Jaqen H'ghar

[lordofthesox]

I've read all the posts in this thread, as well as some others, and after careful consideration, I'm buying the theory that Jaqen was a plant in the black cells. It doesn't make complete sense, but as others have pointed out, we can't piece together any truly perfect theory on this, but at least this theory answers more questions than it creates.

As some have pointed out, Varys might have wanted Ned dead if he knew about R+L=J. However, I'm more inclined to think that Cersei wanted him dead because he knew about her children, and protecting her children is of paramount importance to her. Leaving Ned alive was not a risk she would have taken, ever.

So how does Jaqen know who Arya is? Simple, he had been hired to kill her father, so he followed him around for a bit to make sure he'd know who he was and a little bit about him. During that time, he happened across his daughters. That's how he was able to piece it together.

The only gaping hole is why he was in the black cells when he could have simply volunteered for the watch. Perhaps the answer is just because Cersei is stupid and paranoid.

[Piper]

[quote name='lordofthesox' post='1536480' date='Sep 29 2008, 21.28']However, I'm more inclined to think that Cersei wanted him dead because he knew about her children, and protecting her children is of paramount importance to her. Leaving Ned alive was not a risk she would have taken, ever.[/quote]

This doesn't explain what he's doing in Oldtown, though. His actions seem very deliberate there. Any theory that has JH contracted out to kill Ned or someone on the Wall needs to answer what he's doing last we saw him.

[Arya Nemeria Stark]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1525315' date='Sep 19 2008, 23.46']FG? what's that, him of many faces? I'm confused, are you claiming that Jaqen and the Kindly man are the same man/god because they both use glamour magic/tricks? Jaqen hearing Arya in the bathhouse is explained right away: Arya trying to sneak does not make her automatically silent, Jaqen heard the leather of her boots scrapping on the floor, and advises her to go barefoot next time she tries sneaking, no need to be a god for that.[/quote]
Sorry took me so long to reply I was tired that night and most of the stuff didn't make sense. I mean maybe Jaqen is the FIRST FM, you now the one who started freeing the slaves in Valaria. Granted, i don't know how that makes anymore sense except that he seems to know TOO much. 1. be arya's identity2. why he "killed balon"3 how he knows to go to oldtown, for whatever reason hes there. There's obviously more magic to him then we know b/c i DOUBT he goes back to the temple after each mission to see who to go for next.
.. He could be using the same type of magic the " priest " used with Varys ball-sack IDK the timeline isn't perfect so it leaves alot of guessing

*i was trying to justify that he might be the first Fm b/c his glamous trick was stronger then the OLD MAN's skull glamous was (by using the fact that the old mans glamour broke when arya touched it, and Jaqens wasn't changed by the hot water flwoing over his head, IDK)

[mormont]

[quote name='lordofthesox' post='1536480' date='Sep 30 2008, 02.28']I've read all the posts in this thread, as well as some others, and after careful consideration, I'm buying the theory that Jaqen was a plant in the black cells. It doesn't make complete sense, but as others have pointed out, we can't piece together any truly perfect theory on this, but at least this theory answers more questions than it creates.[/quote]

Quite the reverse, in fact. It creates many questions, and answers none.

You might think that it answers the question of what he was doing in the Black Cells, but it doesn't. It just rephrases it. Instead of 'what did Jaqen do to wind up there?' the question becomes 'why was he planted there?' There's still no answer. But at least in the original formulation it's simply a matter of a single missing piece of information: we can, as it were, see the shape of the missing piece.

Meanwhile, if we buy the 'plant' theory we have questions like: who hired him, and why? Cersei is a terrible suspect. Even if she had the money, it is simply not her style. Much too subtle, much too indirect, and much too much forethought required. Besides, the idea that someone would hire a FM to off a disgraced former Hand on the way to the Night's Watch is fanciful. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[Arya Nemeria Stark]

[quote name='Miriel' post='1528397' date='Sep 23 2008, 08.32']Jaqen is not Syrio.

Their very attitudes towards Arya were different: Jaqen was much more aloof and indifferent to Arya than Syrio was. Syrio was willing to sacrifice his life to save Arya's life. Jaqen just delayed his mission a bit in order to do what was a religious obligation for him (repay the Red God the three lives) and it seems like he felt that if it helped Arya a bit along the way, well and good. But he did not go out of his way even one little bit to help her ... (and for those of you who say "but he gave her the coin" I see that as more of just smart recruiting when he fully realized how suitable she was to train as a FM). He was opposed to the whole hot weasel soup plan until it was clear he had to cooperate to save his life--remember?

