Syrio neither dead nor Jaqen

[cybroleach]

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55'][b]1) Why Trant lied to Cersei[/b]
What got me thinking was this comment of Cersei in ACOK:

"I sent Meryn Trant to take her in hand when Robert died, [i]but her wretched dancing master interfered[/i] and the girl fled. No one has seen her since. Likely she’s dead.[i] A great many people died that day[/i]."

Now, first - why does she still think that Syrio was her dancing master? Okay, he's a water dancer and so on, but the "dancing" part was clearly put out by Ned as a way to hide that Arya was actually learning to fight. Sansa at least believes Arya to be dancing in her chapers in AGOT. So why is there either no irony or a realization that Syrio was not, in fact, a dancing master? The training swords and his effortless mauling of 5 Lannister guardsmen would be definite clues, I think. Plus, he actually [i]told [/i] Meryn Trant (and the guards) that he had beed the first sword of Braavos.[/quote]

i thought i'd take the time to deconstruct threw this whole arguement. Here we have 3 alternatives that can easily explain the phrase in context: 1. Cersei may have been under the impression that Syrio "the first sword of Braavos" was a retired guard turned dance master who was Arya's instructor. 2. As has been mentioned "dancing master", could just refence him being a water dancer and Arya's master at arms therefore he's her dancing master. 3. Cersei dosn't care about Syrio enought to make the distinction in her thoughts of Syrio being this or that she heard dancing master and thats how she'd remember him as.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']To my mind, this implies that Cersei does not really know what went on in that room. This would mean that Trant did not tell her the truth. Now, if he and the guards had eventually killed the dacing master, who had turned out to be the First Sword of Braavos, it would not have been a shame to tell the tale. But if Syrio had escaped, imagine Cersei's reaction to a story like: "Well, the dancing master turned out to be a superfighter from across the narrow sea who mauled us bloody with a wooden stick and then got away. Btw, the girl is gone, too." Yeah, right. Would Cersei have believed that?[/quote]

Why wouldn't she? They'd be hunting down Syrio and see if he coulld help locate Ayra or if he was with her. I don't see how that story is any more crazy than: "Well, the dancing master turned out to be a superfighter from across the narrow sea who mauled us bloody with a wooden stick and then i gutted him. But, the girl is gone." Which roughly what i expect Meryn and his merry 3 or 4 depending on how many of them lived is any less credible?

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']We have seen how she accuses Pycelle of poisoning Lord Gyles, master of coin, who has been coughing blood for years. When something doesn't go her way, she assumes others to be incompetent.[/quote]

But at this point in the story Cersei was not literally mad like the middle to end of AFFC.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']Better to tell her the tale that Syrio was actually a dancing master and "interfered", maybe threw himself at them and was killed, thus enabling Arya to escape in the confusion of the fighting with the Northerners. It would still be far from glamorous, but better than the truth (supposing Syrio escaped).[/quote]

Consider these issues: 1. what if one of the lannister guards is loyal, and tells Cersei the truth. 2. Arya is found in the company of her dancing master where he goes on to kill more armed guards. Meryn would be short a head pretty quick for this story just to protect an ego he really doesnt care about.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']I wouldn't put such a lie past Trant, who is described as "sly and cruel" by Jaime and who seems to enjoy making others look bad and abusing his power. This shows in the way he treats Jaime at the sept before he recognizes him (just before the Jaime-Cersei reunion) and also in the standoff he has with Tyrion, when the latter comes to King's Landing to take up his duty as Hand.[/quote]

Neither of these ppl are Trant one is Moore and the other Kettleback.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']Furthermore, Cersei seems to "trust" Trant well enough. There are several scenes where she is with Trant, or Trant is with Tommen and neither does she think about this episode or riddicule Trant - and we all know what a shitmouth Cersei is. And maybe more importantly, Jaime doesn't mention the Syrio incident when he has that first talk with all of the Kingsguard. It seems like just the thing everyone would rub into Trant's face - if he had actually told anyone about the incident.[/quote]

I can't see Cersei loosing any more trust in "one of her most loyal subjects who over the past fifteen years she's been coosing to her side" for having to fight and kill a guard of Arya that aided her escape, than for letting a dance instrutor get in the way and have the Arya escape.
[b]AND where exactly would this mistrust lead? [/b] What motive could Cersei possible come up with for Meryn not wanting to do his job?

