125 replies to this topic

[Daemrion]

I think it has to be either Tyrion or Jaime.

Valonqar could well mean "your little brother" so the prophecy would be translated as "the your little brother".

As for shroud - Myrcella could also wear a shroud/veil in a marriage.

Edited by Daemrion, 18 December 2009 - 04:27 AM.

[Wh0resbane]

Deep down, I don't think Jaime would ever forgive Tyrion for killing Cersei.

I think Jaime would feel betrayed if Tyrion killed her, based on the events that happened between Cersei and Jaime in the 4th book, Jaime would seem inclined to strangle her. Moreover, Cersei is 'Jamie's bitch' and therefore Jaime gets "first dibs" in killing her. It is his right.

Assuming that the theories are true, Tyrion would be the Hand of Dany, where he would have dignity and honor for himself. That said,strangling a crazy lady would just seem out of his character, dishonorable even. While Jaime strangling her would be retribution for "fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy," and it just seems more justified, since Cersei broke his heart.

With that said, I agree with others that Jaime is the Valonqar.

[Stubby]

Wh0resbane, on 18 December 2009 - 03:57 PM, said:

Assuming that the theories are true, Tyrion would be the Hand of Dany, where he would have dignity and honor for himself. That said,strangling a crazy lady would just seem out of his character, dishonorable even. While Jaime strangling her would be retribution for "fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy," and it just seems more justified, since Cersei broke his heart.

I doubt breaking your heart is justification for strangling someone. I'm assuming you meant that this would fit Jaime's character and not just in general?

[SFDanny]

Unbeknownst to all but the now rare Valyrian philologist/cultural anthropologist Valonqar refers to any younger male relative on the male side. Thus we have proof that as Tommen is not only Cersei's son, but also her nephew, he must be the one fated to kill his mother/aunt. I think the method of Cersei's death is still in question with my favorites currently running between Tommen doing the deed with his own pudgy prepubescent hands choking the living snot out of his drunken sot of a mother, or he gets lots of help from a pack of well-trained, and angry, kittens. My apologies to Orestes.

[Wh0resbane]

Stubby, on 18 December 2009 - 06:24 PM, said:

I doubt breaking your heart is justification for strangling someone. I'm assuming you meant that this would fit Jaime's character and not just in general?

Yes, I was only speaking in context of the story. Looking back at it though, its kinda funny to see that it could be interpreted in general terms.

Back on topic though, AFFC seems to be building up the animosity between Cersei and Jaime and i think it will peek when Jaime puts an end to her life.

Edited by Wh0resbane, 18 December 2009 - 11:11 PM.

[Winterborn]

Hmm. I don't think that it will necessarily be a relative of Cersei's.

Loras Tyrell could also be considered a younger brother (he is younger than Margaery, right?) and if she is put to death by the Faith Militant, he would certainly have motive to strangle Cersei.

Also, with all this talk recently of Gregor Clegane possibly becoming Cersei's champion, I can't help but wonder if Sandor will make another appearance. His role as a younger brother is also brought up often in the books.

Edited by Winterborn, 19 December 2009 - 03:20 PM.

[Silverstar]

There are tons of younger brothers with reason to hate the Lannisters, if not specifically Cersei. Loras Tyrell, the Blackfish, Edmure Tully, Bran and Rickon Stark, and Stannis Baratheon to name a few in addition to Jaime and Tyrion.

Could be any one of them.

[Mad Monkey]

That's not really a prophecy then, is it? Maegi could just as easily have said "Beware the Gjuujka" if 'gjuujka' meant 'human being' and basically prophesized that somehow a human would cause Cersei's downfall.

[Gordar]

Has nobody ever considered that Stannis is Cersei's brother in law?

If the faith decides Cersei has to marry Lancel, Martyn Lannister could also be an option, as he too would be her brother in law.

I personally prefer to think it'll be either Jaime or Tyrion but I'm not ruling other people out either.

[King Bronn l]

I still think it's gonna be the high sparrow. He's a brother of the faith, and he's little. Hence the "little brother" part. And he's already got Cersei in his clutches.

[Liliedhe]

I have the feeling it is Kevan.

If the prophecy meant Cersei's little brother, it should have been "your valonquar". "The valonquar" sounds to me like it is meant to be a person who is defined by being the little brother - which neither of Cersei's brothers is. Jaime is the Kingslayer - his defining characteristic is that he is the Kingsguard who killed his king. Tyrion is the Imp, he is defined by his physical deformities. Kevan, on the ohter hand, is defined by being the younger brother, and second of Tywin Lannister. This is remarked upon by Tyrion, and later by Genna - Kevan was always content to play the second fiddle to Tywin, to be his right hand man, his helper.

And he has a pretty good reason to want Cersei gone...

[schrecklich]

Hmmm, I couldn't quite tell.  Are some people saying that the valonqar couldn't be female because the prophecy specifies "his hands" and then postulating that Jaime could be the valonqar even though he only has one hand?

ETA: okay, I guess he could use the gold one

Edited by schrecklich, 25 May 2010 - 12:43 PM.

[trawoc]

You are all forgetting that Tyrion married Sansa Stark, therefore making all the Stark kids brother/sister in law to Cersei. With that in mind if you go the genderless route Arya Stark is a prime candidate since Cersei is on her list and she is training to kill, not to mention she is mistaken for a boy a lot. If it has to be strictly male well I doubt Rickon since i can't see him being able to. So that leaves Bran through the use of his powers, his motive would most likely be for the getting thrown off the roof making him a crippled. Or the least likely Jon. I say least likely because though he could do it for revenge for Ned Stark, he strikes me as too much like Ned to break his vows to the Wall so to me his fight brings him no where near Cersei.

