Mysterious Character: "the Liddle"

[Gendels Children]

^^ the alive and kicking thing was not meant to be a mean pun, it was simply bad choice in word^^ oops :blushing:

[JLE]

I think it's most likely that the Mountain Clans are a neglected resource, but by no means stupid. And some of them, certainly among the larger clans, may have ambition to be recognised as Houses in their own right. People like the Flints, Liddles, Wulls and Norreys could well earn that recognition, or aspire to it.

A social climber does his best to learn from the class he aspires to: if the upper class keep abreast of world-events beyond their own domain, then anyone aspiring to join them needs to also have that knowledge. If the upper classes are known for a certain degree of politeness, then so must anyone who aspires to join them. And some of them may already be looking for a better "model" among the upper classes than their actual nearest "nobleman of the North", the boorish GreatJon Umber: they can't ALL be fierce but loyal roaring barbarians. No doubt the Liddles have already been sufficiently acquainted with Ned - and indeed with Robb: there were mountain clan names given in passing in some of the battles fought by the Starks. This would also be why Jon knows of them. Quite possibly "The Ned" was the first leader in generations to pay them much attention.

And, no doubt, Bolton would have done his best to get the message to any old followers of the Starks, that he wants to know the whereabouts of the missing Stark heirs. And the clans being probably Stark loyalists, someone in there would have the intelligence to work out that he might not mean them well, since Winterfell was sacked.

I agree with the sentiment, that it was probably an *important* Liddle that Bran encountered - either the actual clan leader or a close kinsman.

Which also implies that, eventually, at some point, if he survives the battle with the Boltons (and the clans may be waiting on the result of that battle to decide whether he is worth following), Stannis will also learn of Bran's survival.

[Har!]

I suspect we meet w the Liddle for a couple reasons:

1) It gives us insight as to the wisdom of Jojen insisting they take the long way 'round to get to the wall. The reader could have been wondering if Jojen was overreacting or not.

2) to show us the source of future knowledge - particularly among the clans - that Eddard Stark's sons still live. This will make them all the more likely to oppose the Boltons and hence explain why they embrace a southern lord like Stannis, esp. when you consider that they also know that the Boltons are hunting the Starks. Starks live = support for Stannis

3) also provides explanation for a greater northern conspiracy against the Boltons apart from explicit support for Stannis. Whoresbane Umber, the Cerwyns, Hornwoods, perhaps even a branch of the Ryswells - Roose is suspicious of them all despite their having pledged themselves. As he says to Ramsey, what will we do when (not if) a Stark boy emerges. Lady Dustin notes that the northmen fear Roose but loved the Starks. Starks live = willingness to embrace treachery against Boltons

So even if we never see the Liddle again, his appearance was very important for the reader in order to provide the mechanism/explanation for future northmen's motivations and actions.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Is it possible he's the Hooded Man? Or am I missing something big?

I skimmed the whole thread to find the first person to make the connection :) I'm convinced he is the Hooded Man.

[Har!]

I skimmed the whole thread to find the first person to make the connection :) I'm convinced he is the Hooded Man.

why? i am curious, what has you convinced?

[redriver]

I suspect we meet w the Liddle for a couple reasons:

1) It gives us insight as to the wisdom of Jojen insisting they take the long way 'round to get to the wall. The reader could have been wondering if Jojen was overreacting or not.

2) to show us the source of future knowledge - particularly among the clans - that Eddard Stark's sons still live. This will make them all the more likely to oppose the Boltons and hence explain why they embrace a southern lord like Stannis, esp. when you consider that they also know that the Boltons are hunting the Starks. Starks live = support for Stannis

3) also provides explanation for a greater northern conspiracy against the Boltons apart from explicit support for Stannis. Whoresbane Umber, the Cerwyns, Hornwoods, perhaps even a branch of the Ryswells - Roose is suspicious of them all despite their having pledged themselves. As he says to Ramsey, what will we do when (not if) a Stark boy emerges. Lady Dustin notes that the northmen fear Roose but loved the Starks. Starks live = willingness to embrace treachery against Boltons

So even if we never see the Liddle again, his appearance was very important for the reader in order to provide the mechanism/explanation for future northmen's motivations and actions.

