Valonqar; A double bluff?

[Elindomiel]

I think it will be Jaime. But I like the idea of either Bran or even Rickon, really. Because if you think of it in terms of 'the' valonqar, 'the little brother' who she had more or less forgotten... it might work well.

[Shewoman]

The word "valonqar" may be gender neutral, but the prophecy specifically says the valonqar will put "his" hands around her throat.

[lordofthesox]

For those who are proposing people other than Tyrion/Jaime, how Martin will reconcile this event with the prophecy? So far in this series, prophecies have been a major theme and they've usually been regarded as accurate, i.e. Melissandre, the house of the undying, the prince that was promised, and AA reborn, and yet, there are examples where prophecies have either failed or have at least been allowed considerable room for interpretation, i.e. the stallion that mounts the world. However, it is clear that the maegi who delievered Cersei's prophecies has credibility, i.e. she predicted Cersei killing her friend and marrying Robert, Robert's bastards, etc, and their results have all been very direct and in line with the prophecies. So where is the wiggle room in the valonqar prophecy? How will Martin make it an effective device to allow any little brother to kill her? Or do you think Qyburn's statement that the morrow can be changed will prove true and Cersei will manage to avoid the prophecy?

Say Benjen Stark kills her, what can he do that won't leave us readers scratching our heads? Of all the people in the world, a majority of them are probably younger siblings, did the maegi really leave her prophecy open to approximately 50% of the world? She was pretty specific in the past. I'm not totally discounting all possibilities, but I don't think Martin is trying to completely fool us with every word in the book. I think there is still plenty of drama and good storytelling that would go into Jaime or Tyrion killing her, and I can't find this in Benjen Stark or whatever other little brother we know coming out of nowhere to kill her. The only advantage right now that I see to any little brother killing her is the fact that the reader wouldn't have predicted the killer, that doesn't seem like enough to warrant such an occurrence.

[eddsmonkey]

i personally think that the valonquar is going to be the Hound. I can see Cersei somehow getting Gregorstein to be her champion against the faith and the Hound comes out of hiding to fight his big brother. Hence the "little brother" kills not only Gregor, but he also condemns Cersei to death, figurativley strangling her if you will

[Elindomiel]

I didn't think of the hound, but I like the idea. I agree that it's not just going to be any valonqar, anyone's little brother. But while I still think it will be Jaime (or maybe Tyrion), I don't think it would be too crazy for it to be someone else who would be identified as a little brother above other things. Like I said, this could possibly apply to Bran or Rickon, as much is made of the Stark family and we start by seeing them all together. And it applies even better to the Hound, because there were only two of them, and Cersei would be more likely to think of him as a younger brother (not of herself, but as the younger brother of the mountain).

[Shewoman]

Remember that the prophecy refers to the valonqar as male: "his hands."

[garfner]

Kevan Lannister walks into Cersei's cell.

Cercei: It took you long enough. Be a good uncle and fetch my crown.

Kevin: We didnt come for you. We came for Tommen's bride.

Cersei: But but what about me?

Kevin: Well, I actually found you dead.

Cersei: Dead? What are you talking abo.... Hey what are you doing? Let go!! No wait gag your the gurgle Valonqar!!

Keven leaves the cell dusting off his hands: What the hell is a Valonqar?

[Denver]

[quote name='garfner' post='1521224' date='Sep 16 2008, 22.18']Kevan Lannister walks into Cersei's cell.

Cercei: It took you long enough. Be a good uncle and fetch my crown.

Kevin: We didnt come for you. We came for Tommen's bride.

Cersei: But but what about me?

Kevin: Well, I actually found you dead.

Cersei: Dead? What are you talking abo.... Hey what are you doing? Let go!! No wait gag your the gurgle Valonqar!!

Keven leaves the cell dusting off his hands: What the hell is a Valonqar?[/quote]

Hear, hear!


If it's going to be a little brother other than hers, then I think it would have to be someone who's identity was in part being someone else's little brother. Kevan Lannister.

(The fact that he's a family member strengthens his runner-up status, in my opinion.)

[Andhaira]

[quote name='Denver' post='1521231' date='Sep 17 2008, 00.34']Hear, hear!


If it's going to be a little brother other than hers, then I think it would have to be someone who's identity was in part being someone else's little brother. Kevan Lannister.

(The fact that he's a family member strengthens his runner-up status, in my opinion.)[/quote]

Kevan lannister is a good candidate, but IMO Kevan is in control of himself. Recall how he reacted while cersei flung wine in his face...SUPER cool. :D


But anyhow I think the valonqar could be Victarion Greyjoy!! The flashbacks of mauling his own wife make it seem he will kill other women yet.

However another candidate could be the Hound, because Cersei's reanimating Gregor will force the Hound to give up his new peaceful life!

[Winter Roses]

Hmm... to the OP, I think it's possible that the word [i]valonqar[/i] could literally mean small brother- it's not like we know everything about the Valyrian language. I think it quite likely that Tyrion is the [i]valonqar[/i]. After all, he's already strangled a woman, and fantasized about strangling Cersei. I mean, why can't Cersei be right about Tyrion being the one? It's not like he doesn't hate her and want her dead, especially after she nearly had him executed for something he didn't do.

I think it's also possible that it's Jaime. He's the younger twin, he's felt increasingly betrayed by her, and he seems to be developing an attachment to Tommen. If Tommen died, perhaps that would push Jaime over the edge. I hope Jaime isn't the [i]valonqar[/i] though, it would make me ;_;

Personally, I think there's something weird about the term "the [i]valonqar[/i]" Why "the" instead of "your"? Why a Valyrian word instead of "younger brother" in the Common Tongue? This makes me think that it -should- be considered that the [i]valonqar[/i] could be someone other than one of Cersei's brothers. My money is on Arya Stark, not because of her being a younger sibling but because of her Faceless Man training. I think it very possible that Arya will kill Tyrion and/or Jaime and take over their appearance to strangle Cersei. The Faceless Men have ties to old Valyria, and this might explain the strange wording, "the [i]valonqar[/i]". So in this case the killer *would* be one of Cersei's younger brothers, yet it's -not- her brother.

Plus, Cersei is on Arya's list.

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1481484' date='Aug 15 2008, 07.08']Tommen's dying doesn't preclude him from subsequently strangling Cersei however.[/quote]

I agree with this. I read a theory that someone posted somewhere that said Tommen could strangle Cersei as a wight, and I think that's an interesting idea. This could also explain the strange detached wording of "the [i]valonqar[/i]". I think some people guess that Tommen is the one because Maggy said the [i]valonqar[/i] sentence as part of the answer to Cersei's question about whether she and the king would have children, so Maggy's words end up seeming in context to read as something like:

"Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the younger brother (among the children) will wrap his hands about your white throat and choke the life from you."

I think it would be out of character for Tommen to strangle his mother, but it wouldn't be out of character for a wight to do it. And this way Cersei would still see all three of her children die. I'm not completely convinced, however, since it seems like all three of the children have to be crowned and it now seems unlikely that Myrcella will be crowned unless Tommen dies, so Tommen would have all this time to be dead and rotting while Myrcella is being crowned and then dying herself.

Anyway, I think Kevan and the Hound are interesting ideas also. ^^ Well, we really don't have enough information yet to conclusively say who it can or can't be- I mean, really, even if it sounds like crack, we *can't* prove that it -isn't- one of the 5000000 random younger brothers of Westeros. I don't think so, but it's possible. I'm sure that whatever GRRM does will be surprising and interesting. :-) Maybe there is no [i]valonqar[/i] or prophecy and Cersei is just crazy. :D

[Elindomiel]

[quote name='Winter Roses' post='1522144' date='Sep 17 2008, 16.46']Personally, I think there's something weird about the term "the [i]valonqar[/i]" Why "the" instead of "your"? Why a Valyrian word instead of "younger brother" in the Common Tongue? This makes me think that it -should- be considered that the [i]valonqar[/i] could be someone other than one of Cersei's brothers. My money is on Arya Stark, not because of her being a younger sibling but because of her Faceless Man training. I think it very possible that Arya will kill Tyrion and/or Jaime and take over their appearance to strangle Cersei. The Faceless Men have ties to old Valyria, and this might explain the strange wording, "the [i]valonqar[/i]". So in this case the killer *would* be one of Cersei's younger brothers, yet it's -not- her brother.[/quote]

Yes, this is exactly what I was thinking!

"Then the little brother will wrap his hands around your neck" raises suspicions, because it would normally be "Then your little brother" or something like that.

But it hinds behind the Valyrian, which is used without any other good explanation that I can see... except that it distracts the reader from the article. The more and more I think about, the more I come just about even between thinking it will be Jaime or someone else's little brother.

I like your point, too, about how it's next to the children. Translate Valonqar as you did, and the juxtaposition seems suggesting.

[Anath]

Hey, why does everyone think that Tommen and Myrcella are due to die? I haven't read the fourth book in English, only in my native language, but I think there was no mentioning of 'death', only of taking away everything Cersei holds dear. There are other ways of losing something. Is it impossible that Tommen and Myrcella - they seem like good kids - would reject their horror of a mother and transfer their loyalty to the other queen? Then, there will be no need of dying, but Cersei would have still lost them.

[Elindomiel]

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it does. The prophecy says, "Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds" (may be a word off here).

And a shroud is *almost* always the garment that covers a body after death. I mean, Martin could do something funny and use shroud to mean some other kind of garment, but that would seem odd, even for GRRM, because it's not really a creative double meaning...

[garfner]

[quote]I agree with this. I read a theory that someone posted somewhere that said Tommen could strangle Cersei as a wight, and I think that's an interesting idea.[/quote]


Yikes! Thats very morbid but if there is one person who deserves it it would be Cersei.

[Bryce Fischer]

I always got the impression that the prophesy wasn't to be taken literally. That in Feast for Crows, Cersei has become so paranoid and obsessed with Tyrion and its really clouding her judgment. The decisions she has made because of this seems to be bringing about her downfall.

* Cersei believes Tyrion killed her son.
* Tyrion has, in a somewhat passive way, turned Jaime against Cersei
* Tyrion killed their father.
* Tyrion has made multiple threats toward Cersei and her brood.
* Tyrion escapes from prison. Cersei believes just about everyone was a part of it. Especially the Tyrells
* Vary's disappears at the same time Tyrion escapes.

Now, because of the above events, Cersei has made the following moves:

* Partially because of her suspicions of the Tyrells, she makes numerous moves to try to remove them from Kings Landing.
* Because Tyrion killed their father, Tywin is no longer around to keep her reigned in.

Now, don't get me wrong. She has made a lot of boneheaded moves independent of Tyrion... It just seems her paranoia over him has really gotten to her and clouded her judgement

Most likely entirely wrong, but that's the impression I got.

[Anath]

Sorry, it turns out that I've sent the same post twice and I have no idea how to delete this one.

[Anath]

[quote name='Elindomiel' post='1522320' date='Sep 17 2008, 19.31']Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it does. The prophecy says, "Gold will be their crowns and gold their shrouds" (may be a word off here).

And a shroud is *almost* always the garment that covers a body after death. I mean, Martin could do something funny and use shroud to mean some other kind of garment, but that would seem odd, even for GRRM, because it's not really a creative double meaning...[/quote]

Oh! I am sad. I really like Tommen and Myrcella and Trystane are probably the cutest couple in the whole series, just think of how he wanted to be near her, when she was supposedly ill. I can only hope that Martin will let something nice happen, for a change, and find a way to let them live. After all, no one specifically said that the children had to die before Cersei. Yes, it was strongly implicated, but come on, Martin knows how to give the events unexpected turn. Do it again, Mr Martin, and this time not for bad.
I am inclined to believe that the Valonqar is Jaime - he has two hands again and even if he can't use his golden one to actually strangle Cersei with, he can still use it to force her stay immobile, while his OTHER hand does the noble deed. And I can't believe that the loss of the hand that he was holding Cersei's foot with at their birth doesn't have a hidden meaning.

[drogan]

I think that the young queen in the prophecy from maegi is danny and not marjory

and the valonqar is jaime, that's just my opninion

[dolorouseddwasright]

If by Valonquar we mean small brother could this refer to the begging brothers of The Faith? Could this mean that The Faith will be responsible for Cersei's death?

Even better, and this just occurred to me, Sandor Clegane kills Cersei. He is both a little brother, to Gregor, and a brother of The Faith now. If the trial by combat comes to Gregorstein versus Brother Sandor, and Sandor wins, this could actually come to pass.

[Enteril]

I like Myrcella a lot too, and it's sad that she and Tommen are probably marked for death, because he's just a sweet kid. To be honest, though, Jaime killing Cersei makes such good sense on a storytelling level that I really hope it happens, even if it's indirect. If Jaime shows up at King's Landing anyways to save Cersei I'm going to be mighty pissed.

...on the other hand, if he shows up just to watch her die, then props to him!