208 replies to this topic

[Trackrunner]

Dacey, on Nov 23 2007, 00.12, said:

Easy. It's not just because she doesn't think about him; it's because Sansa is very class-conscious, way moreso than the other Stark kids, and she's the only one who makes sure to call him her half-brother, when the rest just call him their brother.

That seems arguable.  In ASoS, Arya thinks to herself that Jon is a Snow, not a Stark.  So she also recognizes him as a bastard.

[Happy Ent]

So, is there anybody on this thread who will come out and say "Yes, Cat is wrong: Jon should stay at Winterfell!" If so, please explain if you are using the social standards of Westeros (according to which you'd be wrong, IMO) or Real Life (according to which you'd be even wronger, IMO) as a basis for your argument.

[suffix]

I am way biased towards jon so...

I dont like catelyn not even a little but she has every right to refuse or failing to love jon and she is stuck in her ways
and the rest everyone pretty much covered it and some would agree catelyn sometimes is 1 short of a 6 pack

[arya_underfoot]

i think it was extremely unfair for ned to demand that jon be raised at winterfell and that catelyn never ask about jon's mother....

its a slap in the face to catelyn. its the one thing about ned that i dislike. he could've easily had jon raised as a soldier in one of his vassal's castles. or if insisted on keeping jon at winterfell he at least owed catelyn a proper explanation.

i'm fully with catelyn on this one.

also, i think sansa loved jon as much as soceity (and esp people like septa mordane) would allow. the other stark kids overstepped their boundaries, so to speak, much to catelyn's disgust.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Cat's attitudes are certainly understandable but they're sad, petty and misplaced at the same time nonetheless. It's pretty clear that the main thing that bothers her about him is that she sees him as proof that Ned loves someone else (Jon's mother) more than her. So being in the society that she lives in she can't do much about it (like leaving Ned for example) and instead bottles up her anger inside. Catelyn lacks confidence in her role as a woman. She was raised as her father's son before Edmure was born and she is not a great beauty. This insecurity on the love of her husband when we know how much she loves him is one of the saddest things about her story.

You're exaggerating about the society's standards here Happy Ent, some fathers behave one way, some in another. Bolton decides to treat his bastard son as a legal son after his trueborn sons dies, a lot of nobles give their bastard sons high placed positions and as companions to their true sons both in the story and in European history. They have the advantages of noble heritage and education while being expendable and without hopes of independent advancement.

[mormont]

Dacey, on Nov 23 2007, 05.12, said:

Easy. It's not just because she doesn't think about him; it's because Sansa is very class-conscious, way moreso than the other Stark kids, and she's the only one who makes sure to call him her half-brother, when the rest just call him their brother.

You have that backwards, I'm afraid. In fact, Arya is the only one who calls Jon her brother: as others have pointed out, the rest all make the distinction.

Rydis, on Nov 23 2007, 01.22, said:

The fact that she wanted to see Jon in AFFC was due to the fact she was now living a bastard life and probably feels she could relate (also being that fact she believes him the only living family she has left).

In fact, Alayne/Sansa is not living a typical 'bastard life', but it's much closer to one that Jon's ever was. Jon's life as a bastard was highly atypical.

[Happy Ent]

shadowbinding shoe, on Nov 23 2007, 11.39, said:

Bolton decides to treat his bastard son as a legal son after his trueborn sons dies, a lot of nobles give their bastard sons high placed positions [...]

The question of this thread was: "Should Jon be there?". Bolton's son wasn't.

I still want somebody to say "I disagree with Catelyn. Jon should be raised at Winterfell, because..."