I don't see why Jaime would feel the need to bring this up even if he was told the tale which I'd say he likely doesn't know. Matter of fact there conversation highlights just the type of dog like mind Meryn his master says do, he does, not plan out coy little answers that make him look pretty infront of his superiors.


[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']Now would it have been possible to hide 5 wounded and 1 dead guardsmen plus assert that the dancing master had died? Sure! As Cersei herself mentions: "A great many people died that day". A few more dead and wounded could easily be explained away in the chaos and the guardsmen themselves probably wouldn't want the story to come out either.[/quote]

Sure this IS possible but now Meryn a man not considered smart by many ppl is crafting another story with these guards. That somehow they ran into someone else who injured them all.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']There is of course still the possiblity that Syrio just died in the fight against Meryn Trant, I won't deny that. I think it strange, however, that we don't hear anything about it later on. Ned Stark mentions Syrio's formidable reputation. Surely beating him would be choice gossip and something for Trant to brag with. Furthermore, my argument doesn't answer the question of how Syrio escaped - assuming he wasn't killed. I suppose he could have knocked Trant unconscious or thrown him on him back, thus defeating him without killing him.[/quote]

Come on how is it worth it for Ser Meryn of the KG to kill some acient man from braavos with no sword or armour accompanied by 6 Red Cloaks bragable even Ser Boros would laugh at him if he tried.
I don't see how old little Syrio is going to throw an armoured sword in hand helmet wearing Ser Meryn nor knock unconscious? Do the Braavos know some sort of Judo flip for just the occasion of about to be cut in half by a swordsman outweighing you by 100-150 lbs?

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1575502' date='Nov 3 2008, 11.55']Or he did actually just run. It is true, he said that the first sowrd of Braavos does not run - but he is not the first sword of Braavos anymore.[/quote]

It'd be quite poor writing to read that seen: Meryn slashes his sword down in a killing arc, Syrio leaps and rolls than jump to a speedy run. Meryn "ha look at that coward run 'the fist sword of braavos does not run' unless he meets a better man." Syrio while hopping merrily away "i tricked you i'm not the first sword of braavos ...anymore hehe."


Edited to add:
Syrio using a Westerosi sword, the fact that he has distain for these weapons is evidince that he wouldn't have extensive training with one, water Dancing doesn't equte to broadsword training, where even Jaime a great swordsman admits even Ser Boros would clobber him with all his knowledge using his untrained hand, Ser Meryn is better than Boros, I'd say its a safe bet wheither Syrio was able to get a sword make some clumsey parries Ser Meryn kills him.

[Vendetto]

[quote]Edited to add:
Syrio using a Westerosi sword, the fact that he has distain for these weapons is evidince that he wouldn't have extensive training with one, water Dancing doesn't equte to broadsword training, where even Jaime a great swordsman admits even Ser Boros would clobber him with all his knowledge using his untrained hand, Ser Meryn is better than Boros, I'd say its a safe bet wheither Syrio was able to get a sword make some clumsey parries Ser Meryn kills him.[/quote]

He was the first sword of Braavos for a reason. I'd say it's a safe bet to say that Syrio trained with different size swords. You train with a heavier sword to make your hand quick with a light one.

I want Syrio to be alive, he was a badass.

