Last Argument of Kings SPOILER THREAD

[Werthead]

To get the message across:

[b]This novel is more awesome than most. Be careful before spoilerising yourself. It is worth reading unaware of what is about to happen.[/b]







[b]Seriously, think twice before reading this thread if you haven't read the book.[/b]

[Werthead]

Let's do this!

[size=4][b][u]SPOILERS FOLLOW FROM THIS POINT ONWARDS[/u]
[/b][/size]

I was at a loss as I was reading the book what blew me away the most. The battle on the mountainside was very Helm's Deep, but quite cool. Of course, it was a very, very mild warm-up for the assault on Adua, which immediately replaced the Siege of Capustan in [i]Memories of Ice[/i] as my favourite battle sequence in epic fantasy this century, and overall was proably only outshone by the Battle of the Blackwater in [i]Clash of Kings[/i] and by Pelennor Fields in [i]Lord of the Rings[/i] (and [i]maybe[/i] the battles of the North More and Armengar in Paul Kearney's [b]Monarchies of God[/b] series as well). By the end of the battle I felt I'd waded through tides of waist-high blood. There was some serious carnage going on there.

As great as all this ultraviolence was, it was the character arcs that surprise me most. I was surprised that Jezal, Glokta and Logen all survived to the end of the book. I was [i]really[/i] surprised that West died. That reached almost GRRM levels of harshness. Jezal becoming king I think most people called; him being a fake puppet of Bezal's was fantastic, though. Glokta ending up as the head of the Inquisition and married to Ardee was also expected. Him having the happiest ending out of everyone was twistedly appropriate. And Logen ending exactly where he came into the story at the start of [i]The Blade Itself[/i] was awesome.

I think the masterstroke of the book was Bayaz, though. Has anyone taken the crotchetly-but-well-meaning-mentor-with-a-heart-of-gold character before and turned him into a twisted, selfish arsehole? Okay, Grumpos in [i]Anachronox[/i] aside? Thought not. By the end of the book you wanted to pummell Bayaz in the face with a meat tenderiser, but at the same time him breaking Jezal's will to live just as Jezal finally seemed to be reaching some kind of honourable peace with himself was terrific.

The most unsatisfying element, to me, was that Ferro just walked off at the end. I suspect Joe has an idea for a whole sequel series in the back of his mind to call upon [s]when his experimental avant-garde novel about angst-ridden elves living in New York fails[/s] at some unspecified point in the future (given Bayaz's whole, "Yeah biatch, I'll be back in a few years so watch out!" spiel). However, I wouldn't be surprised to see a side-story exploring Ferro's adventures in the meantime. More than anyone else, she seemed to have a lot of unresolved shit to still deal with.

[Slick Mongoose]

[quote]By the end of the book you wanted to pummell Bayaz in the face with a meat tenderiser, but at the same time him breaking Jezal's will to live just as Jezal finally seemed to be reaching some kind of honourable peace with himself was terrific.[/quote]

Yes. Jezal had it in him to be a very good king, but just wasn't allowed. The saddest part, though, was his wife. :(

I thought that one of Glokta's assistants would probably have been betraying him, but both? :lol:

[quote]I wouldn't be surprised to see a side-story exploring Ferro's adventures in the meantime. More than anyone else, she seemed to have a lot of unresolved shit to still deal with.[/quote]

The problem with that is that she's too 1-dimensional to work without other great characters to bounce her off. I don't think you could base a sequel on her.

[Sheep the Evicted]

I just finished it. Your absolutely right ofcourse its incredible.

SPOILERS FOLLOW

I think I saw about half of the twists coming. Tolmei and Rews though? Never. Biggest surprise though was just how bad Logen and Bayaz where, and I mean that half in the slangish “good” way and half literally. Shivers’ lines about his brothers death gave me chills, I had to read them twice.

After what happened to Thunderhead I just couldn’t turn past page 421 for like five minutes. I was sure the same would happen to Dogman.

On that note its funny how Joe wrote this book in an effort to show that there was no such think as good guys or bad guys, and before this I agreed with him. Now though I have changed my mind; Bayaz and Logen are evil. I feel like Achamain after he realised just how terrible Kellhus was; Joe that evil bastard has manipulated me over the course of two books into idolising the Bloody Nine only to rip the cowl from my eyes now. I spent half the book really wanting them to die but yet I was cheering when Logen made it out of the window.

Still want Bayaz to die. Really want him to die. But there is no one powerful enough to do it I think. And that’s probably one of the morals of LAoK; just be the top dog and it won’t even matter just how evil you are.

Little side thing.

Who else in fiction do you think can kill Bayaz ? I keep coming to Rand Al’Thor but I’m no sure. The guy is ridiculously over-powered.

