Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"

[Old Pate]

In ASOS, Bran meets a mysterious character, whom he supposes to be of the Liddle house. Bran takes him for a Liddle only because the pinecone clasp on his squirrelskin cloak is reminiscent of the Liddle's coat of arms. Something tells me there's more to this character. Sure, he could be a Liddle, but the fact that we don't know for sure just makes the reader more curious about his identity.

He knows an awful lot about the goings-on of the Watch, as well as the forces on [i]this[/i] side of the wall.

He twice refers to his mother, who died nine years ago. (An unimportant detail?)

Bran promises himself that when the Starks return to Winterfell again, he will send a generous reward to the Liddles for the hospitality shown by this man.

Most tantalizingly, he looks at Bran and Summer when he mentions that the Bastard of Bolton has offered a reward for word of "certain other walking dead." Does he know who Bran is, despite reports that Bran and Rickon were slain?

Martin seems to be fond of coincidental meetings or near meetings of characters who do not appear to recognize each other. That's the sort of irony that seems to be in play in this passage. I suspect we will meet this character again.

Any guesses who he might be, or why Martin introduced this mysterious character at this particular point?

(You can find the passage on pp.276-77 in the hardback.)

[Black Dread]

That's an intersting one, actually. Wondered about it myself.

I think we can safely say (although in Westeros you can never be sure) that "the Liddle" is an important character, not just a side character to participate only in this short scene. Who is he? My guess is as good as anyone's. Who knows? but I believe he knew Bran (a crippled boy with a very big man - Hodor - is quite easy to know, if you know what to look for), and I think he was on their side - he helped them and warned them, and I'm quite sure he didn't betray them later.

More than that I cannot say for sure. I'd be interested to know what other people think.

[Knight o' Pansies]

Well, he obviously knows who Bran is.

Seems his cloak clasp is bronze and gold, so he's not a simple peasant.
He seems to be indeed very well informed both on what goes in the north, riverlands and the wall.

I don't think there's more than this possible Liddle clasp to identify him as someone we've already met. He could be going for help or running away too, what with the Boltons and Ironmen rampaging across the north, wildlings attacking and all.

[DocBean]

was he the same guy that Ygritte killed before Jon ran from the Wildlings?
I wondered that during a reread, but didn't remember their discriptions.

During my first read I thought he was following Bran the whole time, but I have no idea who he is.

[PuroGeo]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1392903' date='Jun 10 2008, 16.40']was he the same guy that Ygritte killed before Jon ran from the Wildlings?
I wondered that during a reread, but didn't remember their discriptions.

During my first read I thought he was following Bran the whole time, but I have no idea who he is.[/quote

I thought he was the same guy the Wildlings killed also.

[delete this account pls]

[quote name='Old Pate' post='1371065' date='May 27 2008, 02.34']In ASOS, Bran meets a mysterious character, whom he supposes to be of the Liddle house. Bran takes him for a Liddle only because the pinecone clasp on his squirrelskin cloak is reminiscent of the Liddle's coat of arms. Something tells me there's more to this character. Sure, he could be a Liddle, but the fact that we don't know for sure just makes the reader more curious about his identity.

He knows an awful lot about the goings-on of the Watch, as well as the forces on [i]this[/i] side of the wall.

He twice refers to his mother, who died nine years ago. (An unimportant detail?)

Bran promises himself that when the Starks return to Winterfell again, he will send a generous reward to the Liddles for the hospitality shown by this man.

Most tantalizingly, he looks at Bran and Summer when he mentions that the Bastard of Bolton has offered a reward for word of "certain other walking dead." Does he know who Bran is, despite reports that Bran and Rickon were slain?

Martin seems to be fond of coincidental meetings or near meetings of characters who do not appear to recognize each other. That's the sort of irony that seems to be in play in this passage. I suspect we will meet this character again.

Any guesses who he might be, or why Martin introduced this mysterious character at this particular point?

(You can find the passage on pp.276-77 in the hardback.)[/quote]

I always thought he might have been THE Liddle, as in the Lord of Liddle, or one of his close kin.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Brady' post='1393169' date='Jun 10 2008, 22.08']I always thought he might have been THE Liddle, as in the Lord of Liddle, or one of his close kin.[/quote]
Whose first name is Torren, according to the aFfC appendix. I'm inclined to agree; the mountain clans are probably much less wealthy than lowland northern houses, so a partly gold brooch makes me think he's a close relative of Torren Liddle, if not the very same man. Distant cousins might have little or no jewelry.

