all the Starks (except Sansa possibly; she takes too much after her mother). He liked it there. When Catelyn went to Riverrun, I got the impression that she felt much more at home there than at Winterfell. She always was a bit out of place: a Tully at the Stark's castle. Jon at least has Stark blood.

People point out faults in others that they see in themselves.

Catelyn dont like bastards in general. She really dislikes him because he is around them. She said she wouldn't care as much if he had left him, but he brought him home. She looks at him and sees more of Ned then most of her own sons.

I think she felt rather home at Winterfell. and she even begins to miss it later. I think she said that to jon, because to her, he didn't belong in winterfell at all being a bastard. Plus shes depressed because of Bran. I think your looking a little to much into it.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Yes, it's called projection. She fears he is more like Ned than her children, and that he causes a threat to her own. She resents him because he is a contests with Robb in  swordplay, and age  (they are not certain if Jon or Robb is the elder).
Worse, Jon gets along with her children, save Sansa.

[Happy Ent]

Another explanation is that almost nobody in Westeros raises their own bastards in their castle. It's simply not done.

Another explanation (not using the social conventions of a fictional universe) is: would you accept your husband's bastard living with you? (Note: Jon is not a stepson or a child from a previous marriage. He's Ned's child on another woman while he was married to Catelyn.)

I agree with Catelyn: Jon shouldn't be there. I find nothing strange about that sentiment. You who disagree: why do you think Jon should be there? Should, in general, women accept their husband's infidelity by embracing the living proof of their betrayal? Or do you think the argument "It's not Jon's fault" is strong enough? If so, who should not live with the Starks? It's "not Moon Boy's fault" either that he wasn't born a true-born child of Lady Stark, so should Moon Boy live there?

(My take on this: Jon is the last person that Catelyn should accept. Theon Greyjoy and the Walders come before him, as does every random child in the continent. Then, far down on the list, is Jon Snow, whose presence at Winterfell is an unspeakable affront to Catelyn every single moment of their miserable enforced coexistence.)

So: No. Jon shouldn't be there.

[fionwe1987]

I agree with Happy Ent.
People read too much into this statement, meaning to use it as yet another "fact" that proves that Catelyn is a bad person. Frankly, she has no need, by Westerosi or modern customs, to accept the presence of her husband's bastard in her house. And that's the end of that.
Despite this, she does let him be. He's educated, trained with her children, given every comfort. That is far removed from the treatment he would have recieved anywhere else.
Incidentally, why the assumption that Sansa didn't get along with him? Sure, she wasn't his type, but there's nothing to say there wasn't genuine affection between them. Sansa even thinks yearningly of him in aFFC.

[Eloisa]

Happy Ent, on Nov 22 2007, 20.26, said:

*snip*
So: No. Jon shouldn't be there.

I entirely agree with the sentiments in this post.  The only reasons I think that readers disagree are:

• Jon is presented as a sympathetic POV character.
  
• There are relatively few successful fantasy books containing situations as authentically drawn as this, per Happy Ent's analysis.  People aren't used to reading about it.
  
• Similarly, there are relatively few successful fantasy books containing characters who suffer anything like genuine emotional/psychological reactions to grief, as Catelyn does.  It influences many readers (posters on this forum, at least) to dislike her in general.  I read people's posts slamming Cat round here all the time, and I just think: give the woman a break.  She's severely depressed for most of the books, for very good reasons.  Believe me, I know how it messes up the reactions.

Happy Ent's reasoning, of course, is why ifR+L = J, there is absolutely no way in heaven or hell that Ned could have told Cat.  She had to carry on hating Jon; Ned couldn't afford to have her treat him like a nephew instead of a cuckoo in her own chicks' nest.

[Elrick]

I don't think Catelyn was a bad person. She had her faults like all the characters in the series but I also understand why she disliked Jon. He was the reminder of Ned's love of some other woman. I think this was why she hated Jon so much not because of him as a person but rather what he represented. Also Jon does have his faults, for one he's surpassingly arrogant.

[The Journeyman]

Just to pretty much repeat everything that's already been said, Jon doesn't have a place in Winterfell. He's (supposedly) Ned's base-born son so he isn't a legitimate heir. Robb is the oldest legitimate Stark and then it would fall to Bran and finally Rickon after the two of them.

It's not uncommon for the lords of Winterfell to have bastards. Robert has plenty, the exact number is given in AFFC when Cersei reflects on what the Maegi told her as a child. Roose Bolton has Ramsay, and even Evil Old Walder Frey had a couple.

However, Ned has taken his back to his castle and raised him alongside his children. This isn't the commonly accepted practice. Most men acknowledge their base-born children but don't raise them. Of course, Ned is famous (or infamous, however you choose to call it) for his honor so he wouldn't abandon any child he sired.

The other big reason why Catelyn despises Jon is that he looks more a Stark than Ned's other sons. Robb, Bran, and Rickon all have the reddish-brown hair and blue eyes of the Tullys while Jon has the dark hair, lean figure, and long face of the Starks.

