406 replies to this topic

[the silent speaker]

Carlos Delgado is starting to get hot. How many players have ever gotten two base hits in the same at-bat?

[Week]

Caliban, on May 18 2008, 21.17, said:

Is your baseball enjoyment derived from OPS? By your argument games taking place at Coors field are the best, and games at Petco suck.

Games at Petco do suck because the size of the field allows for bad pitchers to pitch effectively.

Caliban, on May 18 2008, 21.17, said:

Ozzie Smith's career Ops was .650.

He was a tremendous fielder and a terrible hitter.  Are you arguing otherwise?  Because to argue otherwise would be very foolish

Caliban, on May 18 2008, 21.17, said:

Pitchers are going to each hit 2-3 times a game. Thats a max of 6 PAs per game. They will probably be bunting 1-2 of those PAs. Is it that pathetic?

Yes, it is.

Caliban, on May 18 2008, 21.17, said:

Small sample size, bro.

I bet he doesn't end up last this year.  Fact is though, somebody has to.  There are several players that show up near the bottom each year that aren't nearly the hitter that Manny is.

[Jaxom 1974]

Whiskeyjack, on May 18 2008, 20.18, said:

Thanks for making the argument for why you are jumping the gun on Felix Pie.  Appreciate it.  :D

:lol: Touche.

However:

2007 - 87 games, 177 ABs, 38 H, 2 HRs, 43 SO, .271 OBP, .333 SLG, .215 AVG

2008 - 30 games, 63 ABs, 14 H, 1 HRs, 23 SO, 286 OBP, .286 SLG, .222 AVG

A small sample to be certain, but shouldn't a 5 tool player be able to show us a little more than that in 240 ABs?

Edited by Jaxom 1974, 18 May 2008 - 08:36 PM.

[Caliban]

Weekapaug, on May 18 2008, 20.23, said:

He was a tremendous fielder and a terrible hitter.  Are you arguing otherwise?  Because to argue otherwise would be very foolish

Right. Im not using a slippery slope argument; but by your logic baseball would be best suited if the SS and C positions would be DHed also. Taken further, it would be best to have a football style specialized offense and defense.

Week and WJ are saying theyd rather see another talented hitter in the batters box who might not be able to see the field otherwise do to poor defense. I like players justifying bad defense by mashing the ball or just flat out be able to play baseball well, which includes fielding.

I kinda feel like Week has no choice because he is an AL fan and WJ has no choice because he knows Miguel Cabrera is about to fail at the last defensive position left for him (Fla and Detroit have tried everthing, and its just not working) and is going to play out that contract as a DH (though id happily take him and stick him in left or first and deal with the defense to get that bat in the lineup.)

[Caliban]

Jaxom 1974, on May 18 2008, 20.34, said:

:lol: Touche.

However:

2007 - 87 games, 177 ABs, 38 H, 2 HRs, 43 SO, .271 OBP, .333 SLG, .215 AVG

2008 - 30 games, 63 ABs, 14 H, 1 HRs, 23 SO, 286 OBP, .286 SLG, .222 AVG

A small sample to be certain, but shouldn't a 5 tool player be able to show us a little more than that in 240 ABs?

I could dig up a bunch of future hall of famers and actual HOFers that were similiarly bad in there first 240ABs (in many cases way more then 240) at the age of 22-23. Look at A Rod's first 2 seasons.

Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG *OPS+  TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1994 18 SEA AL  17   54    4   11   0  0   0    2   3  0   3  20  .204  .241  .204   16   11   1   1   0   0   0
1995 19 SEA AL  48  142   15   33   6  2   5   19   4  2   6  42  .232  .264  .408   72   58   1   0   0   0   0

Im sure seattle was glad they gave him 600 ABs in 1996.

Also, Patterson did not play nearly as well in Iowa as Pie has.

Edited by Caliban, 18 May 2008 - 08:44 PM.

[Myshkin]

Weekapaug, on May 18 2008, 16.50, said:

Ah, see I always thought that in baseball you were supposed to score more runs than the other team.

I guess you haven't read the statistical analysis of the benefits of stolen bases and sacrifices.  Seriously, if the argument against the DH is that you want to see double switches, that is fucking pathetic.  I can't even begin to tell you how stupid that is.

You know what?  You're right.  The DH is awesome.  In fact It would be even more awesome if there were 9 DH's on every team.  That way we could see a bunch of ringers who didn't have the glove to make the bigs hit homers every day.  Wouldn't that be awesome?!!

If you don't play the field you shouldn't be allowed to bat.  And if you don't bat you shoudn't be allowed to play the field.

As for the double switch:  I happen to enjoy the strategy of baseball.  But since you don't have strategy in the AL I guess I really can't blame you for not understanding it.

[Week]

Caliban, on May 18 2008, 21.38, said:

Right. Im not using a slippery slope argument; but by your logic baseball would be best suited if the SS and C positions would be DHed also. Taken further, it would be best to have a football style specialized offense and defense.

Week and WJ are saying theyd rather see another talented hitter in the batters box who might not be able to see the field otherwise do to poor defense. I like players justifying bad defense by mashing the ball or just flat out be able to play baseball well, which includes fielding.

Pitchers generally bat with an OPS BELOW .400-.500!!!!  Other than Owings, the best hitting pitchers MIGHT crack .700 and that is rare as well.

There are 23 catchers that get regular or fairly regular time that have an OPS above .800.  Including Soto at 1.036 and McCann at .958, both are fantastic hitters.  You don't see that coming from any pitchers other than 1, whose OPS is only that high because he was still being pitched to as if he were a pitcher (read: all fastballs) so his OPS will drop significantly.

There are probably 15+ SS with an OPS above .700, again a plateau that almost no pitchers will hit.  The weaker hitting catchers and shortstops may play on teams because an organization chooses to value their defense over getting offense from that position.  Whereas with pitchers they have no choice, they need to go out and get the pitchers that will give them a chance to win from the mound not the plate.  Planning a team the other way around would be idiotic to say the least.

I want someone capable to fucking hit for these pitchers that were drafted for their talent PITCHING and for no other reason (except for maybe a few 2 way players, but still they don't practice hitting enough to refine their skill).  I can't believe you just tried to make that argument.  DH for Hanley Ramirez?  Fuck's sake.

Myshkin, on May 19 2008, 01.46, said:

As for the double switch:  I happen to enjoy the strategy of baseball.  But since you don't have strategy in the AL I guess I really can't blame you for not understanding it.

Not understanding it?  I've watched plenty of NL games with the double switch.  I've played seasons of NL style baseball in MLB05-08 and would double switch nearly every game.  None of it even begins to make up for the fact that watching (or hitting with) a pitcher fucking sucks.  Calling it real strategy is glorifying it to say the least.  I prefer strategy on the basepaths and in the batter's box rather than on the lineup card.  Adding a DH will not destroy that sort of strategy at all, hell have you ever watched a Twins or Angels game?  There is no reason that a NL style of baseball can't survive with a DH.  There is no rule that states that a DH has to be this big lumberjack that can only hit homers, unless I'm mistaken.