[Lady Blackfish]

I don't think Catelyn was disgusted with her children loving Jon, I think she was wary about if he could be trusted and more so insecure that his presence meant she hadn't done her duty well enough (like Dacey pretty much said above).  I don't think her issue is that Jon is more a Stark than she is.  She does her best to assimilate and she doesn't always feel she measures up, but that's not in competition with Jon.  It has to do with the children she provided not being good enough.  That is all her value is in life, really.  The only guaranteed relevance she has in society is as an heir provider.  Everything else Ned allows her to do is exactly that, what he allows her to do, it's a privilege she happens to enjoy because he happens to be a nice guy, but it's out the window if she doesn't give him suitable heirs.  She interprets Ned's behavior about the matter as such a criticism.  I don't find it an unreasonable interpretation, honestly, given how open he probably was about everything else (in fact everything about it was singular, Jon was singularly favored as a bastard, it was a singular sexual indiscretion on Ned's part as far as anyone can tell, it is the one thing he chews her out over ... those are definitely "This is a big deal" signals), though of course it is unfortunate.

If you believe in R+L=J, as I do, the nature of the promise Ned made to Lyanna might be why he had to be raised at Winterfell.  Ned is also the type to do everything himself, he leads his army from the front, he executes his own prisoners, etc, so that could be part of that attitude.  The one really compelling reason I think he has to not tell her about Jon's true parentage (again if you believe R+L=J) is if there ever was a situation where she had to tell what she knows to save her children's lives, she would, and knowing that maybe he decided it'd be best to avoid that choice altogether.  Plus honestly it'd make people talk more if she wasn't visibly bothered, in a way it's safer, sadly.

I doubt her looks had to do with anything, she was at least near as attractive as Sansa is becoming, and all pretty much agree Sansa is highly attractive.  I don't think she was insecure as a woman overall, she sometimes doubted herself and sometimes didn't.  I actually always thought that was one of the things GRRM did really well with her, he made her a pretty typical human being with both confidences and insecurities, like most people have.  

Also, I have to say, and I love Ned so don't get me wrong, but he doesn't strike me as the demonstratively affectionate type.  I think she knew he loved her in his way ultimately ("but after the war, hadn't she love enough for any woman?" and a couple lines at the very end of the RW chapter, for reference) and accepted him for his emotionally reserved self but I think she definitely had to accept that he saw her as duty first.  I think she would've been okay with him loving someone else too, and loving her more, if he could leave her in the past.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there are lines that say she suppressed her memories of Brandon for basically the last 15 years, but from her POV he has a reminder of Ashara/Wylla/whoever around every day.  So I don't think it makes her particularly insecure to conclude that some part of Ned might find her a little lacking.

[mormont]

arya_underfoot, on Nov 23 2007, 09.54, said:

also, i think sansa loved jon as much as soceity (and esp people like septa mordane) would allow. the other stark kids overstepped their boundaries, so to speak, much to catelyn's disgust.

I'm not sure that Sansa's relationship with Jon was the exception, or that boundaries had actually been overstepped, or that Cat was 'disgusted' by this.

Arya, we know, was exceptionally close to Jon, and Robb and Jon were obviously close too. But we don't really have much to say that Bran was closer to him than Sansa was, and we have no substantial interactions between Rickon and Jon at all, even in Jon's recollections, which makes it hard to judge. I'd guess that for reasons of age, etc. Jon and Rickon were probably much less close than Jon and Sansa.

And I don't see any signs that Cat was 'disgusted' by Jon's relationships with her children. Cat certainly had several negative reactions to Jon, but that wasn't one of them that I recall.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Lady Blackfish:
I didn't say she didn't have a reason to feel the way she does, just that it's sad. She's not sure her husband loves her as much as she does him.

But she wasn't completely powerless. For example Cercei whom her husband loved less had plenty of power. Proper behavior puts restrictions on what the husband can do and her father's family can also puts checks on his power (the marriage is made to cement an alliance between the two families after all.)

Also should Catelyn's sons have nothing of the Tully heritage in them? We may like the Starks more but they're still her children, not just Ned Stark's clones and Cat thinks highly of her Tully father and her family heritage. So does Ned as far as we know.


Mormont:
When Rickon accuses people of leaving him he includes Jon as one of the family members who abandoned him. So he sees Jon as one of his brothers.