When Catelyn looks at him she sees more of Ned than in her own children.

Edited by The Journeyman, 22 November 2007 - 04:35 PM.

[Ser Garlan the Gallant]

I think you can blame Catelyn, for it is really a problem between her and Ned; she's simply channeling the anger towards Jon, and I think this does indicate certain flaws on her part.  Why has she allowed this to go on for so long?  She should have confronted Ned about it long ago, regardless of what he said the first time she broached the subject (that Jon is Ned's blood, and that is the end of it).  But instead Catelyn seems somehow to have been able to push the question aside in her mind.   She then let this coping mechanism (the channeling of the anger towards Jon) go on for so long that by AGoT it had almost developed into a hatred.

edit: switched around a few words to change the meaning

Edited by Ser Garlan the Gallant, 22 November 2007 - 05:14 PM.

[Happy Ent]

Ser Garlan the Gallant, on Nov 22 2007, 22.59, said:

it had almost developed into a hatred.

Yet the book merely tells us that she "couldn't find it in herself to love Jon" or something like that. That's a far cry from "hatred".

Apart from that, I'm flabbergasted that you actually manage to blame Catelyn for this. It's her fault now: her husband comes home with an illegitimate child, she confronts him, she tells her to never ask about Jon again, she bites it back and lives with it, to the point of even trying to love the boy (and failing), yet it's her fault? Astounding.

[Ser Garlan the Gallant]

As in another thread still within memory, you're ignoring my main point and running away with something else of your own creation.  Listen, hers is not behavior befitting an adult.  I can't believe that there were no moments of introspection in, what, fourteen years (thirteen since she arrived in Winterfell?)?  After years of this, Catelyn should have realized she'd allowed it to get out of hand.  Her near-hatred of Jon is totally misplaced.  She should have long ago realized this and then had the courage to face up to the real problem, namely that between her and Ned.  As to this business concerning her attempts to come to love Jon...I'm not sure where you're getting this.  The book, in fact, tells quite another story:

AGoT p. 55 (US hardback reprint) said:

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away.  It was the one thing she could never forgive him.  She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon.  She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so land as they were out of sight.  Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.  Somehow that made it worse.  "Jon must go," she said now.
     "He and Robb are close," Ned said.  "I had hoped..."
     "He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off.  "He is your son, not mine.  I will not have him."  It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth.  Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

I think Sansa does love Jon and vice versa. I never got the impression that Jon and Sansa didn’t get along. Jon certainly has no bad thoughts about her, he thinks of her fondly a few times. Her mother’s and the Septa’s influence and society in general caused her to remind herself that he was a bastard and a half-brother. I think a little more time spent as Alayne will cause Sansa to realise what life may have been like for Jon at Winterfell.
I think Cat always saw Jon as a very real threat to his legitimate siblings, she mentions the Blackfyre Rebellion to Rob in a ASOS.

[Dacey]

Well, I love Catelyn - she's my second or third favorite character - and I completely agree with Happy Ent's points about why her sentiment is quite justified. But I also think the OP's got something of a point.

I don't think it's about Cat herself not fitting in at Winterfell, but it is, as RhaegarTargaryen said, about the fact that her own children - especially Robb - mostly don't look as much like Ned as Jon does. A lot of Catelyn's pain over the Jon issue involves the fear that Ned loved Jon's mother more than her - that all her love and loyalty and sacrifices mean so little to Ned that he won't do her the basic courtesy of raising his bastard someplace else, or even explaining his decision not to. And the fact that her own son doesn't look like Ned, and Jon does, makes that situation so much worse. It means Ashara-or-whoever was able to give Ned a son who was a "true Stark" in looks if not in name, and she couldn't. Cat is all about family, duty, honor, and in a patriarchal society like Westeros, a woman's most important duty is to give her husband a strong heir. And on a certain level she must feel like Jon's mother outdid her in that. Jon's Stark looks symbolize all those fears for her, and, yeah, I think that's a factor in why it's important to her to insist he doesn't belong at Winterfell - though she has plenty of other good reasons as well.

I do not think it makes Catelyn a bad person that she can't get over this. I think it's a totally understandable thing to have an issue with - it reminds me a bit of my half-sister. She's adopted, and always felt kind of angsty over that, and when she got pregnant it was a big deal to her that she'd finally have someone who was family-by-blood. And then, when her first daughter looked nothing like her, deep down it was a major disappointment to her. You know it doesn't really matter, but it hurts.

Under the circumstances - and especially given Ned's refusal to talk the issue out with her - I think it's impressive and admirable that Catelyn even tries to love Jon.

