136 replies to this topic

[3idcrow]

paddydubh, on Sep 17 2009, 05.28, said:

Personally I think he could right a million short stories based on these little things for example Ser Barristans rescue of Aerys from duskendale. Or even an expanded version of the KotLT.

Would any of you guys be interested in doing it? If I weren't an ESL person I would love to take a shot at Harrenhall turney or Summerhall burning or maybe even a sweet and sad romance about the Dragonknight and his Queen... Alas. :cry:

[dragomort]

Prince Bran, on Sep 17 2009, 23.32, said:

Yeah, a net is more plausible than the idea that Reed performs some physical action (i.e. shield bash, shove, sword attack) against Dayne. I mean, the main problem I have with the notion is that, all other things being equal, Dayne should be able to handle Ned and Reed. He's a beast. I mean Jaime L had a man crush on the guy for being the epitome of awesome. Then again, he may have been already injured etc, so it's hard to say.

But I don't think that if Reed used magic there that it had to be some glamorous showing. I would imagine that even what I'd term "lesser" magic would do the trick...like manipulating nature in some subtle way (sand trap etc) to catch the heavily armored Dayne off guard, rather than some sort of overpowered fireball.

Yeah, the land to swamp idea was mainly because I think something like that was explicitly mentioned in describing the types of things he could do by Meera (may not be remembering that correctly though in the first place :o ). Still, while a net is the most likely I don't think it's unfeasible that Dayne was 'Hodored' into or something similar if he saw Ned in imminent danger. Plus, upon hearing of such a scene it could then be used to set up an interesting almost-parallel line with what's going on with Bran at the time... that was likely poorly worded, but I think the thought carries through  :leaving:

Edited by dragomort, 18 September 2009 - 02:16 PM.

[Blackthrone]

Prince Bran, on Sep 18 2009, 00.32, said:

I mean, the main problem I have with the notion is that, all other things being equal, Dayne should be able to handle Ned and Reed. He's a beast. I mean Jaime L had a man crush on the guy for being the epitome of awesome. Then again, he may have been already injured etc, so it's hard to say.

Dayne was good, yes. But even for a very great knight, fighting two men at once is a death sentence. When you have just been fighting several other men and are now facing two different enemies, one armed with a greatsword and one with a spear that outreaches you and a net that you have no effective counter against...

Dayne would probably have lost even if he hadn't already spent most of his energy fighting the others.

[3idcrow]

Other-in-law, on Sep 18 2009, 11.47, said:

No.  GRRM is utterly opposed to people writing fanfic with his creations.

Oh, sorry. I didn't know. My bad...

[Ser Howsmelly]

3idcrow, on Sep 18 2009, 15.24, said:

Oh, sorry. I didn't know. My bad...

be told.

[Prince Bran]

I also like the warg theory. I think it's even more plausible than other sorts of magic, even though I didn't mention it specifically. If he were to warg into Dayne, even for a second, that could radically alter the fight in Ned's favor.

[Ser Selmy]

Personally I like to think it was Lyanna in Howlands place. She had the "wolfblood" as Ned says and she had already beat the three squires with a tourney sword (where did she get it?). The only thing working against this that I can see is the booming voice which the Laughing Tree speaks with. Also Rhaegar is sent to find him but comes back empty handed and then gives Lyanna the crown of blue roses. Maybe this is just my own unfounded fantasy but I will keep it until it is directly defeated by someone who can quote the book accurately.

[Ser Selmy]

Also Lyanna is described as being like Arya... and we all know how brutal she is.

Edited by SirSelmy, 19 September 2009 - 09:51 PM.

[Ninepenny King]

A Wierwood has a face i assume some of the faces Smile. therefore since howland reed was at the isle of faces where if i can remember the children of the forest signed a peace pact........

I have to belive the small in stature mystery knight is one of the children of the forest that howland reed may have met on the isle Who else could be a more obvious choice to choose a  laughing tree as a sigil but the one of children children of the forrest. and ask yourself of all the lords in the kingdom Which lord and what place would be the most likley to be in touch with them? Howland reed and his Hidden Greywater watch....in my eyes

Edited by Ninepenny King, 30 September 2009 - 12:20 AM.

