Last Argument of Kings SPOILER THREAD

[Sheep the Evicted]

[quote name='john' post='1283169' date='Mar 21 2008, 14.00']Where are you getting this from? Bayaz went to flame her and Tolmei, despite being ten paces away, instantly smacked him into a wall where he lay senseless. Yulwei intervened and later Bayaz he chopped her with the divider and dropped a machine on her. If he was relying purely on his own strength and speed he'd have been fucked.

Yulwei, I admit, does show super reflexes, but I took that as a personal thing. I'm not sure you can categorise all those who touch the other side as having super reflexes. Everyone's different, all the Eaters, the Magi and Bayaz's sneaky apprentices appear to have different skills, depending on what laws they break and magic they draw on.

So, I still say it would be possible to sneak up on Bayaz and cut his throat.[/quote]

I don't have the book to hand at the moment but i was reffering to when Tomei reached for the seed and Bayaz migic-flung her into the wall and Ferro said something along the lines of the speed of it being breath taking.

Which now that i think about it is not the same thing as super speed so your right.

On the other hand you made me realise that for Bayaz to get up after being smacked around by someone who can punch through walls probably means he has super-durability or something. I just refuse to believe that killling the age old Maker-Slaying Bayaz would be as simple as poisoning him. at least not by conventional means.

As for the seed- poisoning i always explained it away as magical. I just called it radiation poisoning because the symptoms where so similar but i doubt they are the same thing. I think the disease is magical in nature and sort of picks and chooses victims. How else would you explain some people getting the disease and others not getting it.

[Maid Sansa]

Just finished the book. My god, I am so depressed now. If that's supposed to be a bittersweet ending, I don't want to know what a bitter one is.

Ardee... "If you can't have what you want, you should want what you have". West... dying or dead. *sniffle* Glokta... "Mercy never did anyone any good," but he showed mercy to Ardee. I found it physically painful to read some of his chapters. Jezal and Terez... *deep sigh* Bayaz... I thought he was too smarmy and jolly to be true! And I've been suspecting that he killed Tolomei for a long time, but not that she'd come back. And Logen? Die, Joe Abercrombie, you who made me like a delusional murderer! Also, poor Dogman. So disillusioned.

ETA: I also think that Ferro and Logen deserve each other.

[Poobah]

I'm beginning to suspect that Bayaz killed Juvens. :o

-Poobs

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Poobah']I'm beginning to suspect that Bayaz killed Juvens.[/quote]

:lol:

[Lupigis]

[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1284341' date='Mar 22 2008, 11.46']If that's supposed to be a bittersweet ending, I don't want to know what a bitter one is.[/quote]

Word!

[Joe Abercrombie]

[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1284341' date='Mar 22 2008, 10.46']Just finished the book. My god, I am so depressed now. If that's supposed to be a bittersweet ending, I don't want to know what a bitter one is.[/quote]
My editor made me brighten it up a bit.

You should have seen the original version.

Glad to see everyone's enjoyed it, anyway. Or maybe enjoyed is the wrong word. Appreciated. Been affected. Made to think.

Something like that...

[Sheep the Evicted]

I don't see what was so extremely bitter about the ending. There where some bad bits true but all the main characters that we have grown to so love and hate came out on top.

Jezal is busy being a great king to his people and he has a hot wife eager to jump his bones.

Glokta runs the empire, also has a hot wife (one that actually loves him, or at least likes him, and that he loves right back) and in time he probably will work himself some wiggle room. At least now when he does some evil it is most likely necessary for the greater good.

Bayaz won.

Logen is most probably still alive. Which means everyone who crossed him is dead.

Ardee could do a lot worse.

West won glory.

The Northmen (except Dogman); it was inevitable. And yes Tul Durus death hurt but shit happens in the north.

Dogman he deserves the luxury he will get as chief ambassador of the northen allies and friend of Jezals friend.

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1285743' date='Mar 24 2008, 00.48']My editor made me brighten it up a bit.

You should have seen the original version.[/quote]

That cheered me up though. I couldn't believe that after all the "breaking the mould" hype you chickened out from killing any of your lead characters. Especially when i wanted two of them to die in horribly painful ways for most of the book.

Anyway can we ask you questions like what the hell is the Bloody-Nine ? Or what's the easiest way to kill Bayaz ? Or as a psychologist how you would profile Logen ?

Saadly thats all i got for now.