[Rydis]

Tourmaline Dragon, on Nov 22 2007, 18.31, said:

I think Sansa does love Jon and vice versa. I never got the impression that Jon and Sansa didn’t get along. Jon certainly has no bad thoughts about her, he thinks of her fondly a few times. Her mother’s and the Septa’s influence and society in general caused her to remind herself that he was a bastard and a half-brother. I think a little more time spent as Alayne will cause Sansa to realise what life may have been like for Jon at Winterfell.
I think Cat always saw Jon as a very real threat to his legitimate siblings, she mentions the Blackfyre Rebellion to Rob in a ASOS.

If i recall correctly, i am sure the only information we are given between Jon and Sana connection is that she calls him bastard brother (from AGOT). Besides that, I dont think she shares the dissaproval as Catelyn does. The fact that she wanted to see Jon in AFFC was due to the fact she was now living a bastard life and probably feels she could relate (also being that fact she believes him the only living family she has left).

[QuietColours]

Rydis, on Nov 22 2007, 20.22, said:

If i recall correctly, i am sure the only information we are given between Jon and Sana connection is that she calls him bastard brother (from AGOT). Besides that, I dont think she shares the dissaproval as Catelyn does. The fact that she wanted to see Jon in AFFC was due to the fact she was now living a bastard life and probably feels she could relate (also being that fact she believes him the only living family she has left).

Not entirely true--both give hints to their relationship in later books.  Jon remembers that she told him to always tell girls their name is pretty after they introduce themselves.  A little sister advising an older brother on how to talk to girls just sounds cute to me.  Sansa being so status conscious probably didn't help their relationship, but I think the fact they have pretty much nothing in common--Jon being drawn to typical teenage boy pursuits like fighting, Sansa being several years younger and more inclined towards quieter artsy type things (she likes needlework, both listening to and making music, we're told she writes poetry in AGOT, ect.)--just doesn't give them a whole lot to bond over.

[bacchys]

Ser Garlan the Gallant, on Nov 22 2007, 15.20, said:

As in another thread still within memory, you're ignoring my main point and running away with something else of your own creation.  Listen, hers is not behavior befitting an adult.  I can't believe that there were no moments of introspection in, what, fourteen years (thirteen since she arrived in Winterfell?)?  After years of this, Catelyn should have realized she'd allowed it to get out of hand.  Her near-hatred of Jon is totally misplaced.  She should have long ago realized this and then had the courage to face up to the real problem, namely that between her and Ned.  As to this business concerning her attempts to come to love Jon...I'm not sure where you're getting this.  The book, in fact, tells quite another story:

There's no Oprah in Westeros, and no reason why she'd feel compelled to engage in the kind of therapy you imagine here.

Her emotions and reactions to Jon are perfectly reasonable when you consider the culture Martin has created here.  She regards Jon as a threat to her own children, and every success he has in life only increases that threat- especially since he looks so much a Stark.

It's a credit to Catelyn that she treated him as well as she did (merely coldly) and didn't try to murder him...

[Lady Blackfish]

I totally don't get where people think that Sansa never got along with Jon.  She isn't thinking of him all the time, so that means she hated him?  Melodramatic just a little?

[Dacey]

Lady Blackfish, on Nov 22 2007, 21.57, said:

I totally don't get where people think that Sansa never got along with Jon.  She isn't thinking of him all the time, so that means she hated him?  Melodramatic just a little?

Easy. It's not just because she doesn't think about him; it's because Sansa is very class-conscious, way moreso than the other Stark kids, and she's the only one who makes sure to call him her half-brother, when the rest just call him their brother. And those stories Sansa loves so much would include stories about evil, jealous bastards.

I mean, I don't think they didn't get along, but I can easily see where somebody'd get that idea, if you picked up on the half-brother thing and missed the very few times when they think fondly of each other.

[MTGAP]

Eloisa, on Nov 22 2007, 14.41, said:

Similarly, there are relatively few successful fantasy books containing characters who suffer anything like genuine emotional/psychological reactions to grief, as Catelyn does.  It influences many readers (posters on this forum, at least) to dislike her in general.  I read people's posts slamming Cat round here all the time, and I just think: give the woman a break.  She's severely depressed for most of the books, for very good reasons.  Believe me, I know how it messes up the reactions.

I don't think Catelyn is a bad person. She's just boring to read about. But you make a good point, Ent.

[fionwe1987]

Dacey, on Nov 23 2007, 00.12, said:

Easy. It's not just because she doesn't think about him; it's because Sansa is very class-conscious, way moreso than the other Stark kids, and she's the only one who makes sure to call him her half-brother, when the rest just call him their brother. And those stories Sansa loves so much would include stories about evil, jealous bastards.

I mean, I don't think they didn't get along, but I can easily see where somebody'd get that idea, if you picked up on the half-brother thing and missed the very few times when they think fondly of each other.

In Bran's very first PoV, he continually refers to Jon as his bastard brother. Does that mean Bran isn't close to Jon as well?
As for Sansa, her class consciousness is very different from what that term usually implies. For her, it means that she thinks being a lady implies doing all that things ladies are supposed to do, ie., look pretty, be gentle and courteous, but also be brave and helpful to those below her.