[Slick Mongoose]

[quote]Who else in fiction do you think can kill Bayaz ? I keep coming to Rand Al’Thor but I’m no sure. The guy is ridiculously over-powered.[/quote]

Not really. Every time he uses magic it costs him, and once in book 2 he lost control. He can't take out armies, or do much if taken by surprise. It's only the seed that made him uber, without it the eaters would have had him for breakfast. And he can't use that very often, i'm sure. Without the seed i'd put him at a similar lever to a mid-level channeler from WoT, or a Scarlet Schoolman.

[quote]Biggest surprise though was just how bad Logen and Bayaz were[/quote]

I kind of agree. I didn't expect Bayaz to be good, but I didn't expect him to be quite that controlling. As for Logen, there always had to be a reason why almost everyone in the north hated and feared him. I thought he'd do a better job of redeeming himself, though. The bloody-nine sequences were horrifically brilliant.

[quote]I think I saw about half of the twists coming. Tolmei and Rews though? Never.[/quote]

I don't think it was really possible to get the Tolomei twist, and funnily enough it was the only part of the book that I didn't really like. The only purpose it served was to prove how much of a bastard Bayaz was, but we saw that well enough anyway.

Rews, though? That was brilliant. I'm kicking myself.

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1275206' date='Mar 16 2008, 21.00']Not really. Every time he uses magic it costs him, and once in book 2 he lost control. He can't take out armies, or do much if taken by surprise. It's only the seed that made him uber, without it the eaters would have had him for breakfast. And he can't use that very often, i'm sure. Without the seed i'd put him at a similar lever to a mid-level channeler from WoT, or a Scarlet Schoolman.[/quote]

Nahh from the way he dealt with Tomei it seems like he has reflexes similiar to the eaters. Even Ferro couldn't see it. And maybe its premature but he could feel Jezal watching him. I think its very hard to take him by suprise.


[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1275206' date='Mar 16 2008, 21.00']I kind of agree. I didn't expect Bayaz to be good, but I didn't expect him to be quite that controlling. As for Logen, there always had to be a reason why almost everyone in the north hated and feared him. I thought he'd do a better job of redeaming himself, though. The bloody-nine sequences were horrifically brilliant.[/quote]

I knew Logen did bad things in the past, but i thought he was well on his way to redeeming himself; that the only reason Bethod wanted him dead was because Logen had finally gotten tired of Bethods evil ways. What an idiot i was; even Dogman saw Logen for the hypocrite he was. Red Hat said it best. Evil!

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1275206' date='Mar 16 2008, 21.00']I don't think it was really possible to get the Tolomei twist, and funnily enough it was the only part of the book that I didn't really like. The only purpose it served was to prove how much of a bastard Bayaz was, but we saw that well enough anyway.[/quote]

That whole scene displayed Bayaz for what he truly was. The fact that he had thrown her just to appear noble the fact that he buried her and the fact that he sacrificed Yulwei. Your right though, why on earth would she hide herself for ten thousand years or however long it has been.

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1275206' date='Mar 16 2008, 21.00']Rews, though? That was brilliant. I'm kicking myself.[/quote]

Amen.

[Maltaran]

[quote name='Slick Mongoose' post='1275187' date='Mar 16 2008, 20.39']I thought that one of Glokta's assistants would probably have been betraying him, but both? :lol:[/quote]

I never trusted Severard, but I was surprised at Frost's betrayal.

The radiation sickness from the Seed was a nice touch, I thought. This is the price of messing with the other side.

I was a little surprised to learn that Yoru Sulfur was an Eater, after Bayaz's rants about them in the first two books. Turns out Bayaz is even more of a power-hungry arsehole than I thought. Also, Tolomei - we knew there was something up with Quai, but that came completely out of left field.

[Larry.]

I'm re-reading it after finishing a quick read-through almost a month ago, but I just don't see why some are so enthusiastic about the battles or the "surprises." Considering the number of times that the rooftop drop was brought up and how much "Quai" kept hinting at things about Bayaz's background, it seemed a little too repetitive for me after a while. But I'll try not to comment too much upon this now, as I have a review to finish writing later this week.

[The Wolf Maid]

Ha. I knew Bayard was fucking bad to the bone.

Now I'm absolutely[i] rabid [/i]about reading the book. I can only pray this comes over here fast.

[MinDonner]

West's death had me feeling miserable for [i]days[/i]. That was a real shocker. But the Logen and Bayaz arcs were the best thing about the whole series. Bayaz particularly - this really was about the bad guy winning, a totally callous immortal with nothing but scorn for the humans he's manipulating.

