Israeli-Palestinian peace

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1634561' date='Dec 30 2008, 22.00']Yes becuase just like Hamas, these radical settlers are the government.[/quote]

We're against democracy now? I can't keep track.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1634595' date='Dec 30 2008, 23.14']We're against democracy now? I can't keep track.[/quote]

If you say so.

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1634606' date='Dec 30 2008, 23.29']If you say so.[/quote]

I didn't, you did.

I was just pointing out that if I'm talking about a government unwilling to restrain it's own radical terrorist elements that are only making the situation worse, you've got to ask "Which one?".

Hell, you've got to ask "Which one?" if I start talking about a government run by former terrorists and war criminals.

[snake]

Honestly, why do you people even bother? When the people in the area want peace they'll have it. Right now they don't so why get up in arms over it? I say let the international community monitor and ensure nothing atrocious takes place and other than that leave them to their vicious cycle of violence and hate.

Right now it's what they seem to want despite all their protestations to the contrary.

I'm sure there are other places in the world that need and [i]actually want[/i] our help more. Best we try to do good where it is actually possible to do so.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1634620' date='Dec 30 2008, 23.56']I didn't, you did.

I was just pointing out that if I'm talking about a government unwilling to restrain it's own radical terrorist elements that are only making the situation worse, you've got to ask "Which one?".[/quote]

1. I agree with you. But it is all about degrees.

2. There is a difference between the government not properly suppressing the radicals, and the government being the very radicals who need to be suppressed. There needs to be a clearer distinction between the military and political branches of Hamas.

[quote]Hell, you've got to ask "Which one?" if I start talking about a government run by [b]former terrorists and war criminals.[/b][/quote]

Hamas is currently operating as a terrorist organization, while that other shit happened in the 1940s, so I don't understand your point.

[TheKassi]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1634620' date='Dec 30 2008, 20.56']I didn't, you did.[/quote]

Do you actually believe this? Do you actually believe that thinking one group of people made a poor or dangerous choice when they selected their elected officials is the same thing as 'being against' democracy?

[G'Kar]

[quote name='TheKassi' post='1634654' date='Dec 31 2008, 00.32']Do you actually believe this? Do you actually believe that thinking one group of people made a poor or dangerous choice when they selected their elected officials is the same thing as 'being against' democracy?[/quote]

I think you are right Kassi. Democracy is not perfect system to create a government and is not the end-all-be-all to the world's problems. Democracy can fuck things up too. Hell, the Germans voted the Nazis into power (Goodwining is now back in), and we Americans elected George Bush. And while the Palestinians did elect Hamas for more then just their terrorist attacks against Israel, it was still a pretty fucked up thing to do, although it might work out for the best as Hamas has much more street cred than the PLO.

[Daemrion]

[quote]I'm sure there are other places in the world that need and actually want our help more. Best we try to do good where it is actually possible to do so.[/quote]

It is tempting. I do also think that we should put a sustained effort in helping places which want our help, we can't really abandon the Arab-Israeli conflict because it is probably the most likely to spill into all-out-war and probably has sides that don't care about any consequences of their actions. (maybe with the exception of India/Pakistan).

I tend to stay out of these threads (in terms of posting on them) because I'm almost resigned to the fact that there is no possible solution to the problem.

[Piper]

[quote name='Daemrion' post='1634688' date='Dec 31 2008, 01.24']I tend to stay out of these threads (in terms of posting on them) because I'm almost resigned to the fact that there is no possible solution to the problem.[/quote]

In terms of the tragically repetitive and endless tasks on this planet, I think this one rates only somewhat above spending all eternity rolling rocks up hills.

Still beats arguing R + L = J, though :P

[snake]

[quote name='Daemrion' post='1634688' date='Dec 31 2008, 02.24']It is tempting. I do also think that we should put a sustained effort in helping places which want our help, we can't really abandon the Arab-Israeli conflict because it is probably the most likely to spill into all-out-war and probably has sides that don't care about any consequences of their actions. (maybe with the exception of India/Pakistan).[/quote]

I realize this and the above post was merely wishful thinking.

[quote]I tend to stay out of these threads (in terms of posting on them) because I'm almost resigned to the fact that there is no possible solution to the problem.[/quote]

Not in our lifetime anyways.

[snake]

[quote name='Piper' post='1634695' date='Dec 31 2008, 02.31']In terms of the tragically repetitive and endless tasks on this planet, I think this one rates only somewhat above spending all eternity rolling rocks up hills.

Still beats arguing R + L = J, though :P[/quote]

:lol:

At least we can be somewhat optimistic that the question of Jon's parentage will be resolved in this life. :P

[Shryke]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1634667' date='Dec 31 2008, 00.40']I think you are right Kassi. Democracy is not perfect system to create a government and is not the end-all-be-all to the world's problems. Democracy can fuck things up too. Hell, the Germans voted the Nazis into power (Goodwining is now back in), and we Americans elected George Bush. And while the Palestinians did elect Hamas for more then just their terrorist attacks against Israel, it was still a pretty fucked up thing to do, although it might work out for the best as Hamas has much more street cred than the PLO.[/quote]

What made Hamas a bad choice? They were the ones actually helping people, which is the main reason they got elected.

