136 replies to this topic

[DomDayne]

paddydubh, on Sep 14 2009, 15.57, said:

For me this sort of story is implied in the text. Martin implies that Reed saves Ned not kills Dayne.

Pod saved Tyrion... and Killed Ser Mandon. I don't have the quote handy so I can't comment on how it was written or what was implied by the way Ned thought it, but I recall thinking when I read it, that it was Reed who killed Dayne...

[paddydubh]

[/quote]
The problem is that this interpretation simply doesn't fit with the facts known about Crannogmen warfare that we are given.  

They do fight with nets and poison tipped weapons from places of concealment.
They don't jump out in face to face confrontations with larger, stronger, better trained, better armed, better armoured opponents.  That's just the way they're presented.
[/quote]

I agree with you that the crannogmen fight on foot with nets and tridents etc but the way this fight is described  (7 horsemen , although they probably dismounted, in an open fight with 3 men) implies that concealment and the use of poison arrows isnt likely. I'm not ruling out that fact but in my eyes it was probably Reed interposing from a position where Dayne didnt notice him or had his full attenion on Ned. Perhaps he used a net or his trident. This is just my interpretation and Martin has left this open no doubt to fill us in on the detail later!

@ Dom Dayne

As before this is just my interpretation of the text... I'm paraphrasing but Ned says that arthur dayne would have killed him if it wasnt for howland reed. I interpret this more to blocking a blow/distracting Dayne rather than stabbing in the back or in Pod's case pushing off a ship to be crushed between the bows!

I do like the other suggestion that perhaps Reed and Ned aren't as friendly as we all assume and that there is bad blood between them thanks to an underhand killing of Arthur Dayne but I dont think it a reality. In my mind though it is just the pure luck/ timing from the underdog that allows them to beat a far superior knight. Not to mention outnumbering. Poison doesnt come into it at all for me as Dayne is wearing full armour and poison wouldnt necessarily work straight away.

[alguien]

I never got the impression that Ice was for ceremony only.  I suppose it could be the case, but it doesn't have to be.

Granted, Ned wasn't on par with Robert Baratheon or Sandor Clegane in terms of strength, but Valyrian steel is specifically known for being very light-weight, quick, and indestructible.  ("The sword is quick...that is the nature of Valyrian steel" Randyll Tarly says when dismissing Brienne's skill with Oathkeeper)

In which case, Ned wouldn't have to be super-strong to use it, and its weight and reach and ease of use would give him a pretty big advantage of a foe.

[Restless]

paddydubh, on Sep 14 2009, 20.40, said:

but Ned says that arthur dayne would have killed him if it wasnt for howland reed.

Gregor was in full-armour against Red Viper, yet was poisoned...
KISS - at the start of the battle Reed hits Dayne with his spear so he is poisoned.
few minutes later, everyone is dead or unable to fight except Ned and Dayne.
They both know that Dayne is better with the sword, yet Ned is not the man who will bow his head... and after exchanging several/more hits, Dayne realizes he's poisoned, falls down and asks for the mercy of Knight's death - from sword. Ned will do it. Himself.
He'll be happy for surviving and in same time forever ashamed of this victory. That's how I see it :)

[VorianGR]

Ned said he would be dead if not for Howland Reed. The way I see it, Dayne was ready to kill him when Howland hit him from behind, giving Ned the chance to counter-attack and strike the killing blow.

[Ser Howsmelly]

Re:

paddydubh, on Sep 14 2009, 10.57, said:

Of course this could be applied to Benjen and could be a huge factor in his decision to join the NW. Esp if he found out of Lyanna's death from Ned after the war (which is when he made his decision).

Thread - Benjen NW

[Rockroi]

Quote

My only question is, How in the world did she make her voice deep, and Didn't anyone notice she wasn't around?

