136 replies to this topic

[Drogo]

It seems more logical to me that the act of Reed saving Ned has something to do with Reed's specificc cragoman abilities. He has been built up into this semi-mythos character, father of the green seer and warrior woman. Spent a month in the most magical place on Westeros th place most in touch with the old gods. It seems likely to me that everyone is dead except Dayne and ned they are still swirling and dancing  (I think Ice would easily keep Ned alive a lot longer then normal because of its ability to match Dawn blow for blow) and just as Dayne is about to kill Ned Reed reacts much in the same to when he warged Hodor. He reaches out in panic  finds Dayne's mind the shock of this stuns them both and Ned, seeing an advantage, kills Dayne. I'm sure afterwards even Reed can't explain what happened he prolly just says he reached out like when he wargs. I doubt that Reed intentionally forced himself into Dayne since we have seen more expierenced wargers and none except Bran have taken over humans and Bran is special. Just my two cents.

[VorianGR]

Or Howland just got in the way ang got crippled since Ned was sad after he told the tale. Of course he could be sad about killing Arthur Dayne whom he respected a lot it seems.

[Jak o the Shadows]

Happy Ent, on May 15 2008, 08.17, said:

But we have textual evidence! We know that wargs can control people. Even un-educated wargs like Bran, who is (without training) so good that he can puppeteer Hodor! "This is GRRM", as you say, and "in this series" we have people-control.

If Bran can do that, why shouldn't Howland Reed (who spent a winter at the Isle of Faces for crying out loud!) be able to warg into Ser Arthur? Maybe not turn him into a puppet (Arthur isn't Hodor), but just make him miss a parry?

How do we even know he is capable of being a warg? Is there any proof? The Reeds can tell Bran is a warg, but that does not mean that they have the ability in their family at all.

In my opinon he used a net to trip Arthur, and then Ned gave a finishing blow with Ice. But who knows.  :unsure:

Edited by Jak o the Shadows, 15 May 2008 - 09:33 AM.

[Happy Ent]

Lupigis, on May 15 2008, 15.22, said:

Sure, but we also have textual evidence that the crannogmen use poisoned arrows. Not as glamorous, but it's just as possible.

Absolutely. My message was in response to somebody finding the idea that Howland warged into Ser Arthur incompatible with the rest of the books. I say it isn't.

Likewise, Howland using a poisoned arrow would be compatible with the book and shouldn't be discounted.

AHSOIAF said:

we also don't have textual evidence that Howland Reed can warg. I think he probably can, but consider:

neither Jojen nor Meera have warg'd yet.
the ability to warg is considered special; to have the greensight may not be something that can be learned.

These arguments are in favour of Howland being a warg. Jojen and Meera aren't wargs. But they sure know a lot about warging. From where does this knowledge come? (Answer 1: because all Crannogmen know. After all, warging is pretty common among them. Answer 2: because they learned from their father, who is himself a warg. Both answers make it more plausible that Howland is a Warg.)

Drogo said:

Spent a month in the most magical place on Westeros th place most in touch with the old gods.

Correction: he spent a Winter there. That could be many, many years. Remember, he returns in the year of the False Spring. Who knows how long the Winter was?

JotS said:

How do we even know he is capable of being a warg? Is there any proof?

None. It's speculation, known as the "Howland Superwarg" crackpot theory on these boards.

[Happy Ent]

Drogo, on May 15 2008, 16.19, said:

I doubt that Reed intentionally forced himself into Dayne since we have seen more expierenced wargers and none except Bran have taken over humans and Bran is special. Just my two cents.

The standard answer is that it may be very dangerous for the warg. (We have seen what happens to a Wildling warg when his host is killed – we can only speculate about the effects of warging into a human and having him killed.)

Note that uniquely among Ned's loyal bannermen, Howland does not appear when Ned calls his banners. Maybe Howland was "damaged".

[Rockroi]

Wanted to preface this by saying that I firmly believe that Lyanna Stark is the Knight of the Laughing Tree (KotLT).  The books provide only snippits of evidence- enough to make anyone a legitimate suspect.  However, two main ideas come through:
1. There is enough anecdotal evidence to eliminate many, if not all, of the suspects save Lyanna;
2. There is no evidence that eliminates Lyanna.  

What others have said:

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Another thing. When Harwin chases down Arya after she runs away he says "You ride like a Northman, milady. Your aunt, Lady Lyanna, was the same". Later Jaime says that jousting is for the most part good horsemanship.

