Worst dad in Westeros

[Anatole Kuragin]

I believe he was agreeing that he could be seen as a bad father, but definitely not the worst.

[hnv]

yes stannis loves her
but he doesn't show it, but he does care for her and she is probably the only person he cares for and rate above justice

[Paxter]

[quote name='hnv' post='1419213' date='Jun 28 2008, 16.46']but he doesn't show it but he does care for her she is probably the only person he cares for and rate above justice[/quote]

If he doesn't show it then how do you know that he cares for her?

[hnv]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419215' date='Jun 28 2008, 03.49']If he doesn't show it then how do you know that he cares for her?[/quote]
he once said that the kings hand before davos tried to give up and give his shireen to the lannisters
and he got pissed on him
meaning he cares for her

and when they wanted to burn edric storm when ever davos mentioned he was befriended with her stannis had second thoughts

[Fleeing Finn]

In my opinion it is somewhat unjust to blame Ned for Sansa, since it seems the upbrining and teaching of the girls was mainly Cat's (and septa Mordane's) job.

Tywin mostly comes out as cold pragmatist but he's also needlessly cruel. If your son hates you so much as to shoot you with a crossbow when you're taking a dumb it's pretty obvious you're not exactly the dream dad.

While I don't deny Robert being partially responsible for Joff I think he's being given too much creadit over Cersei. Robert was never good at taking resposibility and should be blamed for his absence in raising him, but I think it was sweet Cersei who made him the boy he was.

Randyll is kind of like Stannis, they both despise and don't accept weakness in other men. They're both willing to become kinslayers to see their business through. Stannis already is one but Randyll managed to dodge that bullet.

[Paxter]

[quote name='hnv' post='1419217' date='Jun 28 2008, 16.53']and when they wanted to burn edric storm when ever davos mentioned he was befriended with her stannis had second thoughts[/quote]

Yes, he had second thoughts. And then he decided to go ahead and kill Edric anyway. Lucky Davos was on hand to rectify the situation.

[quote name='hnv' post='1419217' date='Jun 28 2008, 16.53']he once said that the kings hand before davos tried to give up and give his shireen to the lannisters
and he got pissed on him
meaning he cares for her[/quote]

Alester Florent was not simply going to 'give' Shireen to the Lannisters. He planned to wed Shireen to Tommen in exchange for Stannis giving up his claim for the throne. IMO the reason Stannis didn't like the idea is because of the latter part of this arangement i.e. giving up the throne. Stannis always places his quest for justice and the Iron Throne first. It wasn't so much the idea of marrying Shireen off to a Lannister that displeased him. That's my interepretation anyway. You are certainly entitled to have your own.

[Neurosis]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419161' date='Jun 28 2008, 14.35']Well he certainly prepared his male children for "the realities of life in Westeros". But he taught Sansa virtually nothing. And that ultimately proved to be Ned's downfall as Sansa betrayed his plans to Cersei.

BTW I must admit that I am playing devil's advocate here because, by and large, I do agree with you that Ned was a decent father. But he wasn't perfect.[/quote]

I imagine Catelyn had more to do with Sansa's raising than Ned. Not to say that that absolves him of blame, but her flaws can't be laid purely at his door.

Edit: Oops, missed the second page of the thread.

[Szar]

Craster takes the cake. Sacrificing your sons to the Others and marrying your daughters? Yeah, he's [i]bad[/i].

Still, he's beyond the Wall... so I'll dismiss him.

Randyll Tarly comes next. Being willing to [i]hunt down[/i] your own son because you reckon him a disappointment... Urghh.

Tywin is ranked third, purely for his treatment of Tyrion.

[hodabran]

to compare randyll to stannis is doing stannis a great disservice. Randyll wishes he had stannis's convictions & sense of justice. randyll does what he is told, follows his oaf of a liege lord, followed renly who was more interested in partying & looking pretty then winning a crown, does his brand of "harsh but fair" justice on the lowest of soldiers & common men but you know if he had to take a stand against mace or the crown (not revolution just in an arguement) he would back down & do as he was told where stannis would forsake all friends & power to do the right thing....my god do i hate bullyies & imho randyll is king of the bullies & will get his when his son is traversing the globe giving battle plans to fight the others & he'll once again have to get in line like a good lap dog only this time it will be to do what sam tells him.....whew. i feel better now.

[Shewoman]

I think Craster's hands down the worst.