[Jon AS]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie']My editor made me brighten it up a bit.

You should have seen the original version.[/quote]

Interesting, could you perhaps elaborate on that a little bit, or do we have to wait for the posthumous release of your version of a "History of Abercrombieworld"?

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']I don't see what was so extremely bitter about the ending. There where some bad bits true but all the main characters that we have grown to so love and hate came out on top.[/quote]

Okay, humour doesn't always survive the translation to a post on a message board, so I have to ask: are you serious?

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted']I couldn't believe that after all the "breaking the mould" hype you chickened out from killing any of your lead characters.[/quote]

I thought that was an important reason why the ending is so damned depressing: most major characters survive, but they are not truly happy, and that bastard Bayaz keeps pulling everyone's strings.

[mormont]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1285743' date='Mar 24 2008, 00.48']Glad to see everyone's enjoyed it, anyway. Or maybe enjoyed is the wrong word. Appreciated. Been affected. Made to think.

Something like that...[/quote]

You know, I finished the book yesterday morning, and I didn't post here for exactly that reason... it made me think and it affected me and I had to have a bit of time to let it sink in. (And let me tell you, I was depressed the whole fucking day. On a Sunday, too. Thanks a lot, Joe.)

My initial reaction was a feeling that it was a little [i]too[/i] bleak, that Joe had gone a little too far in trying to turn around our expectations, that it needed a bone thrown to the readers - even if it was just Bayaz getting a smack in the chops somehow.

But that was my initial reaction. On further reflection, I think it's fine as is. Yeah, some characters got raw deals, but on the whole (and this was part of the theme of the series) they had all done [i]something[/i] to deserve it. And none of us get what we deserve in life, something for which 99% of us should be damned grateful. Of course, others got more than they deserved, but that too is how life is. (And really, who didn't cheer for Glokta becoming Arch Lector, in a tiny bit of their heart? ;))

Bayaz certainly did not get what he deserved, and that's the biggest sticking point. He turned out to be a far bigger asshole than I ever thought he would. But then again: although he might be an egotistical, arrogant, ruthless, hypocritical, vain, selfish, unscrupulous bastard, devoid of any sense of fairness or decency, how else do you survive for a thousand years as possibly the most powerful man in the world?

I think there are going to be a lot of people who will dislike the ending. But I hope that there will be a few who, as Joe says, find it makes them think. There's a lot to think about.

I have further comments on specific issues but I don't have the time just now... maybe later.

[Jon AS]

Mormont's post reminded me that while adressing various details of the plot in my posts, I forgot to mention something rather important, and since Joe is around this might be a good time to bring it up: I really liked this series, and think that the ending is great for all the reasons mormont mentioned.

I am looking forward to any stories Joe will tell in the future.

[The Wolf Maid]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1285743' date='Mar 24 2008, 08.48']You should have seen the original version.[/quote]
Do we by any chance, when the series is 'finished', get a glimpse of this? I'm honestly curious.

[size=1]I haven't read the book yet and I'm being affected. Damn it, why does it takes so long to reach our shores.[/size] :cry:

[Lupigis]

[quote name='The Wolf Maid' post='1286012' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.34']Do we by any chance, when the series is 'finished', get a glimpse of this? I'm honestly curious.[/quote]

You know, I think Joe may have been joking about the original ending...

[Joe Abercrombie]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1285940' date='Mar 24 2008, 05.40']Interesting, could you perhaps elaborate on that a little bit, or do we have to wait for the posthumous release of your version of a "History of Abercrombieworld"?[/quote]
I'd rather not get into specifics. It wasn't a case of major changes, just introducing a few rays of light, and on consideration I completely agreed with her, and the book is much better for it. This is the great thing about editors. Often quite small things can make a big difference, certainly no extra cities were destroyed, no-one died that doesn't die now or anything like that.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 01.34']That cheered me up though. I couldn't believe that after all the "breaking the mould" hype you chickened out from killing any of your lead characters. Especially when i wanted two of them to die in horribly painful ways for most of the book.[/quote]

[quote name='Jon AS' post='1285940' date='Mar 24 2008, 05.40']I thought that was an important reason why the ending is so damned depressing: most major characters survive, but they are not truly happy, and that bastard Bayaz keeps pulling everyone's strings.[/quote]