[Bittersteel+]

Well, I don't see a proper place for Sirio in the next books :). But look, I'm a reader, not GRRM. And actually what makes this book so marvellous, is a very realistic, but also very unpredictable plot. So I really believe that GRRM has skill enough to put Sirio in a place of ADWD where I will really love him (if GRRM wants it). That's why in my opinion, arguments like "He doesn't fit anymore" are actually speculations on something that we actually cannot estimate, because we are not GRRM.
The qoutations of Cercei to defend the theory that Sirio is alive can be an indirect proof of course, but they are simply not clear enough and can be interpreted in different ways.
In my opinion the most clear argument for Sirio being alive is the fact that a) Arya did not see him dead b) from all the things we learned about Sirio, he was by far more competent fighter than Trant. As I read the book first time I had exactly the same thought as some other people here: So what's the problem with the stick? Let's take the sword. You say, sword's a clumsy one. Well, we speak about the bodyguard of a severeign who lived his life fighting and is able to beat 5 armoured men with a stick - not a sword actually. In the Middle Ages training with different weapons was natural, especially for a high class fighter with "excellent recomendations". I believe that a sword of a Lannister guardman would be quite a good weapon to wield.
As for "time out" thing, Sirio obviously did not need any. The whole fighting on the Middle Age battlefields was about broken weapon and taking a new one right in the middle of a fight. In fact, it was the way how many actually came to their first sword. Furthermore as was already mentioned Sirio was not armoured and could move a lot faster than Trant (in fact even faster than that if we consider that the Sirio's style was actually all about moving). So Trant could flee. Or Sirio could simply leave: After he had rescued the girl there was no more sense in fighting. ..
These are only possibilities of course. But they seem to be rather realistic to me.

[Vendetto]

Exactly. Remember, Arya said that as soon as she saw him in action she knew he was taking it easy on her. He's like the secret service. On speed. Without the addiction.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Bittersteel+' post='1579599' date='Nov 6 2008, 04.44']As for "time out" thing, Sirio obviously did not need any. The whole fighting on the Middle Age battlefields was about broken weapon and taking a new one right in the middle of a fight. In fact, it was the way how many actually came to their first sword.[/quote]
Fighting on battlefields was also about having armor or a shield or [i]something[/i] to stop that cut. Syrio had nothing left.

C'mon, people, see with your [i]eyes[/i] like Arya did. Not with wishful thinking.

[Vendetto]

Time will tell. I don't think that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I do however believe that Syrio survived his encounter with Trant.

Water dancers don't wear armor. They go with speed.

[mormont]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1579642' date='Nov 6 2008, 11.21']Time will tell. I don't think that Syrio and Jaqen are the same person. I do however believe that Syrio survived his encounter with Trant.

Water dancers don't wear armor. They go with speed.[/quote]

Speed is useful. But there's a reason anyone who could afford armour in medieval times wore as much as they could.

The Trant/Syrio fight is a classic example. The unarmoured Syrio can evade most of Trant's blows... but he cannot hurt Trant, and when Trant eventually hits him (as he will) Syrio is done. Take it from me, an inferior fighter will always beat a better one if he doesn't have to worry about defence, and 'speed' will not change this outcome. 100% protection beats 99% evasion.

Syrio is dead.

[Roi Woodt]

As dead as Jaqen, valar morghulis! ;)

[Bittersteel+]

[quote name='mormont' post='1579648' date='Nov 6 2008, 12.32']Speed is useful. But there's a reason anyone who could afford armour in medieval times wore as much as they could.

The Trant/Syrio fight is a classic example. The unarmoured Syrio can evade most of Trant's blows... but he cannot hurt Trant, and when Trant eventually hits him (as he will) Syrio is done. Take it from me, an inferior fighter will always beat a better one if he doesn't have to worry about defence, and 'speed' will not change this outcome. 100% protection beats 99% evasion.[/quote]

That's not exactly so, the Mongolian most powerfull force was light cavalry with no steel armour at all. The Turkish invantry which actually stopped the heavy knight cavalry at Nikopolis didn't have armour near as good as the knights had. Actually in the history there are many and more examples of non-armour beating armour.
A fight one-to-one is different, but also quite possible, you need not search in the history, look into the book One: fight Bronn vs captain of guard.

[SomethingFunny]

I want Syrio to be alive, too, but that's not the point. I only happen to think that he is not definitely dead and that there is a scenario in which he might have escaped and the events in the rest of the books make sense.

