The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)

[Shewoman]

And the truth is, as we could all probably testify, that we are drawn to some people and not to others for reasons that we ourselves don't fully understand--reasons that we might actually argue against if one of our friends was making the same decision.

While I don't have the impression that Starks and Targaryens had a negative relationship before Harrenhal, I'm finding it hard not to think of Rhaegar and Lyanna as Romeo and Juliet. The plot is quite different; I think it's Lyanna's age that's doing it. Romeo and Juliet had stupid, well-meaning adults abetting them (her nurse and the priest); I wonder if there was any such role in R+L.

[The Wolf Maid]

Scholtzma, I still don't see any evidence that most women in Westeros wanted to bear as many trueborn children as they could. Lysa values the one child she has to an abnormal degree, but I don't believe we ever hear her say she wants more.

Hm. IIRC, we do, when she and Petyr got married, that she wanted more children.

I also agree that while Lyanna disapproved of Robert's philandering, I don't think she refused his hand (after all, she stayed engaged to him until her 'abduction').

[Shewoman]

Lysa was in love with Petyr, which is why she wanted his children. She doesn't seem to feel a duty to have them--nor does she suggest that she's willing to risk her health to do so.

[Gold Storm]

In the ASOIAF time line, one of the wife's main jobs in marriage was to produce kids. It was dangerous yes, but it was safer for high born women than it was for the commoners. Elia had to have kids too keep the royal line strong and growing.

[Prince of the North]

Hm. IIRC, we do, when she and Petyr got married, that she wanted more children.

I also agree that while Lyanna disapproved of Robert's philandering, I don't think she refused his hand (after all, she stayed engaged to him until her 'abduction').

Um, I could be wrong but I would think that there's no way on the Gods' green earth that Lyanna could get away with refusing Robert's hand. That wouldn't even be an option, hence, the running away IIRC, Lyanna wasn't even consulted about being betrothed to Robert. That had to rankle someone as independent and full of "wild wolf's blood" as she.

[Shewoman]

Gold Storm--do you have a text from the books to support the idea that women were expected to bear children as long as they could? If Elia literally couldn't do that anymore, she simply couldn't.

[Kouran]

You know I had always concidered that Elia knew of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I just cant see any way that she couldnt know about it. Yet from the limited perspectives we have been given to date there is no way to say one way or the other that Elia was either ok or very upset about it. What we do know about the war and Rhaegar is seen from Jaime's perspective in the lead up to the battle of the trident, in which nothing of a personal nature is noted.

It has been my belief that Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna when he realized she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and had fought in the tourney to avenge Howland Reed. Now from my perspective Rhaegar sees a young maid who has the strength of character and will to take up arms and defend the helpless Howland Reed and make the squires apologize and falls in love with her. From the limited information we have about the tourney we also know that Lyanna was at least smitten with him, the whole crying as he played bit an all.

Therefore, in my view, Rhaegar sees Lyanna as a woman with strength and character, unlike his pale weak bride. Lyanna sees Rhaegar as everything that Robert isnt, cultured articulate and a good man. Could she not have fallen in love with him? Can you not see Rhaegar offering her to be his second wife, afterall Aegon the conquerer had two wives. Who could see the situation spiraling so out of control? We might even surmise from Rhaegar's comments about the king that he didnt even wish to step in about the kings madness.

I think that in some way she fled the north to join with Rhaegar and when the situation went totally pear shaped it was far to late to simply say, "wait I am in love with him and married him and after all he will be king so dont eveyone fly off the handle." From the point in which Aerys kills the Starks and calls for Robert and Ned's head the die was cast, the king had afterall broken the feudal contract.

[Shewoman]

Since Rhaegar passed by Elia in order to give the Crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna, Elia had to have a pretty good idea of what was going on. If she was too ill to have more children, she might not have minded much.

If Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree--which is possible but not proven yet--Rhaegar may have been attracted to her strength and her sense of justice.

I think anyone with any sense could have seen the situation spiraling out of control. Elia was a princess of Dorne. Her children were also Dornish; Dorne could be expected not to react well to Rhaegar having an additional wife and possibly additional children. Furthermore, Lyanna was engaged to the Head of House Baratheon, a hot-headed man who could be depended on to resent Rhaegar's attention to his fiancee.

