144 replies to this topic

[Sloanzilla]

Given Highgarden's location between Old Town and Lannisport and the xroads to King's landing, its location along one of the realm's two largest rivers and the very fact that one of the two wealthiest families in the realms live there- I would assume that it did have some population base. Well, it's Martin's world, but let's just say that based on the facts we know at this time it would be a logical spot for a decent sized town to grow.

Having most of the population centers be along the eastern seaboard makes total sense. Having the Reach and the Riverlands be "breadbasket" areas is also very logical.

I've always felt Martin's one geographic mistake was not having the Iron Islands be larger. The descriptions we read indicate a certain degree of barrenness- and they are so tiny compared to even the nearby coastline. But that's an argument that doesn't really belong in this thread. Crete was a power in the ancient world, I suppose, though that was in a smaller theater.

[Memory Lane]

Keep in mind that the Iron Islands presumably get a lot of their food (possibly even a majority of it) from the sea, and the farming they do is presumably done by Thralls (under ideal circumstances). Considering that, I'm guessing much of the Iron Islands' strength probably comes from the fact that they can basically send almost every able-bodied men to sea if they have to (as long as they can keep the Thralls under their thumb), and that there's a pretty strong martial tradition among the Iron Men. They don't have to keep a lot of their male population on the farms.

You know, that makes me wonder - just how analogous are the Iron Islands to, say, the Vikings or other Northern European raiding cultures? The Iron Men seem somewhat misogynistic, but if you look at Viking women, for example, they had a lot of rights by European standards.

Feel free to correct me if I'm totally, completely wrong on this in any way, Ran.  :thumbsup:

Edited by Guardsman Bass, 18 December 2008 - 02:39 AM.

[Horza]

The Vikings didn't worship Cthulhu.

[Memory Lane]

There's that.  :P

[PSHorton]

In general,an army of that era consisted of knights, lesser mounted soldiers they supported and as many peasants as they could spare or want. Levies would outnumber men at arms ten to one. Crossbow and trained infantry were almost always mercenaries

[PSHorton]

Also, the French at agincourt supposedly fielded sixty thousand, mostly levies. Remember that the reach is probably the size of France and the center of westerosi chivalry. I think Robb gathered in a hurry, and there are clearly still troops left up north

[Black Crow]

PSHorton, on 18 September 2011 - 03:01 AM, said:

Also, the French at agincourt supposedly fielded sixty thousand, mostly levies. Remember that the reach is probably the size of France and the center of westerosi chivalry. I think Robb gathered in a hurry, and there are clearly still troops left up north

Nah, current thinking is around 9-10,000 and all either cavalry or professional foot soldiers. "Peasant levies" are pretty largely a myth.

[PSHorton]

I call bs. Its well documented that the French had major issues with Flemish professional infantry and were unaccustomed to facing such forces. At least in France,infantry were totally overlooked and untrained

[Black Crow]

PSHorton, on 19 September 2011 - 10:11 PM, said:

I call bs. Its well documented that the French had major issues with Flemish professional infantry and were unaccustomed to facing such forces. At least in France,infantry were totally overlooked and untrained

Which is why they hired Italian mercenaries to back up the cavalry forming the major part of their armies and didn't bother with useless peasant levies.

[PSHorton]

Black Crow, on 20 September 2011 - 01:04 AM, said:

Which is why they hired Italian mercenaries to back up the cavalry forming the major part of their armies and didn't bother with useless peasant levies.

Yes genoese crossbowmen, not infantry.

[Black Crow]

Uh... crossbowmen are infantrymen armed with crossbows.

French armies were basically made up of cavalry, with mercenary crossbowmen (professional infantry soldiers)  to provide fire support, and weren't inflated to biblical numbers by rounding up peasant levies

[PSHorton]

Yes I'm aware that crossbowmen are infantry but you and I both know thats not what we're talking about. For a good example, see the battle of Najera

[ibby123]

hnv, on 05 June 2008 - 04:31 AM, said:

if it realy means raising every able man (like WW2 mobilistion) then one could raise a huge host of kings landing or oldtown

but it still superising that  robb couldn't raise more then 20,000 from a big place liek the north (not that populated but I sitll think an area like that could hold a 40k host)
the riverland for a populated area that it is couldnt gather one bigger then 20k aswell but a desolated desert like dorne could raise 50k...odd

from the book it implied the size of each region host:
the north-20k
riverland-15k-20k (later on turned to 12k)
the westland-35k +
the stormlands-unknown thought to be the size of 30k (seeing the size of renly army and later on stannis host)
the reach-up to 80k (could be even higher)
dorne-50k
the vale-unknown I would assume around 30k

the north has the same population as the stormlands and 2/5 the population of the reach. The Riverlands has a higher population than the north. Dorne is the least populated region in all of westoros that has been said alot in the books but they still can rasie an army of 50k that must be all their power ,

[Black Crow]

PSHorton, on 20 September 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Yes I'm aware that crossbowmen are infantry but you and I both know thats not what we're talking about. For a good example, see the battle of Najera

Navarrete presents two problems for your argument; in the first place its the old story of biblical numbers which couldn't be supported either by the population base of the Iberian kingdoms, or by the logistical support available to mediaeval armies, and secondly all those spearmen, even is we reduce them to a more manageable 6,000 rather than 60,000, are Spanish not French.

A far more typical illustration of a French army is provided by a 1364 muster of the troops belonging to the Duchy of Burgundy (the original French one before it expanded):

The troops comprised one chevalier banneret - in Westerosi terms a sworn bannerman

134 chevaliers/knights

105 ecuyers/squires

19 mounted archers

1 trumpeter

1 farrier

The only infantry were those 19 archers who rode horses to keep up with the rest on the march but dismounted to shoot.