There is a strange aspect to this meeting.The Liddle is neither introduced nor described physically.(Nor is the HM :dunno: ).

But it's also a bit weird that even though he knows who they are,and we later learn from the clansmen in the Stannis camp how ardent their support for the Starks is,he doesn't offer shelter,sanctuary or any real advice.I can't really explain this,unless we wander into crackpot territory.

[bemused]

redriver..you, a scion of the land of my own forbears.. are you calling my favourite Benjen theory crackpot ?!?! :D..I'm crushed.

It does go a long way to explaining Torren's arm's length behavior...and how the clans can come together under one plan instead of multiple plans of their own.

[King Tyrion VIII]

redriver..you, a scion of the land of my own forbears.. are you calling my favourite Benjen theory crackpot ?!?! :D..I'm crushed.

It does go a long way to explaining Torren's arm's length behavior...and how the clans can come together under one plan instead of multiple plans of their own.

Wait, Benjen is that Liddle? I have to read your theory now :)

[bemused]

:D Rascal.

No.

[King Tyrion VIII]

:D Rascal.

No.

You might be right. And how would I know if you are if you don't tell me?

[Raion Laion]

Something about Benjen being inside Winterfell after all the "he went up north and never got back" setup makes me doubt this idea very hard.

[bemused]

See if these things fit together . They do for me.

1. The Liddle

Bran meets The Liddle. He knows who they are. The Boltons are searching and will have been asking questions of the other clans as well , so the other clans could at least figure out that Bran and Rickon survived.

But according to Asha's thoughts in ADWD , it's well known that the northern clans are a quarrelsome lot and not likely to work or fight together unless they had a Stark to lead them.

Bran is escaping toward the wall, but The Liddle knows the NW takes no part , so he can't think that would be a safe refuge.

He would know Benjen personally , at least from when BJ held WF during RR and perhaps before. Morgan Liddle ( his eldest ) is a ranger on the wall and would know BJ well as his commanding officer , so he'd have access to Morgan's ( Big's) opinions. He might also have had contact with BJ on any trips BJ might have made to WF in the years he's been on the wall.

2. Other Northern Clans

The Flint and The Norrey arrive together at the wall , appear to be sizing up Jon and his plans, and are willing to go along , even though they are the ones the wildling influx would threaten first. Though it must stick in their craws , they even refrain from upending their cups when asked to drink to Stannis, Selyse and the Lord of Light at the wedding.. ( I'll just add that the wet nurses could be dual purpose. They'd be close to Val and able to glean wildling intent first hand.)

As already noted , by the end of ADWD, the clans all seem to have men strategically placed in all major factions in the North.

Like The Liddle , they would also have had contact with Benjen over the years.

3. Bloodraven / CoTF ( and Coldhands )

They guide Bran to their sanctuary.. Seem to want to ( or need to ) specifically help Starks , or those close to them - Bran , Jon , Sam - that we know of.

BR tells Bran he'll see beyond the trees..( a thousand eyes and one) ..so far though , we know he can see through the trees, the ravens (and of course, for Bran , Summer and poor Hodor ), so I'll limit my speculation a bit.

BR/CoTF have access to all of history , at least in the North ( perhaps only limited to where weirwoods have been present). They know about the Black Gate, would know the full meaning of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" , including the full implication of "always".

They'd know whether there is a secret passage under WF and if so , how it works.

They know far more about the Others than has been revealed so far , and the importance , if any ,of there being a Stark on the wall.

They would have been able to know what was going on at WF with the Ironborn and the Boltons as it happened. And could have known what was going on in White Harbour, and certainly with the Karstarks and Umbers , or any House that keeps a Godswood. ( Perhaps the Dreadfort ?)

BR can definitely influence dreams , but hasn't been able to communicate through the trees ( Bran may be showing some heigtened abilities in this regard , but if so, that won't come into play 'til later.)