If we're eliminating him from contention, I'm torn between Tywin and Tarly. Tywin blames Tyrion for Joanna's death, as if that was something Tyrion did intentionally. TYWIN was the one who married his cousin and then fathered a dwarf whose birth killed his wife; seems like he bears a tad of responsibility there. His real issue, I think, is that he doesn't want to admit (or to have others think) that he could father an ugly dwarf. He refuses to recognize Tyrion's gifts and goes ballistic over Tyrion's whoring when there's a tunnel from the Hand's rooms to Chataya's--and Tyrion's not the one who built that.

He's aware that his twins had a sexual interest in each other as children but doesn't seem to have done anything to keep them from pursuing that as adults. This led to the murder of Robert, who was not the best king going but was certainly better than Joffrey. But I guess this makes him a bad citizen more than a bad parent.

As for Tarly--I think his issues with Sam are similar to Tywin's with Tyrion: "I COULDN'T HAVE FATHERED THAT!!" Sending Sam to the Wall got Sam out of Tarly's hair--but giving the Wall a man whom you believe to be a helpless whimpering coward isn't the best thing for the NW. I wonder if he'll ever know the things that Sam has accomplished there, including killing an Other. I yearn for the day when Tarly is known primarily as the father of Sam the Slayer.

[YungWolf]

I don't know why the clear answer isn't Ned. Look at what he sons had done at such a young age. Robb became the leige lord in the North and led all his bannerman to battle, although that didn't turn out too well it was just general adolesence. He was spactacular in battle and did a fairly well job of keeping his honor.

His other son Jon (if you beleive R+L=J, than still consider that Ned raised him as a son) is the LC of the NW...I mean that speaks mountains right there.


As far as the Tywin bashing goes becuase of the way he treats Tyrion, keep in mind that Tyrion may not be his son becuase of the possible rape of his wife by (I can't remember which) the Targaryen king, so on top of him not being his son his wife was killed.....don't get me wrong though I love Tyrion and loath Tywin....just kinda playing Devil's Advocate

[Coffee]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1419206' date='Jun 28 2008, 04.32']What was he thinking when he said:
[i]"Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are."?[/i]
Maybe that being a sadistic prick makes him a good father? :rolleyes:[/quote]

But that was all part of his plot. Randyll is omniscient, so he knew that sending Sam to the Wall was the right choice.

Really, though, you don't think Robert hated Joffrey? I mean, he knew just what kind of monster the kid was. He might have done something similar, would have undoubtedly have beat him, if he were a lesser lord and not the king. He might eventually have ended up forcing Joffrey to give up his claim in favor of Tommen.

Personal feelings aside, though, Dickon would probably be a better lord than Sam, from the viewpoint of the people protected by Horn Hill. Even if he didn't panic in combat, he still wouldn't hold up in arguments with, say, Lord Hightower.

I think Tywin loses, though. Look at Cersei and Jaime(pre-hand), and then at how he treats Tyrion.

(This is all discounting Craster, he's on a totally different level of bad.)

[Ouroboros]

Robert did hit Joffery once, hard enough to almost knock his teeth out, after Joffery had cut open a pregnant cat and tried to show his father the fetuses.

[Guest Other-in-law]

Alternating between physical abuse and utter neglect, leading to that paragon of humanity known as Joff, hardly constitutes good parenting. Joffrey obviously had some personality problems that needed to be positively addressed. Robert just lashes out, then turns his back after Cersei threatens him.

Compare that to Ned Stark who is also raising another man's son: Theon Greyjoy is still callow and non-empathetic, but Ned's efforts to gentle him over all those years made [i]some difference[/i]. He's not a real Ironborn, anymore as he discovers to his dismay when he goes home (ironically, his efforts to prove himself made him even worse). Robert's fathering made no deliberate difference, Joff continues butchering pets while his father lives and moves on to humans when he dies. The only impact he had was negative, ignorant bluster about kings being bold, and talk of killing crippled children that he's too cowardly to own up to when he's sober.

[Lady Blackfish]

[quote name='Anatole Kuragin' post='1419200' date='Jun 28 2008, 03.23']You have to think about that quote in the context, as Tarly is not only father to Dickon and Sammy, he is also father to all who look to him for protection and leadership. Randyll was thinking of them when he sent his son away.[/quote]
Sending Sam away in no way necessitates telling him that if it wasn't for his mother he'd see Sam dead.

I've got no beef with the Chuck Norris thing, but he's still a sucky dad. I'll admit I'm a little amused at fantasy geeks defending a guy for loathing his son for being a bookish non-jock ;)

[quote name='Paxter' post='1419211' date='Jun 28 2008, 03.45']Is Stannis capable of love?[/quote]
I think if Stannis loves anyone, it's Shireen. Perhaps in a very repressed way, but if there's one person it'd be her. I wonder if Mel will ever pick Shireen as a sacrifice on grounds of her king's blood ...