[sholtzma]

Since Rhaegar passed by Elia in order to give the Crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna, Elia had to have a pretty good idea of what was going on. If she was too ill to have more children, she might not have minded much.

If Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree--which is possible but not proven yet--Rhaegar may have been attracted to her strength and her sense of justice.

I think anyone with any sense could have seen the situation spiraling out of control. Elia was a princess of Dorne. Her children were also Dornish; Dorne could be expected not to react well to Rhaegar having an additional wife and possibly additional children. Furthermore, Lyanna was engaged to the Head of House Baratheon, a hot-headed man who could be depended on to resent Rhaegar's attention to his fiancee.

There is NO evidence that Elia saw what was coming in the public display that Rhaegar made of the queen of love and beauty business or that she approved/disapproved. Even if he wanted Lyanna, needed a third head, or fulfilled a prophesy, he could have done it in secret. He could have done it without Robert around. He could have done it in good taste, and done it privately.

FWIW, I believe that there is a possibility that Elia knew IF it was written down in prophesy, because if Rhaegar is as great as everyone says he is, then he would at least want to explain why he needs to do something like this in front of Lyanna's betrothed, family, and all who were present at the tourney. I can just picture Elia saying "well yes, Rhaegar, I'm just fine with that...but what of Robert? What of tearing the realm to pieces? Surely this will mean war. Sure, I'm as interested in Lyanna as you are, but please just bring her into our tent and propose to her, and save yourself some grief." Sheesh.

Now back to the prophesy bit. I believe this is the whole root of the problem. My crackpot theory is that a similar situation will happen in these books that the prophesy is really referring to, and that when Rhaegar read the prophesy, he thought he had to do it, regardless of the consequences, in order to save the realm from the darkness that never ends, the Others, etc. Since he is dutiful and single-minded in everything he does, he thinks this will be a really bad thing, but hey, if it's written down, he's got to do it. It's the whole self-fulfilling prophesy dilemma.

Dorne is the most LIBERAL of the Westerosi kingdoms - they would be the last region to be upset over Rhaegar taking a second wife or paramour. Anyway, who's going to raise a stink over a Targaryen taking a second wife? They were widely known to have different customs and traditions than the rest of Westeros. The Dornish were upset that the children and Elia were butchered and no justice or vengeance ever came of it, not that Rhaegar was interested in another woman. The exception to this is that Lyanna was betrothed at the time; this was probably not acceptable behavior.

But back to the point of the thread - R+L=J, it would indeed be a great complement to have the Dragonprince crown you the queen of love and beauty over his own wife. Lyanna could have been either flattered into love, or really loved him for all the reasons every other woman seemed to love him, or simply didn't want to marry Robert. One important thing to note is that in some intentional or unintentional way, Jon was conceived, born, and perhaps rescued by some persons, and he seems to be important to the story at a time when the realm will be in deep trouble with the Others. So the misinterpretation/actions of Rhaegar may have fulfilled some purpose, it may just not be the purpose Rhaegar thought at the time.

[telobsidion]

This is a bit to the side, and it may have been mentioned, but I've heard people questioning why three of the Kingsguard were better served being at the Tower of Joy rather than at King's Landing protecting the king (Aerys) and his heir (Aegon). What if Rhaegar had writ up something proclaiming Jon as his heir? After all, Aegon was Elia's child, and that was a marriage of state, and perhaps he feared Aegon would be of poor health like his mother. Jon would have been Lyanna's, who it seems Rhaegar loved, and she seems to have been strong (Knight of the Laughing Tree) and willful.

[Guest Other-in-law]

This is a bit to the side, and it may have been mentioned, but I've heard people questioning why three of the Kingsguard were better served being at the Tower of Joy rather than at King's Landing protecting the king (Aerys) and his heir (Aegon).

Yes, that's been addressed many times. Some of us see it as evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, as that would make Lyanna and their child members of the royal family and consequently under the KG's protection mandate in a way that mere mistresses and bastards are not. In particular, it explains why they would have stayed there after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead (those two had KG of their own protecting them) instead of hustling off to King Viserys. A son of Rhaegar would come ahead of Viserys in the succession, and be the legal king at that point.

Wrt Martell indignation, I think it's worth noting that Rhaegar would have certainly gotten to know his wife's family, if only at the wedding, but probably more than that. Elia would have spoken of them, too. And phlegmatic Doran Martell is probably the last great lord in the seven kingdoms whose wroth I would fear. It would be a reasonable expectation that he would swallow any anger, and do nothing like he always seems to, over far greater insults than that one.

[automne]

Some of us see it as evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, as that would make Lyanna and their child members of the royal family and consequently under the KG's protection mandate in a way that mere mistresses and bastards are not. In particular, it explains why they would have stayed there after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead (those two had KG of their own protecting them) instead of hustling off to King Viserys. A son of Rhaegar would come ahead of Viserys in the succession, and be the legal king at that point.

Even thought I agree this is the most plausible reason the KG were still at the Tower of Joy I keep thinking there must be something else.

Rhaegar and Lyanna went missing for months. What was Rhaegar doing at the TOJ for months? Making love to Lyanna and playing his harp? That would be totally irresponsible, I mean he wasn't a teenager who ran away with his first love. He was the heir to the throne plus a husband and a father. That's why I think there was something else at the TOJ, something extremely important in Rhaegar's eyes, something which required his presence and the protection of 3 of the best KG.

[Black Wizard]

Aren't all the Targaryen's supposed to have purple eyes? Does Jon not have Grey eyes like Eddard?

[Jon Targaryen]

Jon is supposedly half-Targareyn, like Baleor Breakspear who had brown eyes.

[Black Wizard]

Hmmm. I guess that the Targaryen's always had purple eyes due to the constant inbreeding then. Does Dany have purple eyes though? She's also half-Targaryen.

[SkyPirate]

Hmmm. I guess that the Targaryen's always had purple eyes due to the constant inbreeding then. Does Dany have purple eyes though? She's also half-Targaryen.

She has purple eyes and she's full Targaryen because her parents are brother and sister.

[Black Wizard]

Right you are. I'm getting myself confused with the Targaryen family tree.

[nateman29]

I'm relatively new to the board, and I apologize if this point has already been made.

Most of us seem to accept as fact that, while Rhaegar intitially believed that he was the Prince who was Promised, he came to believe instead that he was to be the father of the Prince.

We also know that he came to believe that the dragon needed three heads which led him to believe that he would need to sire three children, and two of the necessary three, Rhaenys and Aegon, were delivered to him via his marriage to Princess Elia of Dorne.

We know that many characters in the books have agreed that Elia was never a strong healthy woman and the rigors of childbirth must have been taxing on a woman with such a weak constitution. It certainly seems plausible that Rhaegar himself would have also recognized this.

The title of the series is 'a song of ice and fire' and only once has the phrase been mentioned...in Dany's vision of Rhaegar and Elia as she delivers to Rhaegar his newborn son who he promptly names Aegon and then proceeds to say that 'his is the song of ice and fire.' But I feel Rhaegar was mistaken when he makes this statement, although I also believes that he comes to recognize his error and attempts to correct it.

I think Rhaegar loved Elia regardless of the fact that theirs was an arranged marriage, but he also recognizes that she is took weak to bear the third head of the dragon. So he comes to the conclusion that he must find another wife to complete the prophecy. And since we know that polygamy was not unknown to the Targaryens and since Rhaegar was by all accounts (expect Robert's) a man of extreme honor, he set out to woo and wed a new wife.

But not just any wife, I think Rhaegar knew that is HAD to be Lyanna Stark.

Who are the Starks? What qualities and traits characterize their family and their House? They are loyal, indomitable, stalwart, solid, unyielding. They are extremely honorable. Eddard is often described as being as cold as the North. They come from the North near the Wall....a wall made up of ice. Their standard is the direwolf, a beast of cold climes. Their seat is called Winterfell. Their words are 'winter is coming.' Who are the Starks I ask? The Starks are ICE.

Who are the Targaryens? What qualities and traits characterize their House and family? They are strong-willed, passionate, powerful. They are conquerors. King Jaehaerys once said that when a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin between greatness and madness. Aerys once said that fire is champion of House Targaryen. Their standard is the dragon referred to as 'fire made flesh.' Their seat is Dragonstone, built next to a volcano. Their words are 'fire and blood.' Who are the Targaryens I ask? The Targaryens are FIRE.