Jaime also states that much of jousting is luck.   Jorah Mormount says the same thing to Dany, as does Selmy.  The idea of mystery Knights entering tournies is a longstanding tradition in Westeroes.  All of these ideas blend to make Lyanna’s victories in the lists all the more plausible.  

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The fact that the knight refused to unmask him/herself rules out Howland and Benjen, IMO. The knight had to have a reason to remain a mystery. Being a highborn girl who shouldn't be knocking knights off their horses is a reason.

I have often made this statement.  I also think it eliminates Ned, Robert, Rhaegar, etc.  The person would need a reason to stay hidden.  Many have stated that Lady Dayne could have been the KotLT for this reason.  I think she could have been, but that she was not.  This stems from Meera and her brother’s SHOCK at Bran not knowing the KotLT story.  They ask three times if he is SURE Ned did not share the story with him.  Why?  Most likely because the story is a deep link with Lyanna, a woman Ned loved.  (The reason Ned did not tell Bran the story was most likely because that would create a link between Lyanna and Rhaegar- something Ned did not want to do, most likely because Lyanna and Rahegar are Jon’s parents).  If the KotLT had been Ashara Dayne, there is no reason for the children to be surprised that Bran has not heard a story about a woman their father once had a thing for before he married Cat.  

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It is said, Aerys sent out Prince Rhaegar to unmask the knight, so it's likely that he was Lyanna. If he found her, it would mark the start of their relationship.

This is my “If after this than therefore because of thisâ€� argument and I stand by it.  Rhaegar and Lyanna HAD to meet at some point.  Its well established that the Starks did not go South and the Targs did not leave the South very often.  When did he have time to 1) meet Lyanna, 2) be impressed by her, and 3) fall in love?  Its possible that he just saw her at harrenhal and that was that.  However, he was specifically charged with finding the KotLT and I firmly believe that he DID find her.  And it was Lyanna and that was that.

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Benjen could have a good reason not to, as well. He's pretty young at that point (can't remember if he's older or younger than Lyanna), but I believe around 15? in any case, not really old enough to be in the lists.

Again, why would Benjen keep himself a secret?  15 is not that young.  I think that Benjen would also have stayed in the lists.  But I think there is another reason that points away from Benjen and towards Lyanna.  

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first of all, I don't think Ned would have ordered Howland Reed, possibly he closest friend in the whole world, to do anything. he would have trusted Howland to do the right thing, and he probably considered Howland's judgment at least as good as his own.

And yet HR goes South (an area he has NEVER been to) to search for Lyanna Stark.  Why?  Maybe it was because Lyanna had ghelped HR so much at harrenhal- not just scattering the squires with a tourney sword, but possibly in actually fighting Howland’s battle on the field.  

Again, I think all signs point to Lyanna.  I think it’s a matter of uncovering the remaining evidence.

[Happy Ent]

Other-in-law, on May 15 2008, 17.52, said:

That's not because they, too, were injured while warging into Arthur Dayne, [...]

Now, now, you aren't trying to be snarky, are you?

Good points, I will retract that argument and vow to never use it again.

(Until A Waltz with Wargs finally hits the shelves in 2012, and we'll see Howland the Vegetable and I'll be vindicated!)

[back_packn]

Other-in-law, on May 15 2008, 11.52, said:

I wouldn't read too much into that.  

When Jojen and Meera showed up at Winterfell, Maester Luwin said 'this is most unexpected'.  

That's not because they, too, were injured while warging into Arthur Dayne, but simply because they're crannogmen.  Howland actively going on campaign with Ned would be the exception rather than the rule, I'd say.

But yet he DID feel it neccesary to send his children, while he himself, a "great friend" of Ned's stays absent.   There must be a reason he sent his kids rather than show up himself.

[Jimbeezee]

back_packn, on May 15 2008, 12.57, said:

But yet he DID feel it neccesary to send his children, while he himself, a "great friend" of Ned's stays absent.   There must be a reason he sent his kids rather than show up himself.

When Robb met with Catelyn on his march south, didn't he tell her that the crannogmen were going to stay in and hold the Neck against the enemies?

[Rockroi]

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Until A Waltz with Wargs finally hits the shelves in 2012

Wishful thinking.  At this rate, 2020 at the earliest.