1. As far as the voice being deep, others have made great points (people heard what they expected to hear and that Lyanna was FORCED to disguise her voice, thus making it much deeper than necessary).  I will only add that because the KotLT never removed his/her helm, the KotLT would be forced to speak through the helm.  Hence, the helm would actually assist in desguising the voice and making it deeper sounding.

2. Not noticing that Lyanna was missing.  Who ever said nobody noticed?  Maybe Ned or Howalnd did, but we don't know.  Its just not mentioned in the story. Remember, we have VERY LITTLE evidence of the KotLT and can only go on what we know.  And what we know ELIMINATES many others and none of it eliminates Lyanna.

[R+L= Your Mum]

Im sure this has been mentioned before, but doesn't it say that Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne? Does it mention him killing Arthur Dayne any where?

What if Howland just convinced Arthur to stand down? That Ned was just trying to save his sister?

[3idcrow]

R+L= Your Mum, on Sep 15 2009, 08.35, said:

Im sure this has been mentioned before, but doesn't it say that Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne? Does it mention him killing Arthur Dayne any where?

What if Howland just convinced Arthur to stand down? That Ned was just trying to save his sister?

That would be very sweet indeed, but alas, Ned and Howland were the only people who survived that encounter.

You have a great signature, btw.

[VorianGR]

R+L= Your Mum, on Sep 15 2009, 18.35, said:

Im sure this has been mentioned before, but doesn't it say that Reed saved him from Arthur Dayne? Does it mention him killing Arthur Dayne any where?

What if Howland just convinced Arthur to stand down? That Ned was just trying to save his sister?

Howland probably pushed him or hit him or something giving Ned the chance to kill Dayne.

[dragomort]

Why does everyone want to make a master of the ways of the children of the forest do something so banal as push a much larger and more skilled knight as his major heroic act? Turning the land beneath him to swamp or something similar is much more interesting. :P

[3idcrow]

dragomort, on Sep 16 2009, 15.48, said:

Why does everyone want to make a master of the ways of the children of the forest do something so banal as push a much larger and more skilled knight as his major heroic act? Turning the land beneath him to swamp or something similar is much more interesting. :P

Considering author's continuous attempts to downplay heroic acts Howard probably shouted: “Hey, Arthur, look: here comes Rheagar!” to distract Dayne’s attention and give Ned a chance.  :D

[Prince Bran]

This is quite amusing. Usually I'm all for simple explanations, but I'm surprised that so many interpreted that scene as Howland Reed shoving Arthur Dayne or something. I mean, it's possible...but as several have argued, Howland Reed isn't the sort of guy to get into a martial battle with Ser Arthur Dayne, The Sword of the Morning, who is universally praised (save Darkstar) as a great and dangerous knight.

It seems very likely that Howland Reed has some sort of Children of the Forest knowledge. It seems reasonable to imagine that he intervened using something along those lines (i.e. he didn't just shove Dayne -- and he certainly didn't use a shield to intercept a blow from Dawn).

Some have speculated that Dayne might still be alive, in exile. It's possible, but unlikely. The # of graves supports that he died. And there's nothing wrong with that. The delicious tragedy of it all is that here you have two groups of knights/warriors that are both doing their duty and what they believe is right (as opposed to the more commonly seen baser motivations of other knights/warriors in the series) -- one group is carrying out their Prince's commands, the other is following their Lord to reclaim his sister -- and the only ones to ride away from the whole thing are Stark, Reed, and Jon Snow.

[paddydubh]

I don't particularly agree with the view that Howland isn't the guy to get into a fight with arthur dayne. He accompanied Ned through the whole rebellion and fought at this fight. Perhaps he was there because he has some magical knowledge but there's no evidence of this in the books. There is evidence that meera has a substantial skill with her particular arms, no doubt learnt from her father. And how do you think Howland surived the whole fight with Whent and Hightower? How come he was the only survivor. I'm not ruling out some sort of crazy magical intervention but the books arent like that. Magic in the main is something quite subtle and not showy (apart from Rhllor stuff). Although saying that maybe he got a large flock of ravens to attack Dayne!