I liked Syrio--he was a really great character-- but his nobility would largely disappear if he turns out to be a FM who had a long term plan to recruit Arya rather than an ordinary man who gave his life to save her.[/quote]
OO oo! I just thought of somehting while i was reading your post that's why i quoted it but, if i were to agree with you (which i'm pritty close to at this point) my reasoning why Jaqen would give Arya the Coin would be to teach her that killing isn't something she decides to do all the time but something that him of many faces decides, thus her part of the story is for her learning that killing isn't the only way to solve things. Its not even for her being recruited, just teaching her not to kill. The " old white woman/child" says instead of Beric smelling of corpses it was arya.. and calls her blood child ASoS (PB) pg.593

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='mormont' post='1536757' date='Sep 30 2008, 04.57']Besides, the idea that someone would hire a FM to off a disgraced former Hand on the way to the Night's Watch is fanciful. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.[/quote]
Indeed. If I were calling the shots in the Lannister camp and was able to get funding for a FM, I send him after sorceress-protected, never-yielding Stannis. Or at least one of the opposing kings. Certainly not someone [i]already in my dungeon[/i], who I could simply order any common lackey to go down and slit the throat of.

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='Arya Nemeria Stark' post='1536751' date='Sep 30 2008, 10.51']I mean maybe Jaqen is the FIRST FM, you now the one who started freeing the slaves in Valaria. Granted, i don't know how that makes anymore sense except that he seems to know TOO much. 1. be arya's identity2. why he "killed balon"3 how he knows to go to oldtown, for whatever reason hes there. There's obviously more magic to him then we know b/c i DOUBT he goes back to the temple after each mission to see who to go for next.
.. He could be using the same type of magic the " priest " used with Varys ball-sack IDK the timeline isn't perfect so it leaves alot of guessing

*i was trying to justify that he might be the first Fm b/c his glamous trick was stronger then the OLD MAN's skull glamous was (by using the fact that the old mans glamour broke when arya touched it, and Jaqens wasn't changed by the hot water flwoing over his head, IDK)[/quote]First, what is "IDK"?

Then:
1) How would Jaqen's centuries of age be related to knowledge about a girl that was born ten years before?
2) He wasn't the one to kill Balon, or at least, the idea that he killed Balon stems from the assumption that there is only one faceless man in westeros and that he subsequently has strong superpowers, so saying that he has powers based on that is a bit of a circular argument. Also, why would being centuries old make one more likely to murder Balon, compared to a normal man?
3) There are ways for people to communicate without seeing each others, most involve messages, but Marwyn also uses glass candles, and the Stark children use wolves and trees. Of course, one simple solution would be for him to have several targets from the get go, after all when you go shopping, you bring a list with you. Even if he used a mystical way of communicating, how does that imply he is strong, or the strongest, or old?

About the glamour, first, there isn't such a thing as a "stronger" one. The kindly man dissolved his willingly after Arya proved she wasn't afraid of him, but it didn't dissolve on touch, in fact Arya could pluck the worm out of the guy's orbit and taste it before the man chuckled and dissolved the illusion.
Secondly, why would the first FM be stronger than his descendants? Seems odd and not altogether consistent with the way ASOIAF has been built, where heroes/strong guys die and let the next generation have its own heroes, not in the pessimistic fashion of LOTR where each generation only means degeneration and weakening
Thirdly, the first FM existed centuries before, if not millenias (I'm not too keen on the timeline). The magic to live forever seems way more complicated than a way to communicate, or teach face-shifting, and it would also mean that Arya is doomed to not learn the FM arts in the time of the story, since the magical/tricks skill in that case grow so slowly. (if they do not grow slowly, then Jaqen does not need to be uber old to have those magic powers)

[lordofthesox]

[quote name='mormont' post='1536757' date='Sep 30 2008, 03.57']Quite the reverse, in fact. It creates many questions, and answers none.

You might think that it answers the question of what he was doing in the Black Cells, but it doesn't. It just rephrases it. Instead of 'what did Jaqen do to wind up there?' the question becomes 'why was he planted there?' There's still no answer. But at least in the original formulation it's simply a matter of a single missing piece of information: we can, as it were, see the shape of the missing piece.

Meanwhile, if we buy the 'plant' theory we have questions like: who hired him, and why? Cersei is a terrible suspect. Even if she had the money, it is simply not her style. Much too subtle, much too indirect, and much too much forethought required. Besides, the idea that someone would hire a FM to off a disgraced former Hand on the way to the Night's Watch is fanciful. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.[/quote]

It answers the question of how Jaqen knew Arya, at least. I don't like relying on Jaqen having heard Arya shout Winterfell amongst a large battle with tons of stuff going on for the explanation of that. Certainly there are other viable theories of how he knew her though. I suppose when we find out his Oldtown mission the pieces may come together.