The fact that they are also radical terrorists is sort of a consequence of having no other real options besides the corrupt fuckers nobody trusted anymore and who'd accomplished nothing in years. It's like a 2 party system if you replaced the Democrats with a charity that liked to blow up buildings between food drives.

There's nothing ironic about the Israelis being forced to negotiate with people who hate them. That's mostly all they've left in the area. And they've helped along the "useless do-nothing" image of the only other option quite well, so no wonder their not around.

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='Bruce Galactus' post='1633836' date='Dec 30 2008, 05.41']The Right of Return is, I think, largely a prestige question: I suspect some kind of arrangement could be made that smoothes palestinian feathers and still allows Israel to (for the foreseeable future at least) keep it's precious jewish majority: Some kind of compensation scheme perhaps, or a limited return for the actual survivors. The issue isn't so much actual return as the fact that Palestinians want acknowledgement that the Israeli actions during and after the war were wrong.[/quote]

Quite possibly, but there were contingents for the right of return in the Camp David efforts. An international fund of sorts which Israel (amongst others) would be required to contribute to, to compensate the dispossessed Palestinians. This is really about all the Palestinians can expect to get, or some variation of it, and if Alan Derschouitz (horrible mispelling) is any indicator, this was a bigger sticking point than Jerusalem. Not saying necessarily that Palestinians don't deserve a right to return, just to point out that they don't seem (or at least weren't under arafat at that point) inclined to accept token gestures. Its more than prestige I think.

[quote]Force the Egyptian and Jordanian governments to take back the territories they lost in 1967. Seeing as they have proved they can be sanely negotiated with as opposed to the various Palestinian organizations I'd say give them back the responsibility.[/quote]

Its thinking outside the box I'll give you that, but one of the original justifications for the earliest Israeli West Bank Settlements were to ensure strongpoints for any future Mideast invasion, aka, Security. I doubt they'd be willing to give them back up to the very enemies that invaded them back in the day, even if most have moderated since than.

[quote]best offer Israel could give
gaza+west bank to the palestinian without east jerusalem[/quote]

And I think this would be enough to ensure relative peace (acceptance amongst most Palestinians) and recognition throughout most of the relevant international community.

[quote]Completely sovereign Palestine would be very similar to 30ties Germany or revanchist France - still dreaming about lost territories and constantly trying to recover them.[/quote]

So what? They'd never be in a position to do so. And punishing an over-eager and over-aggressive state would be alot easier than doing the same to a bunch of rival occupied factions.

[quote]In the long run there is only one stable solution possible. What is today Israel, the Gaza strip and the Westbanks have to be united, and all inhabitants of the region regardless of religion and/or ethnicity, should have equal civil rights.[/quote]

I really don't see a single state solution as satisfactory to either party and regard it as little more than a pipe dream. Palestinians will not accept a status quo that leaves them the minority a democratic government and likewise, if the demographics shift against the Israeli's, they will not find the minority position acceptable either. The hopes of a modern, liberal democracy are nil. Whoever gets 51% will see it as a mandate to oppress the other group and even if they didn't, the other group would never trust them to do anything else. Two states must be created. We have the lines by which they should be created. We should push along those lines.


[quote]ETA: Yeah, that "Death to Israel and the Jews" thing is kind of problematic. They should probably dump that.[/quote]

If Hamas dumps this and goes strongly towards negotiation, they can be their own Nixon in China. If even Hamas is recognizing Israel's right to exist, where the hell else is there to go? Sometimes hardliners are necessary for real progress since they're the only ones that can survive the internal political fallout. Hamas recognizing Israel (or something near to that effect) would be HUGE. Even if Israel would like to pretend otherwise, they would soon find the international pressure insurmountable. Hamas fails right now because most of the rest of the world finds them as unpalatable and unacceptable as Israel does. I mean who can expect a nation-state to negotiate with a party whose prime tenet is their destruction? Remove that and you have a path to progress.

[quote]Honestly, why do you people even bother? When the people in the area want peace they'll have it. Right now they don't so why get up in arms over it? I say let the international community monitor and ensure nothing atrocious takes place and other than that leave them to their vicious cycle of violence and hate.[/quote]

What they want is irrelevant. (though I doubt you'll find many on either side wanting perpetual war). This affects more than them. The conflict is a constant strain on US relations in the region and future political endeavors. Its a continued threat to Israeli security, as it foments opposition and antisemitism throughout the Mideast. It radicalizes populations within nearby Muslim nations that the official governments must deal with. (although some of them are perfectly content to allow West-hate in to spawn from the conflict as it distracts attention from their own deficits) Israel-Palestine is the single greatest rationalization for most extremism and terrorist activity within the region. It has been the major justification for more than a few significant wars in the region. It is crucial.

And it is also within the power of the West (and others) to direct. Both the Palestinians and Israeli's are hugely dependent upon foreign aid and approval for their actions. In many respects, the PR war they wage is not even directed at their own citizens, but at the world at large, who approval determines outcome almost as much as they do themselves. Yes we have an interest in this mess. Yes we have every right to intervene to force a resolution. And godamnit, we motherfucking should.

[quote]There's nothing ironic about the Israelis being forced to negotiate with people who hate them. That's mostly all they've left in the area. And they've helped along the "useless do-nothing" image of the only other option quite well, so no wonder their not around.[/quote]

Even if true, the official policy of Hamas is the destruction of Israel. There is little reason for serious negