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Valonqar; A double bluff?


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#1 Night Watchman

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 03:28 PM

Well, I've just been reading the wiki article for Cersei, and at one point it talks about hew she has been haunted by threats of a valonqar who will strangle her.

Now most of us, take this to mean Jaime and events seem to be heading that way. However, I got to wondering if valonqar could have a duel meaning and there it was in the article;

valonqar (Valyrian for "little brother" or "younger brother")


What if in this phrase Valonqar means literally 'Little Brother' as in 'Small Brother'? This would certainly point to Tyrion being the Volonqar after all.

Any ideas, or do you guys think this is just another cracked pot?

#2 Lampmonster

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:31 PM

Well, I've just been reading the wiki article for Cersei, and at one point it talks about hew she has been haunted by threats of a valonqar who will strangle her.

Now most of us, take this to mean Jaime and events seem to be heading that way. However, I got to wondering if valonqar could have a duel meaning and there it was in the article;



What if in this phrase Valonqar means literally 'Little Brother' as in 'Small Brother'? This would certainly point to Tyrion being the Volonqar after all.

Any ideas, or do you guys think this is just another cracked pot?


She thinks it means Tyrion. A lot of people think it really means Jaime. I personally think that it reffers to Dany. Why? Well, according to Aemon on the ship the prophecy about the return of the dragons reffered to a valanqor and he said that he and Raegher mistook this to mean little brother, however he was now convinced that it was dany, and said that valanqor didn't specify sex, it just meant younger sibling. Since she is the valanqor of prophecy, I think the Magei might have been reffering to Dany as well. Just my two cents.

#3 Dycedarg

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:39 PM

Believe me, you're not the first person to think of this. However, since you do seem to be keeping it within the Lannisters you aren't straying into the realm of the cracked pot just yet. If you tried to argue that any younger brother could be the one or going the route Lampmonster has thoughtfully illustrated and saying it could mean any younger sibling regardless of gender, then you would be edging into crackpot territory.

On that front, the prophecy specifically says the valonqar will wrap his hands around Cersei's throat...

Edited by Dycedarg, 13 August 2008 - 04:41 PM.


#4 Lampmonster

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:51 PM

On that front, the prophecy specifically says the valonqar will wrap his hands around Cersei's throat...


According to a 20 year old memory from a person that was essentially a scared girl at the time. Just to be clear, I'm not saying any younger sibling, I'm saying a girl who was previously named volonqar in another prophecy. I'm taking it as a title as much as a designation. The Volonqar if you will. If I'm right you owe me a beer. :)

Edited by Lampmonster, 13 August 2008 - 04:53 PM.


#5 The Mango

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:54 PM

I think it means she chokes to death while giving Jaime a BJ.

But that's just my opinion.

#6 Dycedarg

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 04:55 PM

According to a 20 year old memory from a person that was essentially a scared girl at the time. Just to be clear, I'm not saying any younger sibling, I'm saying a girl who was previously named volonqar in another prophecy. I'm taking it as a title as much as a designation. The Volonqar if you will. If I'm right you owe me a beer. :)

You can't actually demand that since I never said I was betting your idea was wrong but I'll take you up on it anyways. In return if the valonqar turns out to be anyone else you must sing the 'I'm very sorry' song while hopping sideways on one leg with your eyes closed.

Edited by Dycedarg, 13 August 2008 - 04:57 PM.


#7 Juggling Joker

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 05:46 PM

Well, according to Aemon on the ship the prophecy about the return of the dragons reffered to a valanqor and he said that he and Raegher mistook this to mean little brother, however he was now convinced that it was dany, and said that valanqor didn't specify sex, it just meant younger sibling. Since she is the valanqor of prophecy, I think the Magei might have been reffering to Dany as well. Just my two cents.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying any younger sibling, I'm saying a girl who was previously named volonqar in another prophecy. I'm taking it as a title as much as a designation. The Volonqar if you will.

Dany was named "valonqar" previously? Since when? Aemon stated that the "Prince" who was promised could have easily been a "Princess" who was promised given the ambiguity of the gender in the title. Did you mean that instead? Perhaps I'm misremembering though.

(Certainly "valonqar" could be gender neutral as well, but assuming this particular propechy refers to Dany on such flimsy grounds is a bit premature dontcha think?)

#8 Lampmonster

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 06:14 PM

Dany was named "valonqar" previously? Since when? Aemon stated that the "Prince" who was promised could have easily been a "Princess" who was promised given the ambiguity of the gender in the title. Did you mean that instead? Perhaps I'm misremembering though.

(Certainly "valonqar" could be gender neutral as well, but assuming this particular propechy refers to Dany on such flimsy grounds is a bit premature dontcha think?)



I was sure that Aemon had called her that on the boat, but now I can't find it. I might be crazy.