Q and ( for me) A

Br/CoTF send Bran to their sanctuary, send Sam to open the gate and to help Jon , but swear him to secrecy re: Bran and Rickon. Would they have helped / saved Benjen ? .. Yes.

We don't know what BJ may have learned on his own (yet) but would BR/CoTF reveal more to him of what they know , and send him to WF ( galvanizing the clans on his way ) if WF needs a Stark and the North needs a Stark leader ? .. Yes.

Would Benjen do this without a by-your-leave from the NW ?.. Yes , if he thought it was for the greater good. ( Including the good of the NW )

Could BR/CoTF give enough clear , detailed information to The Liddle ( or other northerners ) through dreams to set them on a course of action and that would explain their behavior ? .. Very dubious. Dreams need interpretation.

But would dreams ,coupled with a visit from Benjen ,with a plan and himself to lead them , explain their actions ? .. I think Yes.

If this has happened, and the Great northern Conspiracy is underway , what would The Liddle do , when Mance turns up on behalf of Jon attempting to rescue "Arya" ? ( Mance is probably already known to him as Abel , due to Mance's "half a hundred " trips across the wall ) .. I think he'd want to play along , but include "Myrtle" in the party to see to it that "Abel" is on the up and up and doesn't inadvertently do anything that would spoil BR/CoTF'S / Benjen's / the North's plan.

So , while redriver has convinced me that "Myrtle", the sixth spearwife, is probably The Liddle or maybe a Liddle, I think both "Myrtle" and Benjen are in Winterfell , so I wouldn't necessarily say "she's" the Hooded Man . ( Difficulty in finding a changing room , maybe the need to stick close to Mance, who is in the hall at the time. )

Either way, I think they're acting in concert.

[redriver]

See if these things fit together . They do for me.

1. The Liddle

Bran meets The Liddle. He knows who they are. The Boltons are searching and will have been asking questions of the other clans as well , so the other clans could at least figure out that Bran and Rickon survived.

But according to Asha's thoughts in ADWD , it's well known that the northern clans are a quarrelsome lot and not likely to work or fight together unless they had a Stark to lead them.

Bran is escaping toward the wall, but The Liddle knows the NW takes no part , so he can't think that would be a safe refuge.

He would know Benjen personally , at least from when BJ held WF during RR and perhaps before. Morgan Liddle ( his eldest ) is a ranger on the wall and would know BJ well as his commanding officer , so he'd have access to Morgan's ( Big's) opinions. He might also have had contact with BJ on any trips BJ might have made to WF in the years he's been on the wall.

2. Other Northern Clans

The Flint and The Norrey arrive together at the wall , appear to be sizing up Jon and his plans, and are willing to go along , even though they are the ones the wildling influx would threaten first. Though it must stick in their craws , they even refrain from upending their cups when asked to drink to Stannis, Selyse and the Lord of Light at the wedding.. ( I'll just add that the wet nurses could be dual purpose. They'd be close to Val and able to glean wildling intent first hand.)

As already noted , by the end of ADWD, the clans all seem to have men strategically placed in all major factions in the North.

Like The Liddle , they would also have had contact with Benjen over the years.

3. Bloodraven / CoTF ( and Coldhands )

They guide Bran to their sanctuary.. Seem to want to ( or need to ) specifically help Starks , or those close to them - Bran , Jon , Sam - that we know of.

BR tells Bran he'll see beyond the trees..( a thousand eyes and one) ..so far though , we know he can see through the trees, the ravens (and of course, for Bran , Summer and poor Hodor ), so I'll limit my speculation a bit.

BR/CoTF have access to all of history , at least in the North ( perhaps only limited to where weirwoods have been present). They know about the Black Gate, would know the full meaning of "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" , including the full implication of "always".

They'd know whether there is a secret passage under WF and if so , how it works.

They know far more about the Others than has been revealed so far , and the importance , if any ,of there being a Stark on the wall.

They would have been able to know what was going on at WF with the Ironborn and the Boltons as it happened. And could have known what was going on in White Harbour, and certainly with the Karstarks and Umbers , or any House that keeps a Godswood. ( Perhaps the Dreadfort ?)