@ cybroleach
phew ... let's see what's left of my argument :) You gave me quite a :spank: !

[quote]1. Cersei may have been under the impression that Syrio "the first sword of Braavos" was a retired guard turned dance master who was Arya's instructor. 2. As has been mentioned "dancing master", could just refence him being a water dancer and Arya's master at arms therefore he's her dancing master. 3. Cersei dosn't care about Syrio enought to make the distinction in her thoughts of Syrio being this or that she heard dancing master and thats how she'd remember him as.[/quote]
1. doesn't sound likely, sorry
2. possible, but as the "dancing master" was a disguise used by eddard I think it more likely that she would point out that he was not, in fact, a dancing master. This only holds, [i]if[/i] she cared though, which brings me to:
3. which is both possible and would fit Cersei.

So Cersei's not giving a damn would explain that comment, I agree.

[quote]Why wouldn't she? They'd be hunting down Syrio and see if he coulld help locate Ayra or if he was with her. I don't see how that story is any more crazy than: "Well, the dancing master turned out to be a superfighter from across the narrow sea who mauled us bloody with a wooden stick and then i gutted him. But, the girl is gone."[/quote]
To be fair, the alternative "story" I proposed was that Syrio was an actual dancing master who interfered and was killed in the attempt, thus winning Arya a chance to escape. The point I made was exactly that Trant wanted to avoid mentioning the superfighter because he had been beaten by him (or fled himself, a possibility that was later pointed out). Provided that's what happened, this alternative story would be both less shameful and more believable.

[quote]Consider these issues: 1. what if one of the lannister guards is loyal, and tells Cersei the truth. 2. Arya is found in the company of her dancing master where he goes on to kill more armed guards. Meryn would be short a head pretty quick for this story just to protect an ego he really doesnt care about.[/quote]
1. yeah that's a risk - It might be minimized if he knew the guards and had an opportunity to talk to them before talking to Cersei.
2. yep, that too - however he could only have reported to Cersei after the fighting, when things had cleared up. I expect he would have looked for the girl himself first immedeately and could only have told Cersei after he was convinvec himself that both were gone.

As to his motivation: We don't know how much he cares about his ego. The point I was making is that he might also do it for his self-interest (albeit not completely mad, Cersei was never forgiving).

I concede that that's a lot of "ifs", and nothing certain.

[quote]Neither of these ppl are Trant one is Moore and the other Kettleback.[/quote]
True, my bad.

[quote]I can't see Cersei loosing any more trust in "one of her most loyal subjects who over the past fifteen years she's been coosing to her side" for having to fight and kill a guard of Arya that aided her escape, than for letting a dance instrutor get in the way and have the Arya escape.[/quote]
I agree, all this would only make sense if Trant was beaten or fled himself.

[quote]Matter of fact there conversation highlights just the type of dog like mind Meryn his master says do, he does, not plan out coy little answers that make him look pretty infront of his superiors.[/quote]
He doesn't do so in the scene, no (even though he expresses that he finds Jaime's accusation unfair). However, I don't agree that he has a dog-like mind. Jaime characterizes him as "sly". Cats are sly. Dogs are tractable. We don't know much about his personality either way, as he doesn't have much scenes. Especially as you took away the 2 pretty "Trant-scenes" I picked out :)

[quote]Meryn "ha look at that coward run 'the fist sword of braavos does not run' unless he meets a better man." Syrio while hopping merrily away "i tricked you i'm not the first sword of braavos ...anymore hehe."[/quote]
Ok, totally not Syrio, I agree. I much prefer the version that Syrio picked up a sword and Trant backed out :D.

[quote]Syrio using a Westerosi sword, the fact that he has distain for these weapons is evidince that he wouldn't have extensive training with one, water Dancing doesn't equte to broadsword training[/quote]
I totally disagree on that one. His disdain for westeros weapons is nowhere near "evidence" of anything. His disdain could also mean the exact opposite, namely that he [i]can[/i] use them and disdains them for exactly that reason - because he knows their relative clumsiness well. It's not too much of a stretch to assume Syrio knows how to handle more than one weapon. The point is, [i]we don't know[/i] and there is no evidence for either position.