[Rockroi]

Quote

I have to belive the small in stature mystery knight is one of the children of the forest that howland reed may have met on the isle Who else could be a more obvious choice to choose a laughing tree as a sigil but the one of children children of the forrest. and ask yourself of all the lords in the kingdom Which lord and what place would be the most likley to be in touch with them? Howland reed and his Hidden Greywater watch....in my eyes

The problem with this theory- that the KotLT was a child of the forest -is that it has very little to shed light on the story in and of itself.  The theory actually ASKS more question than it answers.  Why the HELL are the CotF fighting in tournaments? Why does Howland have the power to summon them to do his (relatively trivial) business? What happened to this particular CotF after the tourney?  Has Howland summoned other CotF?  Why didn't he summon them to help Ned in KL? Or Robb prior to the Red Wedding?  

The other problems that arise are the incongruity of having the CotF: suddenly a supernatural impression is put on a naturally developing story line.  What was once a story of people is now a story involving magical beings.  I have no problem with magical beings (See Dany's Dragons), but NOT as the answer to a puzzle.  The KotLT is only interesting if it somehow explains or deepens the relationships between characters and ideas that are germane to the story.  To suddenly trump up, "The CotF did it!" makes it sound strangely reminiscent of other (lesser) sci-fi/fantasy works that, in effect, say "And then, MAGIC!" And Scene!  Its almost as bad as listening to a creationist describe how we all got here: "God did it!"

I think that having a pseudo-supernatural being implanted into that story does not do anything for the story; it is actually a disproportionate entity to be an answer to this relatively human question.

[johnnysd]

In my latest re-read I just finished this part. I think the Knight is clearly Lyanna, but one thing that struck me is how much Howland Reed's magic is emphasized. People are very correct in saying that Martin very much shies away from magic being the answer, but at its core A Song of Fire and Ice is largely about magic coming back into the world. I suspect that in the final books there will be more magic than many here are comfortable with as the return of magic reaches its zenith. Having said that, it makes sense for one of the main backstory pieces to feature magic, and I think the event where that happens is when Reed saves Ned against Dayne.

Edited by johnnysd, 05 May 2011 - 03:34 AM.

[DornishHighlander]

I'm a big fan of believing history is cyclical and as far as I'm aware so is GRRM - let me know if I am mistaken.

In that sense I think its interesting that when first introduced to Arya her first of many nicknames is "Horseface" that and the fact she doesn't give a damn about Westerosi gender politics/behavior coupled with Arya assuming a male identity is very close to Lyanna assuing she is KotLT.


Side Bar - With the exception of Robert everyone characterizes Rhaegar as a romantic figure so him being sent to track down the KotLT and finding out it's Lyanna sits more with the notion of his stories & poems. He doesn't seem to be the type of man that will fall in lust with a woman after a small glimpse at a tourney, if he tracked the KotLT down he would of possibly fought then spent time. To me this seems the most Rhaegarish  thing from what we know so far.

I agree full ToJ is one of the more fascinating and I assume central pillars of modern Westerosi Lore.

[extravadanza]

I wanted to bump this thread because this is an area that intrigues me greatly.  I am new to this forum, but you guys are excellent at analyzing these things, that said and after dwd and some choice chapters of wow available, what are the most realistic answers to

who the KOTLT is?
What do the reed children really know??

[Lykos]

@extravadanza
This comes up in most threads involving Lyanna and or Rhaegar.  Here is a recent discussion, it starts at the bottom of the page, but I think post #53 is worth reading too.

[KOM]

I'm all in for Lyanna as KotLT, just bc it makes the story better.

Faking the deep voice seems ok. Lyanna was incredible horserider, so that would translate to skill at the joust.

But, as mentioned above, it leaves room for Rhaegar to find her, or find that L was KotLT, not turn her in, and then later crown her. And doing something like that because they did some knightly stuff and protected the weak, and chivalry blah blah blah, seems like a good way to make a connection as opposed to just "bc she was beautiful" or some more empty reason. It would also give L more motivation for going off w R.

The evidence as is seems open to both Reed and Lyanna though. Not really anything pointing to any of the other Stark kids.

Edited by KOM, 21 February 2013 - 07:42 PM.