Jenna, on Nov 25 2007, 01.14, said:
There's another noble-raised bastard mentioned a few times, though she is yet to appear. Joy Hill, natural daughter of Gerion Lannister, is evidentally being raised in Casterly Rock.
This seems to me to be a presumption you're making? I don't recall any direct reference saying so or even implying it. The fact that Jaime and Tyrion know something of her, or that Tywin was arranging a marriage for her, doesn't preclude the idea that she is being raised at (say) Crakehall or Ashemark.
But Tywin went so far as to try to arrange a marriage for her.
Why would this be unusual? Presumably, had Jon been a girl, Ned would have done the same. It seems perfectly normal to me - even bastard children can be useful in creating alliances. Which is one reason why Cat would rightly be concerned about Jon: if he'd married one of the Mormont daughters, for example, he'd be that much more of a threat.
Obviously, bastard children are less important than legitimate ones in this regard as they can't inherit, but it's the same argument, really, as choosing Gatehouse Ami to be Lancel's wife - the presence of some of the right 'blood', however tainted, could be handy to bolster a claim. Bastard boys are probably considered too much of a double-edged sword to marry off, but bastard daughters married off to loyal vassals? Why not?
He mentioned wedding her to Walder Frey's youngest bastard son, but then Tywin implied and Jaime outright offered, that Joy be wed to Lord Westerling's son (and heir, I think).
Note that neither is exactly a high-profile match, though. One is to another bastard (with family connections), the other is to a minor vassal - and both are already inextricably bound to the Lannisters through the Red Wedding.
I think Cat's fears of Jon rose more from that than concern over some affair Ned might have had when they barely knew one another.
Yet that affair seems to hurt her more than she admits to herself. If you look at her POV chapters, there are clear signs, principally that she fears Ned loves the memory of Jon's mother more than he loves her. Ironically, this may be true. ;)
jennjenn, on Nov 25 2007, 02.06, said:
I don't see Jon being raised at Winterfell as some sort of outrageous option or as something that is out of the ordinary in this society.
Walder Frey keeps his bastards around.
The best excuse that Petyr can think of for keeping Sansa around is to say that she is his bastard.
Robert even discusses bringing one of his bastards (presumably Mya) to court and probably would have if not for Cersei.
Sam assumes that his father will raise a bastard of his even though they do not get along.
First, there's a common mistake people seem to be making here, in confusing raising a bastard in your castle
and raising them in your household
. Even the latter doesn't capture the exceptional nature of what Ned did with Jon: he raised him in his family
, alongside his legitimate children. They played together, ate together, had the same lessons and most of the same privileges.
As I said earlier, Walder draws sharp distinctions between his bastard children and the rest (and you may be sure if he did, so did everyone else at the Twins). Ned did not.
As for Petyr and 'Alayne', note that the cover story includes her being raised apart from him until the age of 13 - he doesn't raise her himself, as Ned did Jon. So not analogous at all, I'm afraid.
Mya: well, consider that even Ned balks at taking Jon to court because of how a bastard would be regarded and treated. Then consider how Robert would have whims and then drop them at the first sign of resistance. I am 99% sure if Cersei had said nothing, he'd still have dropped the idea and 100% sure that if he'd gone ahead it wouldn't have lasted a year and would have been a disaster for all concerned. Anyway, he is not discussing raising a bastard child alongside his 'legitimate' children, but bringing a near-adult one to court. Apples and oranges again.
That leaves Sam's supposed bastard, which brings us back to the 'household/family' distinction. I'm sure Randyll would have seen the child was OK. I'm not sure he would have given him lessons alongside Dickon's kids or sat him at the high table.
The only character who seems to think it even remotely out of the ordinary that Eddard Stark would raise his bastard at Winterfell is Catelyn. Everyone else seems to accept it as normal.
Mostly, Jon has spent his time in the books in a situation where these things are not supposed to matter. However, remember how Noye speaks to him about how privileged and exceptional his upbringing has been.
Few people not part of the WF household speak of Jon at all, and most seem to be ignorant the details of how he was raised, so the absence of remark is not an 'acceptance'.
Some lords keep their bastards near and treat them with varying degrees of kindness, some send them away to be fostered elsewhere, some provide for them financially, and some ignore them. The way that Eddard deals with Jon is probably not the way that Catelyn had been raised to think that bastards should be dealt with, but that doesn't mean that it is completely unreasonable by the standards of Westeros.
But no-one has ever been able to supply an example of it happening elsewhere.
Maester Cressan, on Nov 25 2007, 02.28, said:
Funny.... I just realized that Jon's relationship with his younger siblings is much the same as the Blackfish had with his nieces and nephew that Catylen remembers from her youth...
Of course, Jon seems not to have the same conflict with Robb as between Hoster and the Blackfish.
Yet. And this is an excellent point: Cat has come from a background where she's seen a loyal, loving, legitimate brother fall out spectacularly with his liege lord over a relatively minor matter. Yet people want her to accept Jon's everlasting loyalty to Robb as a given.
Edited by mormont, 26 November 2007 - 09:20 AM.