[Old Pate]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1392903' date='Jun 10 2008, 15.40']was he the same guy that Ygritte killed before Jon ran from the Wildlings?
I wondered that during a reread, but didn't remember their discriptions.[/quote]

The man Ygritte killed was described repeatedly as an "old man", and he had a horse. I don't recall either of those applying to the guy that Bran met.

It is interesting though that you bring up this old man. It seems that there are several mysterious characters wandering about in the North by themselves. We've got the "old man," and the "Liddle," and then on the other side of the wall we've got the guy with black hands who rides the stag (I had totally forgotten about him until rereading recently). And then somewhere out there is Benjen Stark . . .

[Mezeh]

We don’t know much about Liddles and other mountain clans yet I agree that the man Bran encountered wasn’t a simple peasant. And this isn’t just his cloak with clan’s sigil but rather his talk. Simple peasant wouldn’t know anything about the game of thrones and wouldn’t be so knowledgeable about politicks as well. So he was either leader of the clan or some close relative or maybe some other important man for sure.

[Old Pate]

[quote name='Mezeh' post='1393472' date='Jun 11 2008, 02.08']We don’t know much about Liddles and other mountain clans yet I agree that the man Bran encountered wasn’t a simple peasant. And this isn’t just his cloak with clan’s sigil but rather his talk. Simple peasant wouldn’t know anything about the game of thrones and wouldn’t be so knowledgeable about politicks as well. So he was either leader of the clan or some close relative or maybe some other important man for sure.[/quote]

I agree that he is probably not a simple peasant. But I'm not sure that he's necessarily a Liddle. In fact, if you can follow this logic, the fact that Bran[i] thinks[/i] he is a Liddle might mean that he is actually NOT. The narrative suggests that he is a Liddle but at the same time creates a lot of uncertainty and an anticipation of future events related to the character, so we can EXPECT to be surprised. If he were to turn out to be a Liddle, we would not be surprised ... so he must not be a Liddle!

To illustrate the point, imagine if the Young Wolf, after winning every battle he fought, actually succeeded in defeating the Lannisters and claiming the whole kingdom. That would have been simply a fulfillment of anticipated events and would not have been surprising enough to be an interesting story. Interesting stories work by creating expectations and then surprising us.

[Blackstone]

I think that it was The Liddle, not just a Liddle.

[Szar]

[quote name='Old Pate' post='1393772' date='Jun 11 2008, 16.11']I agree that he is probably not a simple peasant. But I'm not sure that he's necessarily a Liddle. In fact, if you can follow this logic, the fact that Bran[i] thinks[/i] he is a Liddle might mean that he is actually NOT. The narrative suggests that he is a Liddle but at the same time creates a lot of uncertainty and an anticipation of future events related to the character, so we can EXPECT to be surprised. If he were to turn out to be a Liddle, we would not be surprised ... so he must not be a Liddle!

To illustrate the point, imagine if the Young Wolf, after winning every battle he fought, actually succeeded in defeating the Lannisters and claiming the whole kingdom. That would have been simply a fulfillment of anticipated events and would not have been surprising enough to be an interesting story. Interesting stories work by creating expectations and then surprising us.[/quote]

Twists for the sake of twists are pointless.

[Bronn Stone]

SPOILER: From BwB trivia contest

At one of the BwB trivia contests, GRRM asked something along the lines of "On his journey toward the Wall, Bran encounters a member of which Mountain Clan house"?

The correct answer was "Liddle"

Confirmation as far as I am concerned.

[Frog Eater]

[quote name='Szar' post='1394086' date='Jun 11 2008, 13.26']Twists for the sake of twists are pointless.[/quote]

I was going to post something similar earlier, but I read my own post and it sounded snarky. Yours is much better. Not near as negative. Well said.

[Old Pate]

[quote name='Szar' post='1394086' date='Jun 11 2008, 12.26']Twists for the sake of twists are pointless.[/quote]

Quite right. I did not mean to suggest that Martin (or any author) merely wants to surprise us, without some larger narrative plan. Nor do I think that every expectation has to be frustrated for the story to be interesting. But when our expectations are fulfilled, a good author will fulfill them only partially or in a modified way. I am drawing upon the literary theory of Wolfgang Iser. He goes so far as to say that "Expectations are scarcely ever fulfilled in truly literary texts." The frustration of expectations is what creates tension and ultimately satisfaction in reading. And it is the WAY we are surprised that is important, not simply that we are surprised.

Concerning the Liddle, I am simply suggesting that he MIGHT not be a Liddle, and if he does turn out to be a Liddle (if and when we meet him again), there will be something surprising about his reappearance.