What is the song of ice and fire? It the harmony created by the union of those most powerful of elements. A harmony in the shape of an infant boy created by the love of Lyanna and Rhaegar on whose shoulders lay all the hopes of Westeros.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I pretty much agree with all that, but my take on this:

What is the song of ice and fire? It the harmony created by the union of those most powerful of elements. A harmony in the shape of an infant boy created by the love of Lyanna and Rhaegar on whose shoulders lay all the hopes of Westeros.

is more of a suspicion that word "song" here refers to magical spells rather than mundane singing. The wizards of old Valyria were called "spellsingers" and one of the relatively few examples of magic being worked on screen (by Mirri Maz Duur) explicitly involved singing. In this case, the greatest song of all would be that which resolves or tames the eternal conflict between ice and fire, saves humanity from the magical others and possibly also from their counterpart demons of fire or shadow at the opposite side of the world.

Or perhaps it's a combination of multiple meanings including song as an epic tale or saga.

[Shewoman]

Scholtzma said: There is NO evidence that Elia saw what was coming in the public display that Rhaegar made of the queen of love and beauty business or that she approved/disapproved. Even if he wanted Lyanna, needed a third head, or fulfilled a prophesy, he could have done it in secret. He could have done it without Robert around. He could have done it in good taste, and done it privately.

Me: Ned remembers the moment that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the Crown of Love and Beauty as "The moment when all smiles died." (Amerian paperback GoT, p. 630-1). Not "the moment all smiles except Elia's died." And I'm really not sure what to do with your suggestion that Elia would say she was as interested in Lyanna as Rhaegar was.

Scholtzma said: FWIW, I believe that there is a possibility that Elia knew IF it was written down in prophesy, because if Rhaegar is as great as everyone says he is, then he would at least want to explain why he needs to do something like this in front of Lyanna's betrothed, family, and all who were present at the tourney. I can just picture Elia saying "well yes, Rhaegar, I'm just fine with that...but what of Robert? What of tearing the realm to pieces? Surely this will mean war. Sure, I'm as interested in Lyanna as you are, but please just bring her into our tent and propose to her, and save yourself some grief." Sheesh.

Me: If the end result of a private proposal from Rhaegar to Lyanna was that she abandoned her engagement and ran away with Rhaegar, I don't think that situation would have worked out any better than the one that actually occurred did.

Dorne is liberal sexually, but they get enraged when they feel that their rights are being ignored. Witness the reaction in Feast for Crows to the death of Oberyn, Elia's brother (not to mention their longstanding anger over the murders of Elia and her children--something her brother Doran refers to in the early chapters of FFC). Targaryen polygamy is generations in the past at this point, and Rhaegar's taking another wife wasn't evidence of being a swinger; it was devaluing and replacing a Dornish princess.

Telobsidian: If R+L=J and Jon was born shortly before Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy in a room smelling of blood and roses, Rhaegar died at the Trident several months before that. I doubt that he would have named as his heir a child that was months from birth, especially since he already had a son whose legitimacy was unquestioned. Setting aside a child of Elia's for one of Lyanna's would, I think, guarantee a Dornish uprising. Since Rhaegar does not seem to have left any evidence of having married Lyanna, if he did marry her, Jon would be considered a bastard and therefore not eligible to inherit unless a king legitimized him, and it's hard to imagine Aerys doing that even if he had survived. Rhaegar doesn't seem to have taken the possibility of his own death seriously--which could be a point in favor of Scholtzma's suggestion above that Rhaegar thought he'd found a prophecy that referred to him when in fact it was for someone else.

Automne, we don't know when Rhaegar and Elia got to the Tower of Joy, but clearly Rhaegar didn't stay there all the time. He went to King's Landing and then to the Trident, where he was killed by Robert's warhammer, several months before the end of the war.

Nateman 29 said, "Most of us seem to accept as fact that, while Rhaegar intitially believed that he was the Prince who was Promised, he came to believe instead that he was to be the father of the Prince." That's the first time I've seen that theory advanced. What points to it in the books? I do agree that Elia's bad health might have been a factor in Rhaegar's choosing another woman.