208 replies to this topic

[Happy Ent]

BlueLion70, on Jan 4 2008, 22.47, said:

Well said, I think many people overlook this. Yes, Catelyn is a bitch to Jon, but he is a visual and tangible representation of her husband's infidelity

No, she's not a bitch to Jon. She merely doesn't find it in herself to love him. That's not the same as being a bitch.

(Unless you think her behaviour at Bran's sickbed is typical of how she behaved towards Jon. We have GRRM's word that it wasn't.)

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Jan 4 2008, 18.14, said:

Maester Cressan,
Do you know who Jon and Robb's relationship (prior to Jon taking the Black) resembles most, Tywin and Kevan Lannister.

I don't think so.

Kevan was basically in Tywin's shadow, and acted the dutiful younger brother.

Jon and Robb were pretty much on equal footing each holding their own, treating each other as friendly rivals. Jon and Robb were more like Ned and Robert.

[Jon Targaryen]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Jan 4 2008, 14.14, said:

Do you know who Jon and Robb's relationship (prior to Jon taking the Black) resembles most, Tywin and Kevan Lannister.

Well, I don't really see that, if only because Jon and Robb don't spend much time together before Jon takes the black. In the first Bran chapter, they seem to be friendly rivals. If anything, Jon takes the lead when he sacrifices his own having a wolf for his siblings. When they next interact on screen, when Jon is leaving, they again seem to be equals. They embrace and make sad jokes with each other. I just don't see the dutiful, deferring aspect to Jon wrt the Robb-Jon relationship.

[true wolf]

Jon should be in Winterfell because his father wants him there, and his father is the Lord of the Castle.  To hell with Catlyn.  Sure I understand why she doesn't want him there, even before he was kicking Robbs ass in the yard, but that isn't something that Eddard would care about, especially since he knows that Jon is Trueborn and not a Bastard at all, and that his similarity in looks is not because Jon s his, but of his Sister.  
Ultimately I think it will be Eddard that tells Jon of his linneage (in a dream).  I am not kidding when I say "TO HELL WITH CATLYN"  She was a terrible mother, and terrible servant.  She ought to have remembered her place.

Edited by true wolf, 05 January 2008 - 02:37 AM.

[Errant Bard]

true wolf, on Jan 5 2008, 08.27, said:

he was kicking Robbs ass in the yard

He wasn't. He is stronger with a sword and Robb stronger with the lance, that pretty much hints at an equal footing with slight difference in skill, not "asskicking" feats.

Anyway, Cat objected that a bastard and a trueborn should not be given the same treatment, it has little to do with Jon's supposed prowesses with a sword.

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especially since he knows that Jon is Trueborn and not a Bastard at all, and that his similarity in looks is not because Jon s his, but of his Sister.

Not fact, neither for the readers nor for Catelyn, so utterly irrelevant.

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She was a terrible mother and terrible servant.

She was not Jon's mother, she was intelligent yet caring when it came to her own children, and she was noone's servant.  

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She ought to have remembered her place.

She did. As Lady Stark, she appealed to her husband and he accepted her point of view. Beside, it was always her prerogative to tell him that if he wanted to sleep on the couch, he knew what to do. As Lady Stark, she had no obligation to accept any bastard as her own. As Ned's wife and head of the house Jon lived in, she had a right to information that were denied to her. Her "place" gave her the right to exile Ned's bastards, like every other noble lady in Westeros, if she had wanted.

Edited by Errant Bard, 05 January 2008 - 04:05 AM.

[Jon Targaryen]

Errant Bard, on Jan 5 2008, 01.02, said:

Her "place" gave her the right to exile Ned's bastards, like every other noble lady in Westeros, if she had wanted.

I don't know if that is exactly true. I don't recall other noble wives "exiling" their husband's bastards from the castle. It is custom in Westeros for bastards to be fostered elsewhere. But I don't think Catelyn had the right to exile Jon, else she would have.

From the book, she tried to persuade Ned to send Jon away but nothing she could do would sway him. That indicates to me she does not have the "right" to exile Jon. Elsewise, she would have exercised it. She wanted to, certainly.

[Errant Bard]

True, "right" streams down from the king down through noble ranks, and is absolute, but I don't know how much credit her couple harmony should get for Jon's situation. Had Cat really pushed it and threatened to leave, raised a scandal, asked for support from her family, from other nobles and really made her staff and children not accept Jon and make life miserable for him, what could have Ned done?

