Israeli-Palestinian peace

[Nous]

This thread is for brainstorming possible solutions to Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In real brainstorming, there should be no criticism, but I doubt there's much chance of that here. Nonetheless, the focus should be on solutions. Moral-historical arguments are fine, but they should be made in the context of a possible solution, not to prove that your side is morally right to do whatever they are doing or have done.

War will continue as long as the will and the means to prosecute it exist on either side. I'd like it if your proposed solutions contained an explanation on how these will be removed. Also, the solution should be from a point of view of an actor, meaning the party who'll implement it.

[Nous]

Just to get this out of the way, here is a solution you can implement personally. First, you must train your mind and body until you reach the pinnacle of human potential. After that, you should fight crime for a while and leverage your notoriety to amass a sizable fortune. Then create a nightmarish giant squid (non-kosher, non-halal) with a cloned brain of Uri Geller and teleport it to Jerusalem.

[EHK for Darwin]

Well, I'll second Bronn's solution:

[quote]The ONLY hope for peace is an offer of GENEROUS terms by Israel. 1967 borders. No wall anywhere but on the Israeli side of those borders. Recognition of any government the Palestinians choose to set above themselves.

The scraps of Gaza offered so far are an insult. The scraps of the West Bank so far not even offered are worse.

Jerusalem is the biggest problem. But with 100% concession on the other two, the Israelis might just find that those weary of the conflict are willing to accept adjustments there as well.

But as long as ONE West Bank settlement remains on the wrong side of 1967, you are JUST as wrong as they are. And you'll never have the idyllic lifestyle of a people at peace. True peace is a faint hope, given the recent history. But a greater hope than the foolish course you persist on following.[/quote]

And also add (as I did in the other thread) that it doesn't even have to be negotiated. Israeli's have the ability to impose this unilaterally. Further it will likely be acceptable to and deemed fair enough by the international community. (I also explain why in the other thread) And I suspect there will be enough war weary Palestinians to make it acceptable to them even without Jerusalem. And it doesn't much matter if it doesn't. Israel can build its wall and ensure its security whether they comply or not.

[Altherion]

I will repeat what I said in the other thread: deal with the supporters of the terrorist organizations, one way or another. The fighting will not stop as long as somebody with a whole lot more resources than the Palestinians is giving some of them money to continue it. Iran funds, arms and trains Hezbollah; I don't know who is doing the same for Hamas, but they're not acting alone.

[Shryke]

Ahh, so the roots of terror are in the bank accounts of foreigners?

[Altherion]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1633704' date='Dec 30 2008, 08.51']Ahh, so the roots of terror are in the bank accounts of foreigners?[/quote]
The roots of terror are in many places, but the means by which it operates are in the bank accounts of foreigners. Where do you think these organizations get their money and weapons?

[Shryke]

[quote name='Altherion' post='1633706' date='Dec 30 2008, 02.57']The roots of terror are in many places, but the means by which it operates are in the bank accounts of foreigners. Where do you think these organizations get their money and weapons?[/quote]

Lack of money won't solve the problems that are causing the terrorism in the first place.

[Laron]

I think the ideal goal would be a kind of "Belgium in the Middle East", i. e. a secular state for both nationalities with equal rights for all.

[Galactus]

[quote]I think the ideal goal would be a kind of "Belgium in the Middle East", i. e. a secular state for both nationalities with equal rights for all.[/quote]

It's popped up from time to time (first attempt was in the 20's I think?) but has always been rejected by both sides.

I'd argue that the first step will have to be simply start talking: And I think *this* is where Israel has to make the major concession (from what I've seen the actual issues that would be negotiated aren't *that* troublesome, the issue is to get talking in the first place) because no palestinian government can offer a deal that they can keep unless they get some indication they might get a deal that is acceptable.

The Right of Return is, I think, largely a prestige question: I suspect some kind of arrangement could be made that smoothes palestinian feathers and still allows Israel to (for the foreseeable future at least) keep it's precious jewish majority: Some kind of compensation scheme perhaps, or a limited return for the actual survivors. The issue isn't so much actual return as the fact that Palestinians want acknowledgement that the Israeli actions during and after the war were wrong.

Water and the settlements I suspect are the bigger problems. Most of the settlements would have to go, but it gets complicated with the larger ones. One solution is to simply hand them over to the palestinian's on condition that they let the settlers remain. (which I'd love to see simply becuase you'd hear the screaming (fundies on both sides) all the way here) water-rights are likewise difficult but not unsurmountable.

Again, the issue is to *get the sides talking*. Serious talks, not just showing off for the camera, but actual, nitty-gritty hammering out the details. And that's where I don't know the solution.

[Stego]

Death to Israel and Peace are mutually exclusive.

[shadowbinding shoe]

Force the Egyptian and Jordanian governments to take back the territories they lost in 1967. Seeing as they have proved they can be sanely negotiated with as opposed to the various Palestinian organizations I'd say give them back the responsibility.

Included in this must be giving citizenship and rights to all those Palestinians living in the Arab countries. They lived their whole lives there and its about time they'd be given such basic things from those who claim brotherhood to them.

