51 replies to this topic

[James Arryn]

Oh, and by far the most interesting character in the Wars of the Roses was the Kingmaker...there's no real Westerosi equivalent.

Various characters have elements, Renly, Littlefinger, Ned, Tywin, Jon Arryn, Jon Connington, etc.

But it's interesting that arguably the central figure in the Wars of the Roses themselves seems to be the most lacking in a Westerosi equivalent.

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:

You mean Richard III?

No, his father.

As far as Hastings, there's a lot more distinction than his behavior, but yeah, there are also some nice alignments.

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As for the Nevilles, they're quite like the Tyrells (Mace being Warwick and Margaery being Anne/Isabel).

You think Mace is like Warick?

Wow. Not at all, imo. Warick was probably the most all around able guy of the age. Mace...wow.

It's cool how different can look at the same things so differently.


Edit: The Stannis/Richard thing, yeah, that's good too. You can split Richard into Tyrion, Rickon and Stannis and probably have some left over. IMO Warick and to a degree Rivers are the most interesting characters of that time, but after that Edward and Richard were food for a lot of interesting story-making.

Edited by James Arryn, 10 April 2012 - 07:05 PM.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 10 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

Oh, and by far the most interesting character in the Wars of the Roses was the Kingmaker...there's no real Westerosi equivalent.

Tywin Lannister and Mace Tyrell.

James Arryn, on 10 April 2012 - 06:34 PM, said:

No, his father.

Right. Ned is still more like Hastings.

Edited by Apple Martini, 10 April 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Tywin Lannister and Mace Tyrell.

Yeah, I mentioned them, and Renly, Ned, LF, Jon Arryn, etc. Tywin's the closest as an individual, but his personality is exactly the opposite of Warick's...there he's most like Renly. Extremely charismatic and popular, was a guy who was known to be able to even charm his enemies.

Mace I don't see at all, other than being the patriarch of a well connected family.

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Right. Ned is still more like Hastings.

? I think the execution and friendship with Edward/Robert lings up to a degree, and coinciding emnity with the Queen, but that's it. No claim to nobility, considered debauched and frequently shared women with Edward, an able military secondary but never considered anything notable as a commander, sons never became anything of note, etc.

I mean, yeah, there's stuff there, but imo way less than Richard of York.

Considered very honorable but capable of political misjudgment, Warden of a border region, royal lineage, assigned practical rule of the realm without actually being given a crown, later accused of reaching too high/treason, was resented by the Queen, who organized opposition resulting in his death/head on a spike, father of at least 3 boys who become serious players in the Wars, including his eldest who avenged his death/betrayal with a lightning campaign that saw him undefeated in the field and 2 younger sons who spent much of their childhoods in exile due to (sporadic) falls of house power, wife became focal point of family ambitions, advising eldest on campaigns, orchestrating alliances, etc.

It really lines up. Even the ways in which Hastings lines up, imo, other than friendship with King, York lines up more...died because of resistance to his legal power organized by the Queen, not at the hands of his former friend/ally/king's younger brother, etc.

And of course the whole York/Lancaster Stark/Lancaster thing.

Edited by James Arryn, 10 April 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[James Arryn]

Oh, the Stanleys = the Freys.

[Apple Martini]

Mace was the power behind Renly, and is now most of the power behind Tommen. That's what I was going for. Renly is George, Duke of Clarence, pretty clearly.

I know my English history too, thanks.

ETA: And you left out what happened to Hastings.

Edited by Apple Martini, 10 April 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[James Arryn]

Apple Martini, on 10 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

Mace was the power behind Renly, and is now most of the power behind Tommen. That's what I was going for.

But that aspect has been also covered by Tywin and Arryn, without the otherwise lack of similarity.

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I know my English history too, thanks.

Um, ok. Thought we were having a fun discussion about mutual enthusiasms. My apologies if I misunderstood. Had no idea this was getting personal. I'll stop now.

[Apple Martini]

James Arryn, on 10 April 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

But that aspect has been also covered by Tywin and Arryn, without the otherwise lack of similarity.

And it's also covered by Mace, whose daughter also happens to fill the Anne/Isabel Neville role.

[BondJamesBond]

Henry Tudor was considered welsh by some and his victory can be seen by some as a victory of an oppressed group (the Welsh) over the oppressor, London / the English.  What's the analogy here to ASOIAF?

[Apple Martini]

BondJamesBond, on 10 April 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Henry Tudor was considered welsh by some and his victory can be seen by some as a victory of an oppressed group (the Welsh) over the oppressor, London / the English.  What's the analogy here to ASOIAF?

We probably won't know who the Henry VII figure is until all is said and done. Right now it looks like Dany has a lot in common with him (dynastic scion setting up a rival court in exile), but she won't seal the deal until/unless she actually wins.

[SeanF]

Dany doesn't really match Henry VII, IMHO, as she's a messianic figure, rather than just another exiled claimant to the Throne, plotting her way to power.

Stannis resembles the historical Richard III, but there's also a lot of Henry V in his character, too.  Tyrion resembles Shakespeare's Richard III.  There are elements of Elizabeth Woodville in Cersei, but even more does she resemble Edward II's Queen, Isabella.  Robert certainly resembles Edward IV, a talented warrior who loved eating, drinking and wenching, and who deteriorated physically as a result.  Unlike Robert, though, Edward was a conscientious administrator.  Renly certainly resembles Clarence.  Rhaegar, in my view, resembles the young Henry VIII, a bookish, intellectual, composer who loved to compete in tournaments.

[Damar]

I've been reading Trevor Royle's War of the Roses only a bit in, and it struck me how many terms reminded me of similair thingsi n ASIOAF that don't appear in other fantasy works.

Wardens of the East/West = duh
Northern lords and Marcher Lords = duh
King's Langely = King's Landing
Magnates = Great Houses.

It appears to me that Lancasters and Yorks weren't the only thing GRRM took from the War of Roses.