#9 Raff the Sweetling

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 06:27 PM

I guess I try not to take the prophecy too literally. I would like it to be Jaime, but one handed choking may be troublesome. It doesnt have to be her little brother, and there is no end to the little brothers that would like to strangle her. I wouldnt be suprised if it doesnt mean she is literally "choked" but someone brings her down off her high horse and ruins her.

Edited by Raff the Sweetling, 13 August 2008 - 06:29 PM.


#10 Jaime Hill/Waters

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 07:32 PM

One possibility is that it means Dany. If Cersei are Aerys bastard then Dany is her litle sister and like PWHP means men but ordinaly men and women and like Aemon think it means Dany then valongar can men Dany too. Can you follow me. Just a thought.

ETA: whoops sombady say that already. Need read discussion before post.

Edited by Jaime Hill/Waters, 13 August 2008 - 07:37 PM.


#11 Shewoman

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Posted 13 August 2008 - 08:05 PM

I don't recall the word "valonqar" ever being used about Dany.

The "valonqar" prophecy in AFFC, p. 541 in US hardback, says "the valonqar"--not, specifically, "your" valonqar. So I don't think the field is limited to Tyrion and Jaime. You KNOW there are more than two people who want to kill Cersei!

Edited by Shewoman, 13 August 2008 - 08:19 PM.


#12 Raff the Sweetling

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 02:51 PM

I see Bran warging through Hodor. He becomes Brandor and must get through Gregorstein to get to Cersei. The fight seems to be all but over in favor of Gregorstein until he is caught in Brandors vise like grip. And with one sickening crunch and the scream of Brandoooor! Gregorsteins face is crushed to a bloody pulp. Cersei falling back on old tactics tries to seduce Brandor. Brandor asks if she wants to see his greatsword, and pulls down his pants. :wideeyed: Cersei is temporarily distracted at the sight of it and Brandor gets ahold of her and chokes her to death. Brandor gets his wish and becomes a night of the kingsguard for King John Targaryen and is known ever after as Brandor the long.

Bran is the Valanqar!

Edited by Raff the Sweetling, 14 August 2008 - 02:54 PM.


#13 The_Hound

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 03:12 PM

It could be anyone...But I think it will be Tommen...why? First, it would be cool...second I don't know, he is a little brother I guess.

#14 Jed o' Tarth

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 04:28 PM

It could be anyone...But I think it will be Tommen...why? First, it would be cool...second I don't know, he is a little brother I guess.


Sadly, if the prohpecy is true, Tommen will die before he gets the chance. :cry:



I like the idea of Bran, though.

However, I'm still convinced it will be Jaime.

#15 matt b

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 07:44 PM

I was sure that Aemon had called her that on the boat, but now I can't find it. I might be crazy.


Juggling Joker is right, you're getting your prophecies mixed up. It's the Prince that was Promised prophecy that Aemon figured could really be a Princess that was Promised, but it's for the same reasoning. Apparently "Prince" in Valyrian is gender neutral, IIRC because dragons are themselves gender neutral, which seems to have had some impact on the language. That implies that Valonqar might be as well, but there's no solid evidence either way.

#16 Ouroboros

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 07:55 PM

It'll be Jaime that does her in, though not directly. By burning her note instead of reading it he's as good as sentenced her to death. That was my take on the scene anyway.

#17 Daemrion

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:26 AM

It could be Tyrion or Jaime - just depends on what GRRM wants to write - what he wants us to get out of this storyline.

It is after all sort of Cersei's fault that Tyrion hates her with a vengeance. She brings about her own fate by treating Tyrion so badly that he wants to kill her.

#18 Taemlyn Blackfyre

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 08:14 AM

I don't recall the word "valonqar" ever being used about Dany.

The "valonqar" prophecy in AFFC, p. 541 in US hardback, says "the valonqar"--not, specifically, "your" valonqar. So I don't think the field is limited to Tyrion and Jaime. You KNOW there are more than two people who want to kill Cersei!


You're right about the first bit and mostly right about the second bit. The dude who brings her a dwarf head does say "your valonqar" and is lucky to escape with his life. Coincidence, foreshadowing, I dunno. But every arrow points to Tyrion which is why I think we can conclusively rule him out.

For my half a groat, I'd say Benjen Stark qualifies as a Valonqar with more reason to want to strangle her than anyone short of Tyrion and Jaime. But if Valonqar happens to be gender neutral, Arya Stark is your man!

#19 mcbigski

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:08 AM

Sadly, if the prohpecy is true, Tommen will die before he gets the chance. :cry:


Tommen's dying doesn't preclude him from subsequently strangling Cersei however.

#20 Shewoman

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 04:06 PM

Taemlyn, Cersei is looking for "her" valonqar's head, so the dwarf saying that isn't all that odd. But, to the best of my knowledge, we've not seen the word used in connection with Dany. Am I right on that?

Does Benjen have more reason to kill her than anyone else because of Ned's execution? That, actually, is one thing of which Cersei isn't guilty (although she is largely responsible for the horror that was Joffrey).