[Tsoert]

Cat's attitude is understandable but still ridiculous. Her fears are misplaced, Jon grew up to be an honourable person, as his "father" is, and a loyal friend to the heir of Winterfell. If Jon had stayed at Winterfell with Robb things would have panned out very differently I think.

Ned taking in his bastard and treating him as nearly an equal is not a suprise and not a new thing either. Some lords are seen to have takin in their bastards and treat them almost as equals except when social protocol dictates they musn't. So yes I disagree with Catelyn. Whilst her attitude is understandable, Jon has every right to be raised at Winterfell and would have been a great help to Robb if Cat hadn't been a complete blind fool and allowed him to stay.

[Errant Bard]

shadowbinding shoe, on Nov 23 2007, 12.33, said:

When Rickon accuses people of leaving him he includes Jon as one of the family members who abandoned him. So he sees Jon as one of his brothers.

And Sansa, when thinking of her family in AFFC, thinks of Jon. What's your point?

Even Arya isn't white in this respect, by the way. She was afraid to be a bastard like Jon. She loves him, but he still isn't on the same level as her. She likes about everyone anyway, from stable hands to random swordsmasters. Doesn't mean she isn't as rank-conscious as Sansa. She is.


I think Cat's reaction to Jon is way overblown. She doesn't hate him, she isn't disgusted by him, she just loves her own children and not him. Jon himself understands, he hates his status, not his mother-in-law.

Cat is hardly petty in her reaction. She suffered him in her own house for 15 years, allowed him to be raised with her own children, didn't segregate him even though she could, as proven by what happened when Joffrey came to Winterfell, and all that while being kept in the dark by her own husband. She had a right to know about a child she's supposed to accept as her child, especially when he could threaten her own children, the Blackfyre rebellion isn't that old, and Ned refuses to even give her ground to accept him. He even makes it so that she thinks Jon is the son of Ashara, and that he is so fiercely attached to the memory he can become extraordinarily scary about it. This threatens her children's very legitimacy, and she still lets him be. Now I hear she should have taken upon herself to accept him? She has.

For the famous "it should have been you", show me a half mad grieving person who doesn't lash out, at everyone, even loved ones?

StarkedyStark, on Nov 23 2007, 13.03, said:

Cat's attitude is understandable but still ridiculous. Her fears are misplaced, Jon grew up to be an honourable person, as his "father" is, and a loyal friend to the heir of Winterfell. If Jon had stayed at Winterfell with Robb things would have panned out very differently I think.

Like Theon Greyjoy. Such a good friend. Or like Daemon Blackfyre. Not mentionning Ned never bothered to calm her fears, only confirmed them with his every decision about Jon. Add to that, Jon wanted Winterfell earnestly.

You are accusing Cat of not being able to see the future and read thoughts. I for one can't fault her for this.

Edited by Errant Bard, 23 November 2007 - 07:12 AM.

[mormont]

shadowbinding shoe, on Nov 23 2007, 11.33, said:

Mormont:
When Rickon accuses people of leaving him he includes Jon as one of the family members who abandoned him. So he sees Jon as one of his brothers.

Thart doesn't follow, I'm afraid. I mean, it certainly follows that he sees Jon as someone with a connection to him, maybe even part of his family, but it certainly doesn't show that he considers him a brother rather than a half-brother or that he is closer to Jon than Sansa is.

StarkedyStark, on Nov 23 2007, 12.03, said:

Ned taking in his bastard and treating him as nearly an equal is not a surprise and not a new thing either. Some lords are seen to have takin in their bastards and treat them almost as equals except when social protocol dictates they musn't.

Name one.

There are bastards who have earned a position in Westerosi society and hence are treated with respect, if not as 'equals' of their legitimate half-siblings: and there are bastards who have good relations with their family. However, other than Jon I am unable to recall any other bastard that was taken in by their father and raised along with his legitimate children. The reason being that social protocol always demands that this mustn't happen. Ned is deliberately breaking it. What he is doing is very definitely a surprise. I can't say for sure it's without precedent, but it is so far as we know unique.

