258 replies to this topic

[siyrean]

remember Rob only beheaded Lord Karstark, the accomplises were hanged. i think Janos probably isn't beheading worthy

[Brady]

Wow, hardcore. It's about time the good guys stopped pussy footing around with their enemies. Slynt disobeyed a direct order, and was punished for it. Beautiful.

Of course, this being GRRM, it will probably come back to bite Jon on the arse.

[Spectral-Fremen]

Jon is the man.
Him and Robb own hardcore.
But Robb died, so all his own passed onto Jon.
Jon is now an effergy own that will bring justice and ruin upon his foes.
Beware.

[Wrex]

OMG, I think ill start wanking over that chapter.  :D

[burnt hound]

Pretty cool. But is it for real, or is this chapter another hoax like the "Maege Mormont" one before. I'm sceptical...

But it would be cool if it was real. Slynt the bastard deserves to die. :P

[Ran]

So, any confirmations regarding George stating that this chapter was in SpectraPulse magazine? Because from what George reported, it's totally not the same chapter.

I'll also guess the magazine itself was not available at TechniCon.

[Loras]

My main question about this chapter is: how much time passed between Jon giving the command for Slynt to be hanged and the hanging to take place?

My main reason for this being that if very little time passes then it can hardly be a spur of the moment decision because Jon had to have a 100ft long rope prepared in advance.  I think that Jon had planned for this turn of events, I think this could be the defining moment where he 'kills the boy' in the eyes of all the doubting watchmen.

Another question: Was Melisandre in this chapter at all?

We got Stannis' reaction but I think it would be much more interesting if we could compare it to Mel's reaction.

What an awesome chapter though!

[Maia]

Great chapter! I like how Jon develops in a different direction from either Ned or Robb and becomes more practical and devious than either. Robb died a boy - not just because of his age, but also because of his stubborn adherence to simplified view of reality. And while Ned was very serious and solemn, I don't see him acting in the ways that Jon did here either.

My opinion of Jon Arryn as the Hand reaches new low here - a nice example of the sympathetic  POVs subjectivity ;). I am more certain than ever now that the tunnel to Chataya's was built for him.

Very interesting glimpse of Aemon - Egg relationship, too. It looks that Egg was quite reluctant to accept the Crown. Also, it seems very likely that Aemon should have known the salient details of the Summerhall events - it is so frustrating that he died without sharing them with the reader!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I can only think of a few things to add.  First, Slynt was being sent to Greyguard and that was the castle closest to the location Jon scaled the Wall with the Wildlings.  GRRM at his panel on "Anti-Protaginists" made the comment that Jon would soon become a much greyer character than we had seen in the past.  I speculate that the noose is the penalty for disobeying a direct order and the axe or sword is the penalty for desertion.  In the brief seconds before Jon orders Slynt hung he does speculate on putting Slynt in an ice cell or tying him to his horse and forcing him to go to Greymark.  He concludes that would be delaying the inevitable and orders Slynt hung.  

One thing that isn't clear.  At the start of the Chapter which takes place over the course of two or three days it appears that Jon, in his discussions with Sam, is unaware of Tywin's murder.  Then as Slynt is being dragged off, he is aware of Tywin's murder.  I suppose the news could have arrived later in the day after Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon left but it isn't mentioned overtly.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 31 March 2008 - 06:50 AM.

[Ran]

Appointing Slynt isn't something that I think should necessarily detract from Jon Arryn as Hand. Same with appointing Littlefinger. These seem to have been men who were clearly capable of doing the jobs handed to them ,and presumably at the time Janos did not seem to be notably corrupt.

When his corruption became clear afterwards, we're told that Jon Arryn gathered the evidence to try and have him removed, and it was Robert who overruled him.

[Asharak]

Impressive.  Jon has always been my favorite character, but as others have said elsewhere he has always been a little bit too much your regular fantasy main male hero type. From what we heard in AFFC and so far in the preview chapters it seems ADWD will be the book were Jon finally becomes the type of character ASOIAF is famous for. Every single moment we have seen of Jon so far as lord Commander has been great. Making Gilli feel the fire gave me goose bumps.

As others have said beheading would probably have made it seem to the others like Jon did it just for his own satisfaction, and that would have been really dangerous in the future. Killing Janos will probably help keep other potencial opponents in line. He is turning into probably the first Stark ever liked by Stannis.

Edited by Asharak, 31 March 2008 - 08:37 AM.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Asharak,

Asharak, on Mar 31 2008, 09.36, said:

Impressive.  Jon has always been my favorite character, but as others have said elsewhere he has always been a little bit too much your regular fantasy main male hero type. From what we heard in AFFC and so far in the preview chapters it seems ADWD will be the book were Jon finally becomes the type of character ASOIAF is famous for. Every single moment we have seen of Jon so far as lord Commander has been great. Making Gilli feel the fire gave me goose bumps.

I had my daughter in my lap during the reading.  That passage made me hold her a little more tightly.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 31 March 2008 - 09:03 AM.

[alguien]

Maia, on Mar 31 2008, 07.35, said:

Great chapter! I like how Jon develops in a different direction from either Ned or Robb and becomes more practical and devious than either. Robb died a boy - not just because of his age, but also because of his stubborn adherence to simplified view of reality. And while Ned was very serious and solemn, I don't see him acting in the ways that Jon did here either.

Ah, Ned would have done the same thing. Say what you will about him, but he was dead serious about the Wall. The very first chapter we see him in he beheads someone!

[Septic Septon]

Quote

Then he meets with Giant, and gives him the command of one of the forts with 20 Watchmen and 10 King's men. He tells him about all the things he needs to do to repair the fort, that he will be getting a Maester and two ravens for emergencies. Giant rolls out.

Hopefully we will see more of him. Cool character. But where would Jon find a maester ? He's sending Sam south because he lacks maesters, besides the two goons at Eastwatch and Shadow Tower. Maybe Stannis has brought some with him.

Quote

Next morning, Janos isn't in the yard ready to leave. Instead he is in the hall eating breakfast with Aliser Thorne and their cornies, laughing about the whole thing. The hall is full of men, Grenn, Pip, Donal, King's men, Thorne's supporters, etc.

??

Must be Sweet Donnel Hill.



As for Slynt I think Jon really left him a chance, he was ready for the worst but it was a test he could still have passed.

I am very surprised however that no word of his death would have reached the South in AFfC. Maybe Qyburn has been filtering information even more than suspected.

[JetboyGirl]

Ran, on Mar 31 2008, 04.11, said:

So, any confirmations regarding George stating that this chapter was in SpectraPulse magazine? Because from what George reported, it's totally not the same chapter.

I'll also guess the magazine itself was not available at TechniCon.

Ran, I have no idea about that. For some reason I thought it was going to be the same chapter, but it is very likely that I made that up in my head. I can't remember where I got that from. It might have been us speculating. Maybe someone else at Technicon remembers where I got that from?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Nadie,

Nadie, on Mar 31 2008, 11.00, said:

Ah, Ned would have done the same thing. Say what you will about him, but he was dead serious about the Wall. The very first chapter we see him in he beheads someone!

I'll tell you what Ned would never have done, promised to kill a child.  That was downright cold blooded.

LJBG,

I was never certian it was the same chapter to be printed in the magazine.  However, I missed the second session with GRRM on Friday night so I figured you must have heard something I didn't.

Ibsen's Crawfish,

During the reading Jon makes it clear to Sam, to Giant, and to Slynt he is sending to the Citadel to send more Maester's.  Whether the Citadel responds to the request is another question.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 31 March 2008 - 12:21 PM.

[Harry the Heir]

Ibsen's Crawfish, on Mar 31 2008, 12.12, said:

As for Slynt I think Jon really left him a chance, he was ready for the worst but it was a test he could still have passed.

Absolutely. Jon may have counted on Janos digging his own grave, but Janos absolutely could have accepted the order and saved his own life. Jon isn't Tywin Lannister... yet.

Quote

I am very surprised however that no word of his death would have reached the South in AFfC. Maybe Qyburn has been filtering information even more than suspected.

It could be simpler than that. Qyburn doesn't have informants on the Wall--I don't know that Varys did either; certainly I don't recall that he ever knew anything about the Night's Watch that wouldn't have come from a raven sent to King's Landing--and Jon saw no need to send an official announcement because Slynt was a Lannister ally.

[JetboyGirl]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Mar 31 2008, 06.43, said:

One thing that isn't clear.  At the start of the Chapter which takes place over the course of two or three days it appears that Jon, in his discussions with Sam, is unaware of Tywin's murder.  Then as Slynt is being dragged off, he is aware of Tywin's murder.  I suppose the news could have arrived later in the day after Sam, Gilly, and Maester Aemon left but it isn't mentioned overtly.

Ser Scott,
The more I think about this, the more I think that it is significant. At the beginning of the chapter, Jon was contemplating the Lannisters and how much he hates them. But he never once thinks of Tyrion or of Tywin, and you'd think that, given Jon's vengeful musings, he would really really be dwelling on this. After all, he liked Tyrion. They were buds. And here Tyrion takes revenge on the Lannisters while Jon takes revenge on Janos Slynt.

Of course, Janos yells 'If Tywin Lannister were still alive, you wouldn't...' When he hears that, Jon doesn't think anything about it, but maybe that's because he's kinda busy at the moment.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LJBG,

I always forget, in the later story, that Tyrion and Jon developed a friendship.  I think you're right if word had reached the wall that Tyrion had murdered Tywin you would think Jon would give that event some thought.  Particularly in light of Jon's own weird relationship with the man he believes to be his father.  

I can't believe Slynt would have known of Tywin's murder without Jon knowing first.  If Slynt did somehow get that big news before Jon then Jon was taking a much bigger risk than we thought in seizeing and executing Slynt.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 31 March 2008 - 12:38 PM.

[shevchenko65]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Mar 31 2008, 12.36, said:

I can't believe Slynt would have known of Tywin's murder without Jon knowing first.  If Slynt did somehow get that big news before Jon then Jon was taking a much bigger risk than we thought in seizeing and executing Slynt.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure Jon realizes that Tywin has much more important things to take care of then worry about Janos Slynt being executed on the well. Besides, Tywin doesn't have any power on the wall, except Slynt, to get back at Jon. If he did do something, I think it would be years before, (unless he plans to send some assassins), and I think Jon realises that his struggle with the others will peak before then.

Speaking of assassins, were they sent? Or did that plan get interrupted by what happened to Cersei? I know she wanted to send one of the Kettlebacks to kill Jon.