[quote name='Fleeing Finn' post='1419218' date='Jun 28 2008, 04.01']In my opinion it is somewhat unjust to blame Ned for Sansa, since it seems the upbrining and teaching of the girls was mainly Cat's (and septa Mordane's) job.[/quote]
As far as Sansa's dreaminess and naivete goes she's much more in line with Ned than Cat. Ned is the one we see sheltering Sansa at court, making sure she hears nothing nasty and getting irritated with Septa Mordane bringing her to court to see all the grown-up business. Paxter is right, Ned grows his boys up and prepares them but when it comes to his girls he wants them to be little as long as possible, very likely IMO due to his lingering pain over Lyanna. Her betrothal and everything associated with it is linked to so much pain for her, no wonder he didn't want Sansa promised away at "only eleven", nevermind that it seems like a very normal age for noble girls to get betrothed. Even with Arya, his reason for letting her have a sword isn't because he's preparing her for anything, he sees her desire to learn swordplay as a child's fancy that he hopes will pass in time for her to marry some great lord and be a lady, but he doesn't have it in him to deny her her wish. Arya also recalls how he never let her go hunting with her brothers, he doesn't see her future as a warrior woman, he just wants to indulge his girls.

[quote name='Fleeing Finn' post='1419218' date='Jun 28 2008, 04.01']While I don't deny Robert being partially responsible for Joff I think he's being given too much creadit over Cersei. Robert was never good at taking resposibility and should be blamed for his absence in raising him, but I think it was sweet Cersei who made him the boy he was.[/quote]
I think definitely Cersei's genes was a big part of Joff, but the only thing Robert seemed to do when not being an absentee dad was set an example of abuse. They're both pretty lacking parents.

[TheThirdStrongest]

I think Varys is the worst father in Westeros. He'll never even have a son.

I think Commander Mormont is one of the best fathers, also Brienne's father.

And following the same reasoning as Hoster Tully being bad because he father Lysa, Gregor Clegane's father is worse than Craster.

[Tyrion Stark]

Ok on the subject of Tarly. He's a douche hands down. His son express interest in being a Maester a position in which he could one raise to be on the small council and how does he react instead of tell his son "Hey, instead let's go outside and play with some tourney swords" No he puts his son in a dungeon and chains him to the wall for a period of time. Great parenting.

Tywin, even if his wife was raped, which I don't remember. Tyrion had nothing to do with that and didn't plan on killing his mother in the womb. I mean he's smart but he's no Stewart Gillian Griffin. You send him to KL in your stead and he does a fantastic job. He leads men into battle to protect a spoiled violent sadistic asshole of king and you can't even admit that he's your heir.

I can't condone either of these men for their actions. The others were bad but these men take the cake with perhaps giving a pieces to Craster.

On the not of Eddard Stark he fell victim to a plague most dad fall into they don't want to see their little girls grow up. Its common and he's only human.

[Lady Blackfish]

The knock against Hoster Tully really shouldn't be fathering Lysa. Growing up she was, to paraphrase Jaime, not fearsome at all, but soft and shy. Nothing criminal there. She went nuts over her adult life, part of which was spent in an amount of isolation in the Eyrie, where the only thing she wanted and was wanted for was her ability to bear a son. So the biggest knock against Hoster was his forcing Lysa to take an abortifacient, which likely contributed to her pregnancy problems (as well as Jon Arryn's own questionable virility). Her chances of a good marriage would obviously go way down if it was known that she was pregnant, but he might have settled for a shotgun wedding to whomever was available to spare his daughter that damage to her body. That it's his biggest crime is emphasized by the fact that it haunts him on his death bed.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1419730' date='Jun 29 2008, 08.52']So the biggest knock against Hoster was his forcing Lysa to take an abortifacient, which likely contributed to her pregnancy problems (as well as Jon Arryn's own questionable virility).[/quote]

Yeah, I think you're right Lady Blackfish - I was probably a bit harsh in my original post when I said that the problem with Old Hoster is that he raised Lysa. The real problem with Hoster is that he keeps forcing his loved ones to marry people they don't like - he did it to his brother and to his daughter Lysa. Maybe he learned his lesson by the time Edmure came around though, because he wasn't forcing any marital arrangements on his son IIRC.

[Anatole Kuragin]

If Randyll hadn't sent Sam to the wall, Sam wouldn't have slain the Other and discovered the secretz that are going to save everyone at the end of the series. Sending Spamwell to the Wall was the only way His son could reach his full potential as a lord and humanitarian. Randyll knew this immediately when Sam was born and made preparations. If He hadn't threatened Sam, Sam wouldn't have taken him seriously.