As we saw with the reaction to A) Kingslaying B) Red wedding, tradition is strong, maybe stronger than official laws so in breaking tradition, Ned was open to overwhelming opposition, had someone decided to push the issue.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

She resented having Jon raised in Winterfell, but she wasn't going to risk her relationship with Ned over the issue, which actually makes her a good wife and mother.

I can't really blame her for the way she felt about Jon, for her husband to leave her after their wedding night, and come back a year later with another woman's child into their home before he even had a chance to see the child she bore him, has to be very crushing to a young woman.

[Stormbringer03]

The Scabbard Of the Morning, on Jan 5 2008, 10.27, said:

I can't really blame her for the way she felt about Jon, for her husband to leave her after their wedding night, and come back a year later with another woman's child into their home before he even had a chance to see the child she bore him, has to be very crushing to a young woman.

Only one night huh?  Hmmm.  Ned and Cat scored a hole-in-one.

Surprised they only had four more in the following 14 years.

[Lady Blackfish]

Well, there is the gestation period.

[true wolf]

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She did. As Lady Stark, she appealed to her husband and he accepted her point of view. Beside, it was always her prerogative to tell him that if he wanted to sleep on the couch, he knew what to do. As Lady Stark, she had no obligation to accept any bastard as her own. As Ned's wife and head of the house Jon lived in, she had a right to information that were denied to her. Her "place" gave her the right to exile Ned's bastards, like every other noble lady in Westeros, if she had wanted.

When I say "remember her place" I am refering to Winterfell, not following Robb around the Riverlands, or hanging out with her father while her sons are butchered (as far as she knows), or letting the Castle be put to the torch.  She should have listened to her son, and if not to him then to her King and gone back to Winterfell straight from Kings Landing, instead she inserts herself in Robbs enterage and makes him look like a kid in front of his bannermen, and the rest of the realm.

[Jon Targaryen]

Errant Bard, on Jan 5 2008, 01.50, said:

True, "right" streams down from the king down through noble ranks, and is absolute, but I don't know how much credit her couple harmony should get for Jon's situation. Had Cat really pushed it and threatened to leave, raised a scandal, asked for support from her family, from other nobles and really made her staff and children not accept Jon and make life miserable for him, what could have Ned done?

As we saw with the reaction to A) Kingslaying B) Red wedding, tradition is strong, maybe stronger than official laws so in breaking tradition, Ned was open to overwhelming opposition, had someone decided to push the issue.

Well, if you believe R+L=J then Ned would have fought to the death to keep Jon with him in Winterfell, both because of his promise to Lyanna and to protect his nephew from Robert (he might have been willing to foster him with Howland). If you don't believe R+L=J, as you don't, then I guess Ned might bowed to the pressure if Catelyn had brought all her forces to the fight.

[Errant Bard]

Jon Targaryen, on Jan 5 2008, 19.17, said:

If you don't believe R+L=J, as you don't, then I guess Ned might bowed to the pressure if Catelyn had brought all her forces to the fight.

It's not that I don't, it's that I would prefer if it didn't come true, or failing that, if it did come true in a manner that would not feel like the old fantasy cliche of the whole realm bowing to an unknown boy because that one guy said he is the son of such and such. In the end, I just consider that other theories also have a chance of being true, so I don't want to narrow down my options with a maybe false construct, when it comes to extrapolation.

Moving on... What Ned would have done doesn't really matter that much, in my scenario, it's what Cat did or didn't do that mattered. I was arguing about her right and her place, and although she had (apparently) the means to make Ned yield she didn't use them and tried to accept Jon, never pushing the issue.

@True Wolf: For some reason, I find your sentence about a determined mother listening to her 15 year old son -actually make that listening to her son at all- hilarious. Have you ever had any luck with your mother?
I also wish to remind you that without Cat trying to actually protect her children, Robb would have lost the war the first time he came to the twins. Your conception of what should have happened amounts to "Quiet, woman, let me lose the war and kill my sisters as I see fit".

Edited by Errant Bard, 05 January 2008 - 01:45 PM.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

If Catelyn stayed at Winterfell, I don't see how she would protect it on her own. If Robb listened to her and sent another envoy to Ironborn, none of it would happen. Catelyn stayed with Robb in part because she knew that if he lost, they all would lose.
Hell, she wanted the war to end which was actually the good idea. We know how well it all ended.
How many women do you think would just shut up and accept their husband' bastards? Try this stuff with your wife and you are most likely to hear from her lawyer. :)

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Catelyn is not entirely faultless though. If she wanted the war to end, she should have not released Jaime.  

Jaime was the ace in the hole that the North could use to sue for peace.  Once Robb no longer had Jaime as hostage,  he had no chips to play.

[Cruella_Da_Oz]

Catelyn is not faultless or perfect (obviously) and not all of her judgements are right ones,  but I don't see this one as significant. At least not as far as end of the war is concerned.
Jaime was just sitting uselessly imprisoned. There were no negotiations, Robb wasn't interested in ending the war, lord Tywin didn't start negotiations and is shown as too tough a motherfucker to give up much even to save his favourite son. The only thing Jamie's imprisonment served was keeping him out of the game. Back when I read it, it seemed singificant, but really he's not much more than excellent fighter, which is cool, but not decisive factor in war, and decent leader who proved to be too arrogant and rush.  More likely than not someone would kill him eventually enraging Lannisters even more. It almost happened, right? Catelyn tried to make at least some use of him, to at least get her girls back.
Red Wedding would happen no matter where Jamie was.

[drunkenJedi]

Cruella_Da_Oz, on Jan 5 2008, 23.50, said:

Catelyn is not faultless or perfect (obviously) and not all of her judgements are right ones,  but I don't see this one as significant. At least not as far as end of the war is concerned.
Jaime was just sitting uselessly imprisoned. There were no negotiations, Robb wasn't interested in ending the war, lord Tywin didn't start negotiations and is shown as too tough a motherfucker to give up much even to save his favourite son. The only thing Jamie's imprisonment served was keeping him out of the game. Back when I read it, it seemed singificant, but really he's not much more than excellent fighter, which is cool, but not decisive factor in war, and decent leader who proved to be too arrogant and rush.  More likely than not someone would kill him eventually enraging Lannisters even more. It almost happened, right? Catelyn tried to make at least some use of him, to at least get her girls back.
Red Wedding would happen no matter where Jamie was.

Jaime is a decisive factor in the war, as his almost legendary skill with his sword is a great encouragement for the troops he leads and frightens his opponents. Imagine having to fight in a battle against an army led by the famous Kingslayer as opposed to fighting against an army led by some generic Lannister-spawn that no one really knows.

And letting Jaime go certainly enraged the Karstarks. Besides, the fact that there were no peace negotiations doesn't mean that there would never be. Had the Red Wedding not happened, Robb would have likely made some sort of peace with the Lannisters, and having Jaime would have certainly improved his position.

[Happy Ent]

drunkenJedi, on Jan 6 2008, 00.41, said:

Jaime is a decisive factor in the war, as his almost legendary skill with his sword is a great encouragement for the troops he leads and frightens his opponents.

(This is turning into a different thread now. I'll only reply to this tangent once.)

No. Jaime is a complete moron as a battle commander. His father is unwise in trusting him with a large army. Jaime fails to take Riverrun, and afterwards gets himself captured. As an enemy battle commander, he's a dream come true: easy to fool, impetuous, glory-hungry, ... Tywin would do just as well entrusting a host to Daven, Kevan, or even Adam Marbrand. The new Jaime that we see in FfC is a dangerous commander, precisely because he doesn't behave like old Jaime.

And after his capture we have several book quotes to convince us that Tywin has given up Jaime for dead. Tywin makes sure that Jaime holds no value as a hostage.

In summary, as a battle commander, Jaime's value is dubious. As a hostage, Tywin made sure that Jaime's value was zero.

[Lady Blackfish]

Happy Ent, on Jan 5 2008, 17.49, said:

This is turning into a different thread now.

Surprising how these things always turn into free-for-alls. /sarcasm

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Tywin acted as though the value was zero, because he didn't want to show weakness. It doesn't mean privately Jaime didn't mean anything to him.  It obviously did.  Besides, Tywin knew Jaime was captured, and not killed, ransoming noble POWs is very customary and common in Westeros.  Tywin knew that Robb would not kill Jaime, and if Tywin can win the war, he can eventually negotiate a release. The only way Jaime is dead is if Tywin losses the war, in which case Jaime has no more value to Robb.

Tywin, being the shrewd man he is, put Jaime out of his mind so that he can focus on winning the war which is ultimately the best way to ensure Jaime's life.