Especially at that part of the series I think the simplest physical explanation is best. I think a lot of people here are looking at it in hindsight after reading all novels. Plus as I've said before I like the whole fact that EVERYONE dies fighting these three knights.... 2 of them giving their lives to whittle down the numbers while the best of them manages to survive till he faces one opponent but gets stopped by a last gasp parry and thrust! In my mind its a much better scene than Howland using crazy greenmen techniques!

At this point I dont want it elaborated as I have this perfect scene in my mind....
I think the beauty of a lot of Martin's flashbacks/hearsays/ anything in the White book is that they mention heroic deeds but dont elaborate.

Personally I think he could right a million short stories based on these little things for example Ser Barristans rescue of Aerys from duskendale. Or even an expanded version of the KotLT.

[bacchys]

I'm not sure how much stock I put in Meera's tale with respect to how much CoF magic Howland Reed has mastered.  When the tale begins, Martin's is a low magic world.  Though not stated directly, it seems reasonable to accept that during Robert's Rebellion magic was at the same level or lower.  So I'm loathe to guess at a magical intervention when more mundane explanations are available and at least as likely.

A net can be a devastating weapon to a swordsman, and a net cast over Dayne as he duels with Stark could well be more than enough to tip the scales in Stark's favour.  Or perhaps as Dayne raises his sword to deliver a killing blow to a felled Stark, Reed steps in front and stabs at his face with a spear.  The threat is enough to prevent Dayne from delivering the blow, and the distraction enough to give Stark time to recover with Ice and deliver a mortal thrust to Dayne.

I'm inclined towards Reed as the KotLT, though I'm not opposed to Lyanna as a candidate.  The arguments for her are pretty good, I think.

[Phoenix-torn]

Anyone have a page number for Ned's "# of graves dug" I remeber reading it but I can't seem to find it. Thanks.

*Nevermind

Edited by Phoenix-torn, 17 September 2009 - 09:54 PM.

[cravenravenkeeper]

Prince Bran, on Sep 16 2009, 23.38, said:

- and the only ones to ride away from the whole thing are Stark, Reed, and Jon Snow.

Save it for the R+L=J thread :-p

[Prince Bran]

bacchys, on Sep 17 2009, 22.32, said:

I'm not sure how much stock I put in Meera's tale with respect to how much CoF magic Howland Reed has mastered.  When the tale begins, Martin's is a low magic world.  Though not stated directly, it seems reasonable to accept that during Robert's Rebellion magic was at the same level or lower.  So I'm loathe to guess at a magical intervention when more mundane explanations are available and at least as likely.

A net can be a devastating weapon to a swordsman, and a net cast over Dayne as he duels with Stark could well be more than enough to tip the scales in Stark's favour.  Or perhaps as Dayne raises his sword to deliver a killing blow to a felled Stark, Reed steps in front and stabs at his face with a spear.  The threat is enough to prevent Dayne from delivering the blow, and the distraction enough to give Stark time to recover with Ice and deliver a mortal thrust to Dayne.

I'm inclined towards Reed as the KotLT, though I'm not opposed to Lyanna as a candidate.  The arguments for her are pretty good, I think.

Yeah, a net is more plausible than the idea that Reed performs some physical action (i.e. shield bash, shove, sword attack) against Dayne. I mean, the main problem I have with the notion is that, all other things being equal, Dayne should be able to handle Ned and Reed. He's a beast. I mean Jaime L had a man crush on the guy for being the epitome of awesome. Then again, he may have been already injured etc, so it's hard to say.

But I don't think that if Reed used magic there that it had to be some glamorous showing. I would imagine that even what I'd term "lesser" magic would do the trick...like manipulating nature in some subtle way (sand trap etc) to catch the heavily armored Dayne off guard, rather than some sort of overpowered fireball.

Edited by Prince Bran, 17 September 2009 - 11:33 PM.