[quote name='mormont' post='1285995' date='Mar 24 2008, 09.37']I think there are going to be a lot of people who will dislike the ending. But I hope that there will be a few who, as Joe says, find it makes them think. There's a lot to think about.[/quote]
I hope so. On the specific of character death, although most of the cliches of fantasy root back to Tolkein, it seems that the newer offshoot of gritty fantasy is starting to develop a few cliches of its own. It's almost par for the course now, a la martin, to have massive character death all over the place. So much so that I've seen threads around about The First Law where people are asking - who's going to die in the end, then? Probably they'll be more shocked and upset by only one central person dying, and him in a very ragged, unconcluded and unglamorous way, than they would by the whole cast being extinguished in a final ride for glory. For me there are potentially more interesting things you can do with a character than kill them off (not that you can't do that with huge effect as well).

Part of the problem, I think, is that killing your characters at the end of a book is almost as much of a neat resolution as the happy victory of righteousness and the kingdom reunited type ending. It's a sadder type , perhaps, but still a neat one, and I think people generally long for that. They laugh or they cry, but either way it's finished, resolved, comfortable. The main thing I was trying to do with these books was make them feel to some extent like real life, like the lives of these characters had gone on before the start of the books and would continue after. Life has few neat resolutions. There's war in Iraq, there's victory in Iraq, but clearly the story doesn't end there. It barely even starts there. So I didn't want glorious deaths for my characters any more than I wanted glorious victories. There are very rarely any such things, except in stories.

I don't myself feel like that was chickening out, but I know some people will, and I know some people will also just turned off by the futility of the whole thing, but them's the breaks, you have to call it as you see it.

[quote name='mormont' post='1285995' date='Mar 24 2008, 09.37']Bayaz certainly did not get what he deserved, and that's the biggest sticking point. He turned out to be a far bigger asshole than I ever thought he would. But then again: although he might be an egotistical, arrogant, ruthless, hypocritical, vain, selfish, unscrupulous bastard, devoid of any sense of fairness or decency, how else do you survive for a thousand years as possibly the most powerful man in the world?[/quote]
When I was pretty young I read Tolkien's foreword to the Lord of the Rings, in which he says something along the lines of, if the books had been an allegory for the World Wars, then Gandalf would have used the ring. I thought right away that would have made a very interesting book. I was interested in looking at that whole massive cliche of the goodly wizard advisor guide bloke which we're so familiar with. The righteous, benieficent, goodly use of power. Given how ruthless, manipulative and self-serving most mortal politicians seem to be, how ruthless would they almost certainly become if they were basically immortal and personally very powerful? It goes back to the whole issue of good and evil in fantasy as well, which of course I'm by no means the first to look at, but I wanted very much to look at those questions of - is there such a thing as heroes and villains, or does it depend purely on perspective? Is there a right side, or is there only our side?

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 01.34']Anyway can we ask you questions like what the hell is the Bloody-Nine ? Or what's the easiest way to kill Bayaz ? Or as a psychologist how you would profile Logen ?[/quote]
I'd rather not get too much into the specifics, let the text do the talking and readers make their own conclusions about exactly what's going on. I like things a bit ambiguous, because life is, and everything is different from different points of view.

With Logen, though, I was interested in investigating the nature of violence, and particularly how it's portrayed in fantasy. As sexy and disposable, on the whole. We're often shown these men with a dark past and are invited to think of that as glamorous, that a man can be a killer but basically still be a good bloke. There's this dark glamour associated with someone being dangerous in real life, but on the whole, in my experience, being dangerous means being more aggressive, more willing to go to the extremes of violence more quickly than people generally will. It's pretty disgusting, in fact, and has a disgusting effect on everyone around. So the hope was that readers would just be caught up in the well-meaning buffoon side of Logen's personality, and give him a completely free pass on a brutal past (yeah, yeah, he's killed more men than the plague, whatever). Then when it's gradually revealed what a nasty, destructive, self-deluding, self-excusing piece of work he is, with any luck the reader feels kind of horrified to have been taken in. But then again, he's also a funny, warm, comradely guy. Like Jezal says, you're the best man I know, and for him that's true. Such are the contradictions of real people, he says pretentiously...