[b]Now as to the "Syrio would never have a chance fightin 'coz no armor"-argument[/b] put forth by some: I don't think the argument counts for that much. Even the best armour has a weakness: the joints. Plus it's slow. We saw Oberyn Martell beat the Mountain exactly by exploiting that weakness with speed and agility (Oberyn died eventually, but because of his own stupidity, not because of Clegane's armour). True, he had a great reach (spear), which Syrio didn't have, but with Syrio's clearly superior skill winning would surely have been possible.

Well I concede I'm maybe reading too much into Cerseis comment. It all hinges on the extent of Syrios "excellent reputation". If he is not widely known in King's Landing, then it all makes sense - Cersei just didn't care enough to make the differentiation, no-one cares about mentioning him and he's dead. End of story.

But if he was well know, Cerseis comment is still strange and things don't quite fit. Let me quote from[url="http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jaqen_hghar.html"]The Tower of the Hand[/url], because I feel so terribly alone with this view:

"Eddard thinks that Syrio has an 'excellent reputation.' (AGOT p317) This implies that Syrio is a well-known, long-standing personality at King's Landing...."

This is exactly as I see him, also because of how we see other foreign fighters treated at court (Jallabar Xho, Thoros of Myr). During Robert's rule, a skilled foreigner with an unusual fighting style should have had no problem establishing himself in King's Landing, even if tournaments and melees probably weren't Syrios style.

In the end, we have to wait for Martin to reveal it.

[Jon Targaryen]

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1579395' date='Nov 5 2008, 19.03']I want Syrio to be alive, he was a badass.[/quote]

As a general aside, I think this statement shows the [b]reader[/b] motivation behind many of our theories and positions. I have noticed over time that it seems that the Dany haters think she will die in the East or "just go away" while the Dany lovers think she will save Westeros then die or survive the series and reign as queen. Jaime haters think he could die at any time while Jaime lovers see him dying nobly or surviving his inevitable encounter with Dany. This applies to Syrio who is definitely the Boba Fett of this series (that is, before the prequel trilogy).

My point is that it might be helpful to look at our feelings toward a character before thinking of his future arc and posting a prediction or theory.

Just a thought ... :)

[mormont]

[quote name='Bittersteel+' post='1579749' date='Nov 6 2008, 14.15']That's not exactly so, the Mongolian most powerfull force was light cavalry with no steel armour at all. The Turkish invantry which actually stopped the heavy knight cavalry at Nikopolis didn't have armour near as good as the knights had. Actually in the history there are many and more examples of non-armour beating armour.
A fight one-to-one is different, but also quite possible, you need not search in the history, look into the book One: fight Bronn vs captain of guard.[/quote]

I think you're arguing against a point I never made, to some extent. Certainly if you think that light cavalry defeating heavy cavalry disproves it: that's comparing apples with oranges, on several levels.

My point was that armour is the best defence for an individual, far superior to 'speed'. This can be seen by the fact that wherever heavy armour was available, it was used. But I am not claiming that the heaviest-armoured side in any battle would invariably win. [i]Where armour was not available[/i], people developed alternative tactics and fighting styles which tried to compensate for the lack. Some of these were successful, but none were actually [i]preferred[/i] to armour, at least until the development of firearms.

Bronn against Eggen is an interesting comparison, but still not a refutation. You need to look at that fight more carefully. Bronn does not fight [i]un[/i]armoured: he wears light armour. He is therefore mixing speed and protection, not relying on speed. He couples this with greater reach, greater stamina, and greater skill than his opponent. Add to all this the fact that Eggen underestimates him and is under pressure to take him out quickly.

And Bronn uses all this deliberately for a specific aim - which is [i]not[/i] defence. It's to make Eggen overexert himself, to exploit his inferior physical fitness. (Based on my own limited experience of fighting in armour, by the way, I feel GRRM exaggerates the degree to which it tires Eggen. But it's poetic license, so fair enough.)