[Padreic]

Bayaz evil? Nah. Not any more evil then most characters, at least. He had an overly powerful enemy who was without a doubt more evil than himself, and he did what he had to do. So he craved for power and glory on the way? Well, who doesn't. I think by using terms as 'evil', you are missing the point of the books. The characters are, mostly, humans with a few noble goals, a few not so noble goals and the choice between using 'evil' means or losing against those who do. Bayaz, imho, is the prototyp of a machiavellian leader.

[Werthead]

Excellent point, although I kept reading 'evil goals' as 'evil goats' and assumed we were reading some whole other fantasy series ;)

[Poobah]

Did West die? I thought he was just dying with a teeny tiny chance for survival, allowing me to cling on to a shred of hope.

And yes, I'd love for Bayaz to live out the rest of his miserable life in Glokta's care. I do though love the revelation of his character accross the books from percieved classic wizard to guy I'd be happy to take a sledge to his kneecaps.

-Poobs

[Lord Baelish]

What a fantastic book. I loved the first two, but the third one ... Wow. Puts Abercrombie in a whole new league, IMO. Everything about it was just brilliant. I loved the battle scenes, especially the siege of Adua. And the constant twists and turns with all the characters had my head spinning.

I could see Jezal's redemption coming a mile off, but I really didn't think he would live through it all. I expected a noble sacrifice from him. But I guess Bayaz wouldn't have allowed that to happen. The ending to his story arc was very fitting.

Logen ... I don't know what to say. I cheered him through two and a half books, but then he went and killed the Thunderhead! I couldn't forgive him for that, even though I was still kind of cheering him on. Dogman turning on him really surprised me, though I guess it shouldn't have. He truly is a grey character. He wants to improve himself and do good, but he doesn't know how and his past always catches up with him. I still want to know what exactly happens when he turns into the Bloody-Nine. Is it just an extreme form of bloodlust? Ending how he started made me laugh, and I was cheering on Black Dow during their fight.

Glokta got the girl and the happiest ending of all, which I was glad about. He's another truly fascinating character. He undoubtedly does evil acts (threatening the queen's "friend" with gang rape, for example), yet I couldn't help willing him on. After all he'd been through, he deserved some happiness. I'm still annoyed at Frost's betrayal though. I hoped he would be the loyal one.

Ferro is still the only character I couldn't really warm to. There was just nothing interesting about her, and I felt she was the only one that didn't really change much through the course of the books. Her ending was a damp squib like most of the rest of her arc. I also don't think a sequel based on her would work, not unless he surrounded her with more brilliant characters.

And poor old West, to finish. :( Why did that have to happen? Only one death upset me more - Harding Grim. I wanted those two to live the most out of all the characters. The only other thing that disappointed me was Bayaz being behind Valint and Balk. I was hoping for a different twist there, but I guess Bayaz was the only realistic candidate. I really, really wanted Jezal to tear him a new arsehole at the end. I hope if we do meet these characters again that Jezal and Glokta team up to get Bayaz out of the Union for good.

[Lupigis]

Lots to say but not much time to say it in. I liked it a lot - started reading at 21.00 Friday evening when the kids were in bed and finished it at 4.00 Saturday morning - but it was grim! Logen killing Tul Duru Thunderhead was one of the most shocking scenes I have read. I also had to put the book down for a minute after that. In general, the whole execution of Logen going back north and facing his past, and the readers gradually learning more about it was brilliant.

I don't think anyone got a happy ending in this book. Even though some survived and Glotka got the girl, there was no fucking [i]deliverance[/i] for anyone. Logen ended up back where he started, Jezal is a reluctant king, living in secret fear of Bayaz and Glotka is still causing pain on a daily basis. That's harsh!

One major loose end was left over, IMO. Why and how did Bethod team up with Caurib and the Shanka?

Oh, and one more thing! Recently, Joe made a [url="http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2008/03/misogynist-moi.html"]post on his blog[/url] about a reviewer who called Before they are Hanged "misogynist". I think that's a big exaggeration, but I couldnt help thinking about that review when Glotka forced Terez to become a "semen receptacle" and Ardee declared that she wanted someone to need her as she clened Glotka from his own shit.

A minor complaint about one of the most memorable fantasy novels I have ever read.

[Poobah]

Arg, Logen. I love Logen Ninefingers, I really do. It just sucks to be him when the Bloody Nine comes to the surface (it also sucks to be near him when this happens ;P).

I think Jezel's assessment of Logen as the best guy he knows is right. He never met the Bloody Nine though. If only Logen grew fur and turned into a doggie every time he became 'blessed by the moon' then people wouldn't have such a problem with him, pitty he's stuck in the same skin and noone can see his transformation from great all around guy to utter lunatic psychopath but us. His ending was supremely ironic.

I'm living in the hope that after uber-ferro has taken Khalul and the gurkish out she'll come back for Bayaz.

I know what you mean about the Mysogyny to a certain extent, but if you're trying to write an authentic medieval setting you just can't have it all egalitarian and post-feminism. I've nothing against strong female characters, not in the slightest, but I think that given Abercrombie's world and story the fact that we didn't see any perfect heroines wasn't surprising. But then again we didn't see any perfect heroes either. Gorst (a favourite of mine, I was really hoping we'd see him again) is the closest we get to a really good character, every other strong male lead has lashings of failings to go with it - Logen has an absolute psychopath waiting to come out, West has anger management issues, Glokta is a torturer, Bayaz is a self-important prideful meglomaniac without a shred of empathy.

Rews! I didn't see that one comming.

In Before They Were Hanged, I found Auclous? (the city Glustrod destroyed with the Seed, the presise spelling of which escapes me right now) to be strongly remeniscent of Moria, which put me off for a moment or two, but otherwise absolutely no complaints here.

-Poobs

[Lupigis]

[quote name='Poobah' post='1276992' date='Mar 18 2008, 00.42']In Before They Were Hanged, I found Auclous? (the city Glustrod destroyed with the Seed, the presise spelling of which escapes me right now) to be strongly remeniscent of Moria, which put me off for a moment or two, but otherwise absolutely no complaints here.[/quote]

I'm sure that all the LOTR references are quite intentional. Aculus is Moria, the old fort in the mountains where they make their last stand is Helms Deep and so on. The next time I reread LOTR it will take a lot of effort not fantisizing about Gandalf sending his tame torturer to threaten Arwen into having sex with Aragorn.

And that's [i][b]your[/b][/i] fault, Joe Abercrombie!

[The Wolf Maid]

[quote name='Lupigis' post='1277642' date='Mar 18 2008, 15.46']I'm sure that all the LOTR references are quite intentional. Aculus is Moria, the old fort in the mountains where they make their last stand is Helms Deep and so on. The next time I reread LOTR it will take a lot of effort not fantisizing about Gandalf sending his tame torturer to threaten Arwen into having sex with Aragorn.

And that's [i][b]your[/b][/i] fault, Joe Abercrombie![/quote]
I think its highly possible there's a fanfic out there with the scenario you presented.

[Jon AS]

Ah, I was contemplating starting a spoiler thread on this as well. Awesome book, awesome series.

There aren't all that many stories in which the bad guy wins, and those there are rarely have such a cleverly disguised villain. Throughout the first two books, Bayaz seems more or less like the stereotypical old wizard. Yes, he's obviously a great deal more ruthless than Gandalf, but I kind of gave him a pass here, even when other characters reacted with supreme irritation to him, and I still expected him to work towards a greater good in the end. Towards the end of the second book I began to suspect that the twist in the third would be that Bayaz was more of a villain than a hero, but the sheer scope of his evil was still rather surprising.

This now makes me wonder: is Khalul as bad as Bayaz, or is he perhaps what the latter pretended to be: someone using heinous means to achieve a greater good? We never meet him, but the self-loathing his Eaters demonstrate, and the fact that he is right in his accusations of Bayaz, almost makes me lean towards the second option.

As to the fates of the individual characters, everyone with the possible exception of Ferro and Glokta (who by the way turned out to be quite a bit more amoral than I expected. Funny how I am willing to overlook a lot when a character is amusing) is worse of than they were at the start. Logen lost the last handful of people he could consider his friends, Jezal is a powerless puppet king (though he at least might be reasonable happy as long as he stays ignorant about his wife, I guess), most of the others are dead. Harsh.

[Padreic]

[quote]This now makes me wonder: is Khalul as bad as Bayaz, or is he perhaps what the latter pretended to be: someone using heinous means to achieve a greater good?[/quote]

What greater good could that be? The only possible reason for creating the Hundred Words (a pretty cool name, btw) is to destroy the Magi. But why would that be a greater good? Juvens won't come back to life, Bayaz didn't do more harm than any other emperor might do, all the other magi idle. I think it is the way Bayaz himself said: Khalul and Bayaz simply hate each other. Maybe Khalul had reason to hate him, but in the end it is just about getting revenge - and both used whol peoples to do so. The only difference is: Bayaz empire is clearly not as bad as Khalul's.

[quote]the self-loathing his Eaters demonstrate, and the fact that he is right in his accusations of Bayaz, almost makes me lean towards the second option.[/quote]
Well, the self-loathing might just come from having to eat one' sparents..