209 replies to this topic

[Ghost Rider]

AngryBiologist, on 22 September 2011 - 07:29 PM, said:

i think benjen is dead.

back in a Jon chapter in aGoT: "...in his mind's eye he saw ben stark dead, his blood red in the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?"

I'm not quite sure who the that "he" refers to; is Jon referring to himself or if he's envisioning his uncle becoming a wight?

but then again, jon's not the greenseer of the group.

He was referring to himself because he dared to imagine the death of his uncle. Shortly before he had the conversation with Tyrion about love/hatred of your family. Jon felt very guilty because he knew that he had been jealous of Robb's position and Tyrion knew it too.

Jon's not the greenseer of the group, but he may get sent some dreams by one.

That being said: I am not sure Benjen Stark is dead, simply because we haven't seen his body. It would have been easy to stumble across his body during the ranging in CoK and a neat way to finish that story line.

He was vanishing at a very convenient time as well: He wasn't around when all the bad stuff happened to the Stark family; he could neither protect Jon nor compete with him for LC (would have been no competition too ). But if you just need him out of the way, why not kill him neatly?

Since we know that there's more to Benjen joining the NW than meets the eye, I guess his story is not yet done. I was theorizing that his reason is connected to the elopement of Lyanna, namely that he supported it. We know from the accounting of the Harrenhal tournament that he was closest among her brothers to her. That impression is backed by new evidence.

For that reason I also believe that he knows about Jon's parentage even if Ned didn't tell him. Less sure about Jon being legit. Therefore he shouldn't be around when a succession war is going on in the realm.

He won't be Coldhands though, I betcha!

[dragginstoned]

Ghost Rider, on 23 September 2011 - 11:06 AM, said:

He was referring to himself because he dared to imagine the death of his uncle. Shortly before he had the conversation with Tyrion about love/hatred of your family. Jon felt very guilty because he knew that he had been jealous of Robb's position and Tyrion knew it too.

Jon's not the greenseer of the group, but he may get sent some dreams by one.

That being said: I am not sure Benjen Stark is dead, simply because we haven't seen his body. It would have been easy to stumble across his body during the ranging in CoK and a neat way to finish that story line.

He was vanishing at a very convenient time as well: He wasn't around when all the bad stuff happened to the Stark family; he could neither protect Jon nor compete with him for LC (would have been no competition too ). But if you just need him out of the way, why not kill him neatly?

Since we know that there's more to Benjen joining the NW than meets the eye, I guess his story is not yet done. I was theorizing that his reason is connected to the elopement of Lyanna, namely that he supported it. We know from the accounting of the Harrenhal tournament that he was closest among her brothers to her. That impression is backed by new evidence.

For that reason I also believe that he knows about Jon's parentage even if Ned didn't tell him. Less sure about Jon being legit. Therefore he shouldn't be around when a succession war is going on in the realm.

this.

Also, it the TV show, as Ned gives Jon the your my blood speach,  the camera pans to Benjen looking back and then riding off.  Totally unessecary cut unless its there to foreshadow.

He'll return for the info dump.

[JonTargaryenSnow]

I hope so, we've named a new Dutch Shepherd after him. And there are too few Starks left.

[Hasfast]

Hmmm, I thought that he couldn't be Coldhands, because Bran is his nephew and would surely have recognized him... but then again, Coldhands always keeps part of his faces covered with a black scarf. That and his blue eyes should be enough to shadow his identity. Also, Summer may not have recognized a dead Benjen... only a Wight. D.R.

[Lost Umber]

It's actually all there in the text. Benjen and Brynden Tully are shacking up in a little hideaway in the Dornish Marches.
You see.. you have to piece together the clues:
- Benjen joined the NW around the same time the Brynden became the Blackfish. "Black" fish..., Benjen in Black... coincidence? I think not.
- We know Brynden wouldn't marry when Hoster told him to, and Benjen never married. Both are lifelong celibate bachelors. Coincidence? I think not.
- Both disappeared during the war of the 5 kings. Coincidence? I think not.

It's so painfully obvious. Oh yeah.. and Jon Snow is their illegimate lovechild.

ok... he's most likely dead. But if he comes back then there better be the mother of all explanations.
There's not even an inkling of a hint that he might be Coldhands. Besides... Coldhands is dead. Probably for good this time.

[Great Dayne]

I thought Benjen was Coldhands too, but if he is Coldhands than the answer is yes, he is dead.  If he is not Coldhands, he still probably is dead.  Don't see why he would not have attempted to contact anyone from the Watch/Wall unless he is a prisoner of the Others.  His dissappearance was one of the reasons that Mormont made led Watch out from the protection of the Wall.

[just an Other]

I think he was the one who left the dragonglass cache and that cracked old horn near the fist of the first men, on account that the cloak had not rotted away which means it must have been left there recently. He found out what Mance was looking for and found it first. If he is still alive he would have to be in contact with one of the players north of the Wall because it seems a very harsh and dangerous environment fo rlong term survival.

[HyacinthGirl]

IMO, he is Coldhands. He kind of has to be Coldhands. Coldhands will not turn out to be some other random missing ranger. It's not "too obvious for GRRM" because there are still quite a few gaps that need to be filled, i.e. why bran didn't recognise him. But yeah. I really, really think he's Coldhands.

[tirhaka]

i think the  benjen missing thing has gone wayyyyy too long actually. H needs to be found early in the next book...

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Well, he's missing and that's all we know so far. He could be dead or he could be alive, and so long as there are no new information, he's kinda both...