Two other things must be said about this fight: first, Bronn knows himself that these tactics are unreliable. He (rightly) refuses to try them against Gregor. And second, and most crucially, Bronn actually has a weapon that can hurt Eggen.

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1579788' date='Nov 6 2008, 15.00'][b]Now as to the "Syrio would never have a chance fightin 'coz no armor"-argument[/b] put forth by some: I don't think the argument counts for that much. Even the best armour has a weakness: the joints. Plus it's slow. We saw Oberyn Martell beat the Mountain exactly by exploiting that weakness with speed and agility (Oberyn died eventually, but because of his own stupidity, not because of Clegane's armour). True, he had a great reach (spear), which Syrio didn't have, but with Syrio's clearly superior skill winning would surely have been possible.[/quote]

On the Oberyn/Gregor fight, you're correct that the killer advantage Oberyn uses is reach. The moment he gives up that advantage, he dies. Reach is a huge advantage because it affords 100% protection as long as it can be maintained. If I can hit you but you can't reach me, I will eventually win.

Speed and agility alone don't give you that protection. They are among the tools that allow Oberyn to maintain his reach advantage, to be fair, but again, there's no comparison with Syrio/Trant. Syrio not only has no reach advantage, he has no way to hurt Trant at all. Just as speed alone doesn't allow you to be invulnerable, skill alone doesn't allow you to penetrate armour.

Let's make it as clear as possible: to beat an armed, armoured knight, you need more than skill and speed alone. You need arms and armour, and Syrio didn't have them. Ergo, he did not win, and is dead.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='mormont' post='1580249' date='Nov 6 2008, 15.33']Let's make it as clear as possible: to beat an armed, armoured knight, you need more than skill and speed alone. You need arms and armour, and Syrio didn't have them. Ergo, he did not win, and is dead.[/quote]


You only need arms not armor. A water dancer is trained to fight with no armor against opponents with rapiers, foils and epées witch are hands down faster than any other type of sword. A fully armored knight with a long sword or broad sword would have a very hard time hitting a water dancer. Add to that the fact that Syrio is by far more skilled and experienced at dueling. If he had a fencing sword he could have easily killed Trant. And I think even unarmed or with an inferior (to him) weapon that he got from one of the fallen guards he still had a good chance of escaping

[Sir MidKnight]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1576724' date='Nov 4 2008, 10.18']I just loved that scene with Arya running out crying and seeing with her eyes.
I thought it was one of the best scenes in the first book.[/quote]


That scene remains one of my favorite scenes in the entire series, maybe my single favorite.

Syrio taught Arya more than just swordsmanship. He gave her lessons to use for the rest of her life. I believe Syrio's final lesson was about love and sacrifice.

[bacchys]

[quote name='SomethingFunny' post='1578501' date='Nov 5 2008, 09.51']No, that's Mandon Moore (the one who chops off Tyrion's nose). Here's from ACOK:
"Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next."

Trant is described as only an adequate fighter (though not as bad as Boros Blount).[/quote]
You're right. Sheesh. My memory is taking a beating these days. I may have to break down and do a re-read. Not that that is any great sacrifice.

Trant is still a pre-Cersei KG, which I think supports a view of him as a capable knight. However less they were than Aerys's seven, I doubt Robert and Barristan would appoint mediocre fighters or poor fighters. He may not have been close to Jaime's skill or one of the best in the land, but imo we shouldn't regard him as incapable or inadequate.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Bittersteel+' post='1579749' date='Nov 6 2008, 09.15']A fight one-to-one is different, but also quite possible, you need not search in the history, look into the book One: fight Bronn vs captain of guard.[/quote]
This is apples and oranges. Bronn was armoured. He had a helmet, mail, shield, and a steel sword to parry with. If Bronn was equipped the same way Syrio was, Tyrion would have made his exit from the Eyrie by the Moon Door instead of the turnip winch.

ETA: I should have read all the posts before responding. Mormont covered what I said the much more thoroughly, and even included the apples and oranges.