In terms of how this lot were made up they don't actually sound too far removed from some of the southern Westerosi houses, but the northern contingents described in the mustering of Robb's forces in AGoT are much more like Scots armies. I did discuss these in an earlier thread which I can't now find but will do so again later after I get back from work.

[Cotter_Pyke]

Excluding the arriere ban i assume??

Edited by Cotter_Pyke, 23 September 2011 - 03:30 AM.

[Black Crow]

Indeed, but you have to remember that the Arriere Ban was called out in absolute extremis for local defence, or used as a labour force for fixing roads and bridges, digging trenches etc. Nobody ever had daft notions of marching them off to war and expecting them to stand in the battle line. As I seem to remember posting on that other thread which i can't find, its also a balancing act with logistics. If you bulk out those 250 proper soldiers following Burgundy's banner with a gang of peasant levies, you're going to have to feed them and at the end of the day they're either going to get themselves killed because they're useless, or they're going to run away and so get you killed; and then even if by some happy chance you get home again there you are facing the harvest, the spring sowing and all the other labour intensive toil that keeps your land going and half of your workforce are either pushing up daisies or otherwise long gone. Far better to save the money you'd spend feeding and equipping all those useless mouths on hiring a few more sellswords.

Which brings me, as promised to the Scots mediaeval and early modern armies which sound so like GRRM's northerners. When Robb Stark is mustering his banners we're told that the Karstarks comprise 300 horse and 2,000 infantry, who all appear to be pikemen, which is certainly consistent.

Aside from the immediate retinues of those who cared to maintain them, the Scots relied for national defence on what was known as the fencible system. In theory all men between the traditional ages of 16 and 60 were liable for 40 days military service if demanded, but in practice each Sheriffdom was obliged to hold periodic wapinschaws (weapon-showings) where everybody was supposed to turn up and be assessed. At this point all the halt, lame and otherwise infirm were weeded out, together with other exempt categories such as priests and married men with families. Once the available male population had thus been whittled down according to the judgement of the worthies overseeing the process, a roll would be compiled of those actually fit for service. Should they then be required to actually muster men to go off to war it was then customary to take one man in four or one man in eight from that roll. The rest stayed at home, but if necessary could be mustered again and another levy made, either to provide reinforcements/replacements for the original draft or to meet another quite different threat.

The obligation for 40 days service was also less straightforward than it first appears in so far as when they were first levied they were to be provided locally with 40 days pay and provisions (largely contributed by those staying at home to look after farms, mills and everyday life). Once the 40 days were up they were not automatically entitled to turn around and go home again, but if they were to be retained in service beyond that time responsibility for paying and provisioning passed to the Crown.

What this basically means in Westerosi terms is that the various levies who marched south with Robb Stark and his bannermen represented the "ordinary" strength of the northern lords, but if further levies were required to march after them it would be possible to find them providing the weapons could be procured to arm them all. The caveat would have to be entered though that all the keen and enthusiastic ones will have gone out with the first levy.

[Daeron Targaryen]

Uhm, as for Dorne, Prince Doran himself says that the 50k spears figure is false; the Young Dragon made it up to make himself look more powerful, and the Martells have seen useful to let the rest of Westeros believe it; but their real strength is much lower.

[SeanF]

Black Crow, on 19 September 2011 - 01:56 PM, said:

Nah, current thinking is around 9-10,000 and all either cavalry or professional foot soldiers. "Peasant levies" are pretty largely a myth.

Anne Curry gives 9-10,000, but Juliet Barker sticks to 20-30,000 at Agincourt.  6,000 for the English seems pretty well-documented.

I don't think the peasant levy was a myth.  At the end of the battle of Crecy, the English cavalry did immense damage among the French peasant infantry.  But, there's no doubt that c.1350, the French knights and men-at-arms thoroughly despised their infantry (other than specialist mercenaries) and saw no use for them.  This was in complete contrast to their English, Scottish, and Flemish counterparts, who'd all learned to command, and fight alongside, infantry.

On topic, it's not entirely clear how forces are recruited at Westeros.  Clearly, Lords, Knights, and Squires are expected to fight, and doubtless many of them have retinues of more or less professional soldiers.  Clearly too, there are a considerable number of professional soldiers for hire, like Bronn, or the various free companies.  I don't know to what extent the smallfolk are conscripted, or hired, to fight, over and above that, Nor do I know if the Knights regard the infantry as a useful part of the army, or simply as a nuisance.

Armies seem to be large by medieval standards, but then each of the great lords is ruling over lands as extensive as a medieval kingdom,

[Black Crow]

As you'll have gathered I'm with Curry on this one.

As to the peasants, I'm still with the myth in so far as I don't believe that anybody was silly enough to pack them into the battle-line. As I said in my last: "the Arriere Ban was called out in absolute extremis for local defence, or used as a labour force for fixing roads and bridges, digging trenches etc. Nobody ever had daft notions of marching them off to war and expecting them to stand in the battle line." Its worth remembering that when Wallenstein, admittedly in extremis, actually tried this at Lutzen, they promptly bolted and nearly lost him the battle - or arguably lost him the battle given that it was still a draw by nightfall and could have been an Imperial victory on the following day if he had held his nerve.

[Cotter_Pyke]

Didn't the arriere ban also include civic militias?? I'm not completely sure??

If properly used these militias could be extremely dangerous