[mdirty]

Let me start by saying it will not be Tyrion, I say this for a couple of reasons; first, he is too far away and, at a guess, will not be returning to Westeros until Danerys does, and long after Cersei is dead. Second, that is what Cersei expects and hence, too obvious; and where prophecy is concerned, GRRM is anything but, so far as the characters involved are concerned at any rate.

Our next suspect is Jaime, an obvious choice to us as readers, who have the advantage of being on the outside looking in; however, there are some major flaws in this argument as well, first and foremost, Jaime himself. From our first look inside his head at the beginning of ASoS to his final chapter in AFfC Jaime as a person has changed drastically; simply put, thanks to Brienne and Vargo Hoat, he has learned some humility and in greater measure shame. It seems to me that "Strangled his sister." is not something worthy for him to write down in the White Book, and therefore not something that he would be willing to do; furthermore, he doesn't hate her or blame her, but instead seems to blame himself for not seeing the truth of her sooner. Finally, same as Tyrion, distance from King's Landing is a factor; The Faith is not going to wait forever before trying her, and seeing that he burned her letter, Jaime is obviously in no hurry to get back there.

In my opinion, eliminating Tyrion and Jaime leaves only one more obvious choice, Lancel Lannister, who has both motive (in love with Cersei), and opportunity (in service to The Faith in King's Landing), and also can satisfy the "Valonqar" requirement; here's how. Lancel has given up his lands and titles to join one of The Faith's three reinstated monastic orders, the "Warriors Sons" and as a young new recruit of said order, would most likely be referred to as brother, or more likely little brother. One last point, as far as GRRM's writing is concerned, several things so far have happened that at first read seem completely out of the blue, but on subsequent reads are so totally foreshadowed as to make a person feel silly for missing them, this theory just seems to fit. Thoughts?

Edited by mdirty, 08 November 2010 - 09:07 PM.

[uncle fester]

Shewoman, on 15 September 2008 - 10:15 PM, said:

The word "valonqar" may be gender neutral, but the prophecy specifically says the valonqar will put "his" hands around her throat.

It also says "hands". Jamie only has one.

[Tammy]

trawoc, on 08 November 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

You are all forgetting that Tyrion married Sansa Stark, therefore making all the Stark kids brother/sister in law to Cersei. With that in mind if you go the genderless route Arya Stark is a prime candidate since Cersei is on her list and she is training to kill, not to mention she is mistaken for a boy a lot. If it has to be strictly male well I doubt Rickon since i can't see him being able to. So that leaves Bran through the use of his powers, his motive would most likely be for the getting thrown off the roof making him a crippled. Or the least likely Jon. I say least likely because though he could do it for revenge for Ned Stark, he strikes me as too much like Ned to break his vows to the Wall so to me his fight brings him no where near Cersei.

I like this.  I hadn't realized the prophecy said "the volanqar" though, which makes the whole thing intriguing.  I was rooting for Jaime at that point being the volanqar just because I'd like to see it, but either Arya or Kevan would make me happy as well.

[wombat1138]

How about this: Tommen appoints his three black kittens (the spawn of Rhaenys' black at Balerion, and thus the three heads of the dragon) as his "Hands of the King". They catpile themselves onto Cersei's neck as she sleeps and they crush the life out of her pale white throat.

(I swear my cats try this on me sometimes, though with them it's more like collapsing my ribcage.)

More seriously, though-- why shouldn't it refer to "The King's Hand" in some way, rather than the valonqar (whoever he is) personally dirtying his own two hands?

[Jenny of Oldstones]

Okay, everyone thinks Tommen and Myrcella will need to be crowned for this prophecy to pass.  Not true!  Gold will be their crowns.  Now who else do we know that received a golden crown in this series?  Viserys--but it wasn't the crown he was expecting.  Why can't the same apply to C.ersei's children--their golden crowns don't have to be literal.  Personally I think they already have received their golden crowns--the long blond curls that everyone makes a huge deal about that basically started everyone into looking into whether or not these kids are bastards.  I think this will lead into the next part about the golden shrouds--it will come to light that these kids are in fact Cersei and Jaime's and not truly Baratheons, and when they die they will be buried in golden shrouds, the color of House Lannister.

[Zar Lannister]

Would Stannis count as a valonquar? He's still Robert's younger sibling.

[Tammy]

Jenny of Oldstones, on 16 August 2011 - 01:34 PM, said:

Okay, everyone thinks Tommen and Myrcella will need to be crowned for this prophecy to pass.  Not true!  Gold will be their crowns.  Now who else do we know that received a golden crown in this series?  Viserys--but it wasn't the crown he was expecting.  Why can't the same apply to C.ersei's children--their golden crowns don't have to be literal.  Personally I think they already have received their golden crowns--the long blond curls that everyone makes a huge deal about that basically started everyone into looking into whether or not these kids are bastards.  I think this will lead into the next part about the golden shrouds--it will come to light that these kids are in fact Cersei and Jaime's and not truly Baratheons, and when they die they will be buried in golden shrouds, the color of House Lannister.

You have a very good point about them not being literal crowns.  They do all have crowns of gold, as in hair.  The only thing that makes me wonder though is that Tommen and Joffrey already have worn their golden crowns so it would seem that the prophecy relates to the crown itself.  Maybe she'll be crowned queen of some other place though?