Assuming that he doesn't have a prophetic masterplan/secret mission related to f.e. the whole Azor Asshai mystery or the Children of the Forest, like now Bran and the Reeds do have, he should have tried to contact his own people. As he didn't do that (and the Wall should be quite easy to reach), it is implied that he has been stopped by something from doing that. What problems could he have had?
a) He died like the other's in his party and became a wight, he's now somewhere North of the Wall. Alternatively, he really is dead and was burnt...
he survived the attack of the wights/others that killed his scouting party, but was later captured by Wildlings, this group needs to have been relatively small, or otherwise Mance should have had knowlede of Benjen Stark... He now could be at Hardhome f.e.,
c) he was saved from the wight/other attack by a "supernatural" entity like Coldhands or the Children of the Forest. But that leads us back to the mystical part and the question of if there's a master plan for a "Bigger fight" which he had to follow on his own secret special mission.
In this case, all bets are off where he is, he could have gone more North on his own to the land of always winter, he could have gone South to Kings Landing or East to Braavos. It really is impossible to tell, right?

In the end, Benjen Stark is either one of those characters introduced by GRRM to increase the realism/size of the world of the series. The family of the Starks needed to have some more members or otherwise it'd been to small in comparison to other Great Families, but he needed to be out of the way for Jon to be able to grow for himself/alone. Or he's a huge Chekov's Gun from the time when the Books were only 3 in number: Introduced in first, missing for the middle part of the series, coming back in the end for finale.

[Hear Us Roar]

i got the feeling coldhands has been dead for a long time

[Lost Umber]

deleted. can't get spoiler tags to work

Edited by Lost Targ, 09 December 2011 - 07:38 AM.

[coalstrawbean]

dragginstoned, on 23 September 2011 - 11:50 AM, said:

this.

Also, it the TV show, as Ned gives Jon the your my blood speach,  the camera pans to Benjen looking back and then riding off.  Totally unessecary cut unless its there to foreshadow.

He'll return for the info dump.

That's interesting, for a long time I thought Howland Reed would be the one to reveal it to Jon. Could be the showrunners don't plan on including him. Or maybe Benjen is the one who will tell him in the books too. Either way I think we haven't seen the last of Ben. I remember reading a GRRM quote that Benjen's fate would be revealed in the next book, though I don't remember where I read it. Could have been a misquote but I get the feeling that Winds of Winter will push the northern storyling forward so it would make sense for him to appear. I've also always been under the impression that Howland would appear in Winds as well. Oh, and I'm also dying to know if Ben left the parcel with the horn and obsidian arrow heads, and why.

Edited by coalstrawbean, 05 January 2012 - 10:48 PM.

[jarl the climber]

my theory is that Benjen fled East from Wilding or the others.Took a raft ended up on Skagoos maybe was held captive,fell in love with a woman, or the others are invading Skagoos which is north of the wall and he is helping them fight.Might come back in the story when Davos goes to Skagoos.There was a chapter ASOS where the witch at high hearth talks about a wolf crying alone in the wilderness and nobody hears HIM.I believe Osha died leaving Rickon on his own.Wex probaly did not follow them all the way to Skagoos by staying downwind,he was caught,spotted and sent back to get help.I can't see Rickon surviving on his own even with Shaggy maybe Benjen found him.probaly wishful thinking,I think coldhands is way to old to be Benjen.

[Ser Proteus of Muir]

Kinda.

I think the greensingers rescued him from the Others before he go full-wight.

Edit: He's totally ColdHands.

Edited by Ser Proteus of Muir, 06 January 2012 - 03:48 AM.

[chrisdaw]

If Benjen were Codlhands there's no literary reasoning for it not to have been revealed in Bran's chapters, as it wasn't I can only assume he is not.

[Arkash]

I'd love if we were to see him again in Davos chapters in TWOW, like if he had taken care of Osha and Rickon on Skagos.

[Dementia]

I think Benjen is Coldhands.  The minute Coldhands rode up on his moose (elk?) I thought it was Benjen.

Why doesn't Bran recognize his uncle?

• Well, first off he prob. hasn't really SEEN his uncle all that often.  Benjen's visit to Winterfell when the king was there might have been his first visit since Bran was born.  I really can't see the NW letting their first Ranger take vacation just because his family lives close.
  
• Coldhands kept well away from the group and kept himself covered.
  
• Bran is freezing, starving and worried for his friends.  He isn't looking for his uncle, so why would it occur to him that this guy is his dead uncle.

As for no literary reason not to expose him, I also see no literary reason *to* expose him.  The humans are freezing, starving and being hunted...not really the best time for a family reunion.

"Uncle Benjen," Bran squeaks with startled surprise.  Coldhands nods his head and motions the group to keep moving.

Not too interesting that.

Edited by Dementia, 06 January 2012 - 10:09 AM.

[Scylla]

I'm not sure whether Benjen is alive or dead... but I think he is alive.

I also think that there is an important link that has not yet been explored between the men of the Night's Watch who swear their oath's to the old God's of the North at the weir trees as opposed to those who swear them to the Seven.

The Starks are Kings of the North, they have generations of blood back to the First Men and have never lost the old religion.  Their very words are 'Winter is coming' so the very existence of the Starks is bound up in 'Winter'. There will be some link to that and the Others.

I'm not sure how it will work but I'm sure it is there and I think that is why the birds came to save Sam and Gilly because Sam swore his oath before the tree.

Benjen is a Stark, he will have sworn his Oath before the weirwood beyond the Wall.  I think there is some protection and a hell of a lot of (as yet unrevealed) meaning in that.

I think that will have kept him 'alive'.

I too thought initially he may have been Coldhands but I'm not 100% sure.

Edited by Scylla, 06 January 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[alienarea]

He killed his fellow rangers, dumped his cloak with the dragonglass, grew a beard and went to Essos.