[Maid Sansa]

I definitely appreciated the book and the way it made me think.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Jezal is busy being a great king to his people and he has a hot wife eager to jump his bones.[/quote]
A king who knows he's a puppet, lives in permanent fear and has a wife who's revolted by him and is being blackmailed into pretending she wants to jump his bones, basically making her an accessory in her own rape. I'd have spent my days plotting hs death if I was Terez.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Glokta runs the empire, also has a hot wife (one that actually loves him, or at least likes him, and that he loves right back) and in time he probably will work himself some wiggle room. At least now when he does some evil it is most likely necessary for the greater good.[/quote]
Glokta is still a horrible, twisted and cruel man, not to mention a cripple, and his strings are being pulled even more obviously. Greater good? You mean Bayaz's thousand-year-old temper tantrum...

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Bayaz won.[/quote]
And I really wish he didn't.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Logen is most probably still alive. Which means everyone who crossed him is dead.[/quote]
Probably? And merely alive? To do what - kill more people? I honestly can't decide if I want Logen dead or alive, and that's what makes it worse. He had an awesome full circle ending, though. It just made so much sense.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Ardee could do a lot worse.[/quote]
Sure, she could be dead. And maybe, just maybe she could have something good in her life for a change? And that's not just being a nursemaid for the rest of her life.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']West won glory.[/quote]
I'm sure the worms will ask very politely if they may gnaw on his wasted-by-radiation-sickness body in his grave. :P

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']The Northmen (except Dogman); it was inevitable. And yes Tul Durus death hurt but shit happens in the north.[/quote]
Fuck fate.

[quote name='Sheep the Evicted' post='1285782' date='Mar 24 2008, 02.34']Dogman he deserves the luxury he will get as chief ambassador of the northen allies and friend of Jezals friend.[/quote]
Dogman is an exile, put there by a bastard of bastards, and you think he'll be accepted with open arms back in the North now that Logen is away?

[mormont]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1286030' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.03']For me there are potentially more interesting things you can do with a character than kill them off (not that you can't do that with huge effect as well).

Part of the problem, I think, is that killing your characters at the end of a book is almost as much of a neat resolution as the happy victory of righteousness and the kingdom reunited type ending. It's a sadder type , perhaps, but still a neat one, and I think people generally long for that. They laugh or they cry, but either way it's finished, resolved, comfortable.[/quote]

This is one of the things that came to me on reflecting for a bit (hence, I'm glad I did that before posting). I realised I would have been perfectly OK with Jezal dying: that wouldn't have been a 'happy ending', but yes, it would have been a neater one and hence more satisfying to me. I could have said 'hey, he wasn't perfect but in the end he did his best'. It's a lot easier to forgive someone who fails and dies than someone who fails and survives.

[quote]The main thing I was trying to do with these books was make them feel to some extent like real life, like the lives of these characters had gone on before the start of the books and would continue after. Life has few neat resolutions. There's war in Iraq, there's victory in Iraq, but clearly the story doesn't end there. It barely even starts there. So I didn't want glorious deaths for my characters any more than I wanted glorious victories. There are very rarely any such things, except in stories.[/quote]

That's true, but myself, I feel that 'to some extent' in the first sentence is crucial. Stretching the boundaries is fine, but you need to start within them (as, to be fair, the series does admirably). In the end you are still telling a story and we are still buying the books looking for one. It is possible to go too far (rather like using dischords in music: used carefully they are powerful tools, but complete atonality is not everyone's cup of tea). At first I thought that the ending maybe got too close to that line, but on reflection I think that might have been a result of reading too much, too fast, and not having had time to reflect.

[quote]It goes back to the whole issue of good and evil in fantasy as well, which of course I'm by no means the first to look at, but I wanted very much to look at those questions of - is there such a thing as heroes and villains, or does it depend purely on perspective? Is there a right side, or is there only our side?[/quote]

I think that the overall impression I got was of a 'lesser of two evils' situation - bad as Bayaz was, the forces he was fighting were probably worse. Not sure, though, to what extent this is a remnant of my own assumptions, so to speak. ;)

[john]

[quote name='mormont' post='1285995' date='Mar 24 2008, 09.37']My initial reaction was a feeling that it was a little [i]too[/i] bleak, that Joe had gone a little too far in trying to turn around our expectations, that it needed a bone thrown to the readers - even if it was just Bayaz getting a smack in the chops somehow.[/quote]

That was pretty much exactly my reaction too. Unlike mormie, i [i]did[/i] post immediately after finishing it, however. On reflection, it is better the way it is.