[Prince of the North]

Lady Blackfish, on May 14 2008, 18.15, said:

Definitely at least 20!  He was 20 when he fought Littlefinger. /nitpick

Ned surviving the Rebellion without Ice doesn't necessarily mean that he was any sort of great swordsman.  I imagine plenty of men of varying skills survived regardless.  Though it's true that Ned might have been more of a target, much like Robb was specifically targeted by Jaime Lannister in battle, he'd similarly possibly have a guard ensuring his survival.  The best man winning happens more in controlled environments like tournaments but I think in war things are so much more chancy and multivariable.  So yeah Ned was maybe at least a competent swordsman, but not necessarily anything more.  Sansa recalls Bronze Yohn soundly defeating him at swordplay at Winterfell, and of course GRRM has said that Brandon was the swordsman of the family, Ned's forte was strategy.

Oops!  I was thinking Brandon was 19 at that time.  At any rate, Rickard was probably in his 40s then and still emminently capable of wielding Ice and, thus, probably hadn't given it to Brandon (that was the point I was trying to make).

I agree with everything you said 100%!  I don't think Ned was a great swordsman but I do think he was adequate.  Having Ice at the ToJ would undoubtedly help (duh!) but I don't really see how he could have had it throughout the Rebellion.  So, I guess he pobably only had a regular ol' sword during the Rebellion but he probably didn't see that much active swordplay anyway since he was the commander.

[José Luis Czarlavert]

Happy Ent, on May 15 2008, 17.55, said:

The standard answer is that it may be very dangerous for the warg. (We have seen what happens to a Wildling warg when his host is killed – we can only speculate about the effects of warging into a human and having him killed.)

Note that uniquely among Ned's loyal bannermen, Howland does not appear when Ned calls his banners. Maybe Howland was "damaged".

IIRC the northern clans didn´t come either.

[Ran]

The mountain clans did appear, some of them. Roose Bolton notes spearmen from the mountains among those men he left behind at the ford of the Trident (to get slaughtered, naturally), and Burleys and Norreys are explicitly mentioned just before that.

ETA: As to Ice, I suspect Lord Rickard had left it in Winterfell before coming south (for, I believe, Brandon's wedding), and Ned retrieved it when he went North as the Lord of Winterfell.

Edited by Ran, 15 May 2008 - 05:52 PM.

[Dieb]

Rockroi, on May 15 2008, 09.13, said:

Again, why would Benjen keep himself a secret?  15 is not that young.  I think that Benjen would also have stayed in the lists.  But I think there is another reason that points away from Benjen and towards Lyanna.

Errr, you're ignoring what I said next.  I'll quote from ASOS (pg 342 in the paperback edition):  "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his."

So...would you stay in the lists, and risked unmasking, after the Mad King said this?  Sure, he hadn't killed Brandon and Rickard yet, still at this late date I'd bet people would be smart enough not to risk his displeasure.

Nonetheless, this is kinda a stupid argument, because I concede that Lyanna is most likely tKotLT.  I just don't like that particular argument in favor.

[telobsidion]

Why are people saying Benjen was 15? He was the youngest, and Lyanna was 16 when she died, and I'm pretty sure that she was probably 15 during this tourney. I've seen discussion on this before. Benjen was probably between 12 to 14.

[Prince of the North]

Ran, on May 15 2008, 17.51, said:

...
ETA: As to Ice, I suspect Lord Rickard had left it in Winterfell before coming south (for, I believe, Brandon's wedding), and Ned retrieved it when he went North as the Lord of Winterfell.

Oh, thanks Ran!  I hadn't considered that but wouldn't Rickard basically have the sword with him whenever he traveled?  I mean, of course he had no expectation of trouble at Riverrun but he had to get there (though he was well protected, I'm sure).  Also, we see countless instances where men are armed even though they have no reason to expect trouble.  Especially with the Valyrian steel weapons - they may be worn as a sort of status symbol or House heirloom even at the most relaxed of times (Tywin was pretty crazy for one).

Anyway, this all started because I was wondering if Ned had Ice at the ToJ and, no matter how long he had it before that, we can be pretty confident that he did.  Thus, I think it would greatly aid Ned's battle with Arthur and perhaps one good blow with Ice was what Howland allowed him by doing whatever he did?  :dunno:

[Ealasaid]

Lord Varys, on May 11 2008, 17.53, said:

It is said, Aerys sent out Prince Rhaegar to unmask the knight, so it's likely that he was Lyanna. If he found her, it would mark the start of their relationship.

I assume that Howland Reed killed Arthur Dayne by using poison.

First note is interesting.  But I still think Howland Reed was the KotKT

Fie.  Howland Reed using poison!  Can't go there with you on that. I cannot imagine Ned would have a good friend who would use poison on the greatest knight then alive.