172 replies to this topic

[MattD]

Triskele, on Apr 30 2008, 09.57, said:

Another question I have that may or may not play into the concept of Severian as unreliable narrarator:

The effectiveness of the Claw.

It seems to work on and off.  He mentions some theory about how maybe it works when he was the one who caused the injury (like the man-ape) but I don't think we ever got a full explanation.  

[...]

I think he tried it on Jolenta to no avail.

The two times I remember Severian attempting to heal and it not working were Jonas and Jolenta, both of whom were in some way "artificial" or "artificially enhanced" people.  He's generally able to heal "normal humans," albeit with some limitations: he can't resurrect a whole battlefield, for example.

This is indeed an example of unreliable narration, in the sense that Severian at this point doesn't really understand what the Claw is and why it "works" for him.  The answers are made clearer in Urth of the New Sun.

[Triskele]

MattD, on Apr 30 2008, 17.33, said:

The answers are made clearer in Urth of the New Sun.

Stopped by Powell's today and they had a used version of this, just a black hard cover, very tomish, for $5.  Had to pick it up.

[Shryke]

Clearer =/= Actually Clear btw.

[back_packn]

Triskele, on Apr 29 2008, 11.17, said:

Started The Blade Itself and got about 40 pages in.  I think it's going to be a nice respit.  (I love the line in Glokta's chapte about how if he could torture anyone, it would be the inventor of steps)

Speaking of, I've always wondered if Glotka's pratical Severard (or however you spell his name) was a nod to Severian, or just a coincidence.

[Gigei]

Lord of Oop North, on Apr 29 2008, 15.34, said:

He is a womanizer, and every woman seems to throw herself at him. But the one sexual encounter we see, is basically a rape. It always seemed to me that he wanted to believe that all these women really wanted him, but that it was not necessarily so.

What the...I hadn't even realized that! That's a very good point. Btw you mean the sex on the boat, right?

[Triskele]

Gigei, on May 2 2008, 03.39, said:

What the...I hadn't even realized that! That's a very good point. Btw you mean the sex on the boat, right?

Which boat?  I don't remember this.  Jolenta wasn't on a boat I don't think if that's what you're talking about.

[Shryke]

Triskele, on May 2 2008, 10.39, said:

Which boat?  I don't remember this.  Jolenta wasn't on a boat I don't think if that's what you're talking about.

It was on a boat. Him and Jolenta. That scene had some seriously creepy implications.

[Triskele]

Shryke, on May 2 2008, 10.58, said:

It was on a boat. Him and Jolenta. That scene had some seriously creepy implications.

I'll have to re-read that.  


Does anyone know what happened with Agia at the end?  I mean, did she lose her desire to take revenge on Severian or did it just become impractical?  

And who the fuck is Hethor and where did he come from?

[Shryke]

Triskele, on May 2 2008, 11.41, said:

I'll have to re-read that.  


Does anyone know what happened with Agia at the end?  I mean, did she lose her desire to take revenge on Severian or did it just become impractical?  

And who the fuck is Hethor and where did he come from?

Agia replaced Vodalus as the leader of the Resistance or what they call themselves.

And I still don't know where the fuck Hethor came from. The only thing I can think is he might be that sailor Agia kept talking about who wanted her, but she kept refusing.

Edited by Shryke, 02 May 2008 - 11:51 AM.

[MattD]

Shryke, on May 2 2008, 11.50, said:

And I still don't know where the fuck Hethor came from. The only thing I can think is he might be that sailor Agia kept talking about who wanted her, but she kept refusing.

Yes, exactly.

And note that when he's described as a "sailor," this means "crew on a space ship," not a water vessel.

[Shryke]

MattD, on May 2 2008, 13.14, said:

Yes, exactly.

And note that when he's described as a "sailor," this means "crew on a space ship," not a water vessel.

That was a cool little reveal, especially with Jonas. I liked the idea that he was a robot they'd had to add flesh to in order to repair him.