[quote name='Maid Sansa' post='1286033' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.14']Sure, she could be dead. And maybe, just maybe she could have something good in her life for a change? And that's not just being a nursemaid for the rest of her life.[/quote]

Ardee got a better deal than most. Her ending wasn't very depressing at all.

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1286030' date='Mar 24 2008, 11.03']Part of the problem, I think, is that killing your characters at the end of a book is almost as much of a neat resolution as the happy victory of righteousness and the kingdom reunited type ending. It's a sadder type , perhaps, but still a neat one, and I think people generally long for that. They laugh or they cry, but either way it's finished, resolved, comfortable. The main thing I was trying to do with these books was make them feel to some extent like real life, like the lives of these characters had gone on before the start of the books and would continue after. Life has few neat resolutions. There's war in Iraq, there's victory in Iraq, but clearly the story doesn't end there. It barely even starts there. So I didn't want glorious deaths for my characters any more than I wanted glorious victories. There are very rarely any such things, except in stories.[/quote]

So you knew all along and still refused to do your job properly! :P

[Isis]

Although on the one hand I'm rather fond of fairy tales - stories with a beginning, middle and end tied neatly with a bow (also featuring an obvious [i]moral lesson[/i]) - I like realism too. In real life people frequently do not end up with either what they want or what they deserve, even if they're 'good' people, who try really hard to do the right thing. And that happens in all areas of life: family, friendship, work, love... So I wasn't expecting a happy ending and you didn't disappoint me. :)

As for Logen, I've had sufficient experience of psychologically damaged alpha males/beserkers with alter egos to say that the picture you paint is fairly convincing. It all rings true to me.

[Lupigis]

[quote name='Joe Abercrombie' post='1286030' date='Mar 24 2008, 12.03']With Logen, though, I was interested in investigating the nature of violence, and particularly how it's portrayed in fantasy. As sexy and disposable, on the whole. We're often shown these men with a dark past and are invited to think of that as glamorous, that a man can be a killer but basically still be a good bloke. There's this dark glamour associated with someone being dangerous in real life, but on the whole, in my experience, being dangerous means being more aggressive, more willing to go to the extremes of violence more quickly than people generally will.[/quote]

I was gearing up for a long post about this but now it seems like I don't have to :). For me the most important theme of The First Law is the cost of violence - how using it has all sorts of negative consequences, both for the violent persons and the people around them. I totally agree that fantasy (and popular culture in general) is often far too willing to trivialise violence and gloss over the dark side of violent persons. I posted about this [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=1330&view=findpost&p=1271718"]in the Richard Morgan thread[/url], but that was before I had read Last Argument of Kings. Having read it, I'd just like to add that I am very happy about the direction in wich you chose develop the theme of violence and it's consequences (even though I am simultaneously very sad about the fates of the main characters).

[Maid Sansa]

Well, we could say that Ardee got the least raw of raw deals. But first, who's to say her troubles are over? Other people know her child is Jezal's, and may want her out of the way WHEN (not if) Glokta falls. And much as we are all Glokta fanboys and fangirls around here, he's still a torturer, a murderer, a blackmailer and an all-round bad person. This is someone who honestly doesn't see anything wrong with torturing innocent people until they confess. Not exactly the ideal man to spend your life with... Although perhaps Ardee is ruthless enough that with her wits, she could rise to power with his aid in her own right.

[The Iceman of the North]

Finished this last night, and haven't too much to add to what has already been said. West's demise was horrid. Glotka did a lot of bad things (for the greater good) throughout the series, but you kind of had to forgive him for it. But the way he forced Terez to fuck Jezal was the final straw for me. Having a talk with her reminding her about her 'duties' (as distasteful as we find these today, they are the though reality of that setting) is one thing, but imprisoning her lover and threatening with gang rape?

I liked how Jezal was on the verge of becoming the (clichéd) great, against all odds, King, but then having his leach snapped back.

A little personal anecdote at the end. I was at Eastercon last weekend. On Sunday I was sitting reading the book when this woman came up to me asking if it was any good. Thinking that this would be a good chance to plug Joe (he really needs it), I asked her if she'd read any of the previous books which she apparently had. As I was about to start the plugging, she directed my attention to the name tag of the bloke she was with (there was a bloke there? who cares about those?), some Joe something... She seemed a bit disappointed when Joe claimed he knew me. Later I found out she was his editor, Gillian, so I do hope she spoke the truth about actually having read the books. Joe, are your books selling so badly that you have to have your editor accost random strangers to plug your book?