BR can definitely influence dreams , but hasn't been able to communicate through the trees ( Bran may be showing some heigtened abilities in this regard , but if so, that won't come into play 'til later.)

Q and ( for me) A

Br/CoTF send Bran to their sanctuary, send Sam to open the gate and to help Jon , but swear him to secrecy re: Bran and Rickon. Would they have helped / saved Benjen ? .. Yes.

We don't know what BJ may have learned on his own (yet) but would BR/CoTF reveal more to him of what they know , and send him to WF ( galvanizing the clans on his way ) if WF needs a Stark and the North needs a Stark leader ? .. Yes.

Would Benjen do this without a by-your-leave from the NW ?.. Yes , if he thought it was for the greater good. ( Including the good of the NW )

Could BR/CoTF give enough clear , detailed information to The Liddle ( or other northerners ) through dreams to set them on a course of action and that would explain their behavior ? .. Very dubious. Dreams need interpretation.

But would dreams ,coupled with a visit from Benjen ,with a plan and himself to lead them , explain their actions ? .. I think Yes.

If this has happened, and the Great northern Conspiracy is underway , what would The Liddle do , when Mance turns up on behalf of Jon attempting to rescue "Arya" ? ( Mance is probably already known to him as Abel , due to Mance's "half a hundred " trips across the wall ) .. I think he'd want to play along , but include "Myrtle" in the party to see to it that "Abel" is on the up and up and doesn't inadvertently do anything that would spoil BR/CoTF'S / Benjen's / the North's plan.

So , while redriver has convinced me that "Myrtle", the sixth spearwife, is probably The Liddle or maybe a Liddle, I think both "Myrtle" and Benjen are in Winterfell , so I wouldn't necessarily say "she's" the Hooded Man . ( Difficulty in finding a changing room , maybe the need to stick close to Mance, who is in the hall at the time. )

Either way, I think they're acting in concert.

Lot's of ideas here as usual Bemused.Some I'm in full agreement with,others not so much.In order to end on a positive note,let's get the disagreements out of the way.

I don't think Benjen is in Winterfell or is the HM.Don't see enough evidence for it.I would like to think it was,but I would also like to think he was bad ass enough to march up to the Heart of Winter to see what all the fuss was about!!

But then you've articulated the "crackpot" explanation for the Liddle's strange behaviour towards Bran that I alluded to upthread.The only logical conclusion that I can arrive at is that he's under instruction and that those orders are issued by Bloodraven.How,I don't know.Perhaps by raven or the weirnet?Iirc,BR ruled out communicating with the dead,but he didn't rule out contact with the living.It looks to me that the Liddles and maybe other mountain clans discretely escorted Bran &Co to the Wall.

I think Meera spots an eagle in the skies.Perhaps that wasn't Orrel,but BR that time,and that's how he knew to send Coldhands to the Night Fort.

I also agree that Mance and the Liddle probably know each other already.Mance tells Jon that he's known as the Mance to some,a style used by the mountain clans.But when Rattleshirt is quizzing Mel about the location of this fleeing girl,he admits to knowing the lands west of Long Lake and even some "hidey holes" he's used in the past.The cave the Liddle meets Bran in is certainly a hidey hole.

Your point about the Liddle wanting to keep an eye on Mance in Winterfell is noted,but Myrtle keeps a really low profile.I doubt she enters the Great Hall until the very end.My impression is that they're on the same page,motive-wise.

[messem]

I think he would have to me pretty daft no not notice the fact that Bran is a crippled boy of a young age with a huge Direwolf.. im SURE he knows who Bran is. but yes the much more interesting question is who HE is

He is the guy who will save Theon from certain death.

[Ponys123]

Whose first name is Torren, according to the aFfC appendix. I'm inclined to agree; the mountain clans are probably much less wealthy than lowland northern houses, so a partly gold brooch makes me think he's a close relative of Torren Liddle, if not the very same man. Distant cousins might have little or no jewelry.

Even most medieval serfs had a few expensive things, like jewelry. Just saying.