[Triskele]

Shryke, on May 2 2008, 14.19, said:

That was a cool little reveal, especially with Jonas. I liked the idea that he was a robot they'd had to add flesh to in order to repair him.

OK, another thing I only sort of got:  So the soldier at the beginning of Citadel that he names "Miles" that is Jonas but he doesn't really know that he's Jonas?

[Shryke]

Triskele, on May 2 2008, 13.29, said:

OK, another thing I only sort of got:  So the soldier at the beginning of Citadel that he names "Miles" that is Jonas but he doesn't really know that he's Jonas?

From what I remember, it's Jonas returned to Earth by possessing Miles' body, in order to find Jolenta.

[Triskele]

Shryke, on May 2 2008, 15.08, said:

From what I remember, it's Jonas returned to Earth by possessing Miles' body, in order to find Jolenta.

That's exactly what I remember too, just that it seems he's not really aware of who he is or why he's there.  I don't know if that's just becuase he was killed and revived by the claw and he wasn't all there yet.  Vagueries everywhere.

[Shryke]

IT could also just be Severian imagining shit too.

[Gormenghast]

I MAY have found a contradiction, finally. It isn't a so much relevant one, but at least it would be completely justified.

When Severian describes Thecla's death he says that first they torture her for the first time. Then Severian goes to finish some other business, and when he's back Thecla is conscious again. They have a brief talk, then Severian passes her the kinfe and she kills herself.

Later (Agilus) Severian remembers something about Thecla's torture: "she (Agia) flew at me, drawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain".

This isn't entirely explicit and english isn't my first language, but I could extrapolate two elements there:
1- "sometimes" there may mean that a similar episode happened more than once. So it may be possible that Thecla's torture went on for longer than one episode, and that Severian, trying to idealize her, spared us the cruelty.
2- It may also mean that Thecla attacked Severian himself, like Agia did. This is more arguable but it's still part of Severian's attempt to embellish facts.

[Triskele]

Gormenghast, on May 2 2008, 15.38, said:

I MAY have found a contradiction, finally. It isn't a so much relevant one, but at least it would be completely justified.

When Severian describes Thecla's death he says that first they torture her for the first time. Then Severian goes to finish some other business, and when he's back Thecla is conscious again. They have a brief talk, then Severian passes her the kinfe and she kills herself.

Later (Agilus) Severian remembers something about Thecla's torture: "she (Agia) flew at me, drawing for my eyes as Thecla used sometimes to do when she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain".

This isn't entirely explicit and english isn't my first language, but I could extrapolate two elements there:
1- "sometimes" there may mean that a similar episode happened more than once. So it may be possible that Thecla's torture went on for longer than one episode, and that Severian, trying to idealize her, spared us the cruelty.
2- It may also mean that Thecla attacked Severian himself, like Agia did. This is more arguable but it's still part of Severian's attempt to embellish facts.

Very tough to tell.  I think it could also be read as saying that Thecla used to claw at her own eyes.

[Shryke]

Yeah, I took it as a reference to that torture thing they used on her.

Which was, btw, the coolest torture device EVER.

[Triskele]

Shryke, on May 2 2008, 17.13, said:

Yeah, I took it as a reference to that torture thing they used on her.

Which was, btw, the coolest torture device EVER.

I don't remember the description that well.  Just that it made her all whacked in the head afterwards.

[Gormenghast]

Triskele, on May 2 2008, 23.12, said:

Very tough to tell.  I think it could also be read as saying that Thecla used to claw at her own eyes.

It isn't coherent though.

In that line it is said that Thecla clawed at her (or his) eyes *because* "she could no longer bear the thoughts of imprisonment and pain".

While that passage is described in a different way. Thecla claws at her eyes as a reflex of the torture. Not even a conscious act. She's frightened by herself and fighting with an other self. She even says she can't control her hands and than trying to do it would take a lot of effort.

So in the torture scene she's fighting against an external aggression, in that line it seems a deliberate act of desperation caused by the captivity.