Of course, there is also always the possibility that this character is just a narrative device used to show us Bran receiving some information about events in the North and beyond the wall. Maybe we'll never see or hear from this character again. But I think we will.

[DocBean]

[quote name='Cristiano Bronnaldo' post='1394097' date='Jun 11 2008, 12.33']

SPOILER: From BwB trivia contest

At one of the BwB trivia contests, GRRM asked something along the lines of "On his journey toward the Wall, Bran encounters a member of which Mountain Clan house"?

The correct answer was "Liddle"

Confirmation as far as I am concerned.

[/quote]


something along the lines of...
there is something very wrong with using that as a precursor to an author quote and calling it confirmation.

he could have said "On his journey toward the Wall, Bran encounters a member of what he believes to be this Mountain Clan house."

However, I am in agreement that he probably is a Little.

[Ironwill]

At the time I just got the feeling that the Liddle was a way of giving us (the readers) a look at what was going on in the North. From ACOK onward we are given only second hand accounts on what is going on up there. So here is a well informed native giving his two cents on how crappy things have become without the Starks around.

The only other outcome I could see is maybe this Liddle goes forth and tells the mountain clans that Bran is alive and to hold out against the Ironborn and Boltons until the Starks return. After all Jojen's parting words were pretty persuasive...

[Old Pate]

[quote name='Ironwill' post='1394324' date='Jun 11 2008, 14.34']The only other outcome I could see is maybe this Liddle goes forth and tells the mountain clans that Bran is alive and to hold out against the Ironborn and Boltons until the Starks return. After all Jojen's parting words were pretty persuasive...[/quote]

That's an interesting idea. So, it's set up like a scene in which Bran is getting information from the stranger (which he is, some ...), but it could turn out more importantly to be a scene in which the Liddle is getting information . . . namely that Bran is alive. If he does play a role in rallying the clans of the North, then our expectation that Bran will one day get a chance to thank the Liddles will be fulfilled, but (surprisingly) he will not be thanking him just for the tasty bread but for helping to restore the Starks to Winterfell.

The theory fits with the way the Liddle reminisces about "when there was a Stark in Winterfell." On the surface, he is grieving for the absence of the Winterfell, but it could also be a bit of foreshadowing of the part that he will play in events to come.

I guess we'll see.

[Drogo]

[quote name='Old Pate' post='1394357' date='Jun 11 2008, 15.00']The theory fits with the way the Liddle reminisces about "when there was a Stark in Winterfell." On the surface, he is grieving for the absence of the Winterfell, but it could also be a bit of foreshadowing of the part that he will play in events to come.[/quote]
This idea about the North being in chaos without a Stark leader is new to me and frankly quite pleasing. It would add kind of an Aragorn twist to the story, only a Stark can truly control the wild North and to be frank it really seems that way. People claim that Ned's honor brought him death in the South but when you think about it honor has been killing Starks in the south for years. Brandon, gallops off to King's Landing for his sister's honor Rickard gallops off after Brandon for his family's honor. Maybe there is something behind this, I mean you never hear of rebellions in the North cept for Greyjoy and Bolton. It adds another aspect to the whole Ice and Fire balance the fiery south is filled with intrigue and lies while the North is led solely by the most honorable man who is always a Stark. Maybe the reasons the Starks rule the North is because the Children of the Forest made some kind of pact with them for as long as they rule the North it will be safe. I dunno just another idea.

[Ender]

I'd tend to agree with the most recent point, that if he has a further role to play, it will be with regards to informing/leading/what have you Stark loyalists.

Also consider that the exact timing of Littlefinger's plans are unclear, but given that he supposedly wishes Sansa to lay claim to the North, both the house(s) hosting Osha and Rickon, and the Liddle Bran met could find themselves standing in LF's way.

My gut tells me the Stark succession is going to get a bit messy. Rickon is the most easily used, Jon currently the strongest political and military figure of the candidates and perhaps even the most Ned-like, Sansa would have both the Vale and the Riverlands behind her if LF's plan works as he told Sansa (which, to be sure, is almost certainly not exactly what he has planned), and her claim is bolstered by the fact that Bran and Rickon are believed to be dead. Meanwhile, Bran is the Lord/King Stark by virtue of birthright/Robb's death. Different factions in the North could support any of the four candidates depending on their own personal interests, and it may very well require the Liddle Bran met to step forward and say, "Wait a minute! Bran isn't dead!" to make sure he isn't overlooked, particularly because it looks as if he's going to be the furthest "out of sight" as the Long Winter grows longer.