Quote

So yes I disagree with Catelyn. Whilst her attitude is understandable, Jon has every right to be raised at Winterfell and would have been a great help to Robb if Cat hadn't been a complete blind fool and allowed him to stay.

I'm sorry, but bastards have virtually no rights other than to the bastard name. They most certainly don't have a 'right' to be raised at their father's home.

[Eloisa]

mormont, on Nov 23 2007, 14.13, said:

There are bastards who have earned a position in Westerosi society and hence are treated with respect, if not as 'equals' of their legitimate half-siblings: and there are bastards who have good relations with their family. However, other than Jon I am unable to recall any other bastard that was taken in by their father and raised along with his legitimate children.

Walder Frey did the same for at least some of his bastards.  :)  However, he is singular in many respects.

Do we have any details on where Roose Bolton had stashed Ramsay Snow before Domenick died?  I can't remember anything about that.

[mormont]

Eloisa, on Nov 23 2007, 15.29, said:

Walder Frey did the same for at least some of his bastards.  :)  However, he is singular in many respects.

Walder certainly raised his bastards in his home, yes. But we don't know that he raised them alongside his legitimate children. Given that he several times (IIRC) draws a sharp distinction between his bastard children and the rest, both when speaking to them and of them, I think it's not necessarily a safe assumption that he did.

[Branfangd]

mormont, on Nov 23 2007, 11.03, said:

Arya, we know, was exceptionally close to Jon, and Robb and Jon were obviously close too. But we don't really have much to say that Bran was closer to him than Sansa was, and we have no substantial interactions between Rickon and Jon at all, even in Jon's recollections, which makes it hard to judge. I'd guess that for reasons of age, etc. Jon and Rickon were probably much less close than Jon and Sansa.

It was mentioned that Bran Would always Follow Jon and Robb around and try to be a part of whatever they were thatrs TextBook younger brother behaviour

[Happy Ent]

StarkedyStark, on Nov 23 2007, 13.03, said:

So yes I disagree with Catelyn. Whilst her attitude is understandable, Jon has every right to be raised at Winterfell and would have been a great help to Robb if Cat hadn't been a complete blind fool and allowed him to stay.

Would you think that in general (for example in this world) women should be as accepting of their husbands' infedility as Catelyn is? Would you accept it if you husband (1) cheated on you and (2) raised the proof of his betrayal at home, in front of your eyes? Moreover, when he then took a year-long business trip, would you think you should raise the child?

(Especially if you're rich, so you could afford a boarding school—the closest real life equivalent I can think of to fostering the child with another lord.)

[Jon Targaryen]

MTGAP, on Nov 22 2007, 11.45, said:

Catelyn says to Jon, "you don't belong here(winterfell)." Jon later reflects on this.

Where does this happen? Both her saying it and the "reflection"?

[A wilding]

Eloisa, on Nov 23 2007, 15.29, said:

Do we have any details on where Roose Bolton had stashed Ramsay Snow before Domenick died?  I can't remember anything about that.

Somewhere other than the Dreadfort, but we don’t know where.

[The hairy bear]

Jon Targaryen, on Nov 23 2007, 19.08, said:

Where does this happen? Both her saying it and the "reflection"?

I'm afraid the quote comes from the allucination Jon has after being struck by Iron Emmet:

It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

So when allucinating, Jon imagines Catelyn with a look on her face that seems to say that Jon doesn't belong to Winterfell. What a bitch is she.  :bs:

mormont, on Nov 23 2007, 12.03, said:

And I don't see any signs that Cat was 'disgusted' by Jon's relationships with her children. Cat certainly had several negative reactions to Jon, but that wasn't one of them that I recall.

I think the only negative reaction in this regard is when Jon competed with Robb. As the previous quote and others imply, Jon dared to beat Robb sometimes. Besides, we know Jon is arrogant, so no doubt he boasted about it at Winterfell. And Jon was only sixteen. Any wise woman in Cat's place would be afraid that once Jon would try to beat Robb at being Lord of Winterfell. Cat didn't have the luxury of being privy to Jon's thoughts.