So I'm talking about peace treaty with the Arab world instead of with Palestinian organizations. There's a Saudi peace proposal that might be used there.

I'm pretty optimistic about this. Already the border between Egypt and Gaza is starting to get torn down and a very heavy pressure on Egypt to help the Gaza residents is made by the Arab and Muslim world. I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes fact within a week.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I agree generous terms from Israel would help. However, if the Palestinians don't stop the rocket attacks on their borders with Israel no peace will be possible. Israel will continue to retaliate. I wonder if making Jerusalem an open city would hurt or help the process?

[hnv]

best offer Israel could give
gaza+west bank to the palestinian without east jerusalem

[Galactus]

[quote name='Ser Scot A Ellison' post='1633854' date='Dec 30 2008, 13.36']I agree generous terms from Israel would help. However, if the Palestinians don't stop the rocket attacks on their borders with Israel no peace will be possible. Israel will continue to retaliate. I wonder if making Jerusalem an open city would hurt or help the process?[/quote]

The problem is that A) Enforcing a cease-fire would require a palestinian government with much greater prestige than anyone can currently offer, and the only thing that could conceivable grant that prestige is to somehow get an acceptable peace-deal going... Which means that in order to start negotiations negotiations must have already concluded.

B) There is a bit of a catch-22 here: There is a (somewhat justifiable) fear among the palestinians that if they stop the attacks and gives guarantees that would satisfy Israel, that would mean Israel *would have no more incentive to negotiate*. (this was, kinda, what made the Oslo accords break down)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Galactus,

[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1633968' date='Dec 30 2008, 10.26']The problem is that A) Enforcing a cease-fire would require a palestinian government with much greater prestige than anyone can currently offer, and the only thing that could conceivable grant that prestige is to somehow get an acceptable peace-deal going... Which means that in order to start negotiations negotiations must have already concluded.

B) There is a bit of a catch-22 here: There is a (somewhat justifiable) fear among the palestinians that if they stop the attacks and gives guarantees that would satisfy Israel, that would mean Israel *would have no more incentive to negotiate*. (this was, kinda, what made the Oslo accords break down)[/quote]

You miss my point. I don't think ending the attacks should be a precondition to negotiation. I am saying that they've got to stop the attacks before or very shortly after the conclusions of any negotiations. As to your B point how is that negotiating in good faith? It sounds like you are advocating "We'll shoot at you till you give us what we want and when we want more we'll start shooting again."

[sToNED_CAT]

[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1633836' date='Dec 30 2008, 07.41']The Right of Return is, I think, largely a prestige question: I suspect some kind of arrangement could be made that smoothes palestinian feathers and still allows Israel to (for the foreseeable future at least) keep it's precious jewish majority: Some kind of compensation scheme perhaps, or a limited return for the actual survivors. The issue isn't so much actual return as the fact that Palestinians want acknowledgement that the Israeli actions during and after the war were wrong.[/quote]

And what about Jewish refugees? Everyone forgets that almost the same number of Jews fled/were expelled from Arab countries after 1948. Arabs should simply acknowledge that it's 1:1 and assimilate refugees living on their territories.

To the peace treaty - I always said that it will be possible only if West Bank and Gaza will be returned back to Egypt and Jordan. Completely sovereign Palestine would be very similar to 30ties Germany or revanchist France - still dreaming about lost territories and constantly trying to recover them.

[Galactus]

[quote]Everyone forgets that almost the same number of Jews fled/were expelled from Arab countries after 1948.[/quote]

IIRC most of these weren't expelled immediately after 1948, but instead during several successive events (I believe the Suez Crisis saw the largest exodus, the crisis incidentally is almost as pivotal as the 1967 war for solidifying the conflict...)

And yes, they should be allowed to return, naturally, although this would be something that Israel (or whichever country accepted them) would have to settle with the individual arab states, no?

[quote]As to your B point how is that negotiating in good faith? It sounds like you are advocating "We'll shoot at you till you give us what we want and when we want more we'll start shooting again."[/quote]

Which is part of the problem. The only thing the palestinians can offer is A) formal recognition of the state of Israel (which Fatah has already done, mind, but it's still on the table for Hamas) and B) an end to hostilities. Israel has much bigger space to manuever in that regard.

[israfel070]

Unless the widespread calls for total destruction of Israel and all Jews (which is a charter goal of Hamas and most of Israel's border countries) are ended, and by that I mean the hatred that is broadcast daily and indoctrinated to all Arab children, other possible solutions can only be temporary at best

[The Progressive]

Bronn's solution sounds fair and just. I'll also add conditions such as fair market compensation for displaced Palestinians who have lands in Israel and fair distribution of water resources.

That, or perpetual war against a people who don't have anything to lose.

[El-ahrairah]

It only takes one side to start a war, but two are required to establish peace. Until Israel's right to exist is unequivocally recognized by the Arab League states, and the terrorist groups are likewise unequivocally disowned, no end to the conflict is possible.