[quote]You only need arms not armor. A water dancer is trained to fight with no armor against opponents with rapiers, foils and epées witch are hands down faster than any other type of sword. A fully armored knight with a long sword or broad sword would have a very hard time hitting a water dancer. Add to that the fact that Syrio is by far more skilled and experienced at dueling. If he had a fencing sword he could have easily killed Trant. And I think even unarmed or with an inferior (to him) weapon that he got from one of the fallen guards he still had a good chance of escaping[/quote]
The problem is, Syrio had [i]neither[/i]. He had a wooden stick that was cut in half when he tried to parry one of Trant's slashes. People seem to want him to snatch up a sword from the ground, [i]but what does he parry with while he's bending down to do that?[/i] Answer: nothing.

On 'we'll have to wait and see what the answer is in future books': what makes anyone think this will be addressed any further? Are we also waiting for GRRM to reveal in a shocking revelation: 'and Ned Stark's decapitation, which I've already made abundantly clear, and have given no reason to doubt...really did happen!!!'

gasp.

[cybroleach]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1580505' date='Nov 6 2008, 20.19']The problem is, Syrio had [i]neither[/i]. He had a wooden stick that was cut in half when he tried to parry one of Trant's slashes. People seem to want him to snatch up a sword from the ground, [i]but what does he parry with while he's bending down to do that?[/i] Answer: nothing.[/quote]

To be fair it takes what 1/100 of a sec for Syrio to grab a discarded sword, sure he's old but he's still lightening fast, all it takes is him dodging one swing from Meryn and he be able to get a sword.

[Vendetto]

The whole armor vs. no armor argument is illogical because:

Syrio already killed 5 armored men. With a stick. 1 more isn't going to be that much more of a hassel to keep away. Even if it's just long enough for him to run away.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1580592' date='Nov 6 2008, 21.22']To be fair it takes what 1/100 of a sec for Syrio to grab a discarded sword, sure he's old but he's still lightening fast, all it takes is him dodging one swing from Meryn and he be able to get a sword.[/quote]
I[i] highly[/i] doubt he could pick a sword off the ground in 1/100 of a second.

[quote name='Vendetto' post='1580602' date='Nov 6 2008, 21.29']The whole armor vs. no armor argument is illogical because:

Syrio already killed 5 armored men. With a stick. 1 more isn't going to be that much more of a hassel to keep away.[/quote]
None of whom were as well armoured as Trant. Bare hands, unarmoured legs, faces, and necks...all things Syrio exploited that would not work against Trant. He also got them to kill each other, which would not work fighting a single man.

Let's look at it this way: if Syrio's prospects for defeating Trant were as good as people wish, why does Arya, who he's trained to see things realistically, conclude the very opposite? Why, if he was so good he could beat a knight of the KG with a stick, did he order her to flee on her own, instead of helping her more in her escape? The realistic interpretation is that he did everything possible by stalling the pursuers, and could ultimately do no more because he was dead.

[ogbebaba]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1580659' date='Nov 6 2008, 21.55']None of whom were as well armoured as Trant. Bare hands, unarmoured legs, faces, and necks...all things Syrio exploited that would not work against Trant. He also got them to kill each other, which would not work fighting a single man.

Let's look at it this way: if Syrio's prospects for defeating Trant were as good as people wish, why does Arya, who he's trained to see things realistically, conclude the very opposite? Why, if he was so good he could beat a knight of the KG with a stick, did he order her to flee on her own, instead of helping her more in her escape? The realistic interpretation is that he did everything possible by stalling the pursuers, and could ultimately do no more because he was dead.[/quote]

syrio's prospects for defeating trant were very bad

he has no weapon in hand and all the weapons he has access to are not the right kind
I said if he had the right weapon. Fencing swords are perfect for exploiting armor they bend and slip through cracks in plate or scale and go right through leather and chain mail to pierce the skin and let the blood flow. All the weapons lying on the ground at his feet would only be good for parrying blows until he can escape. This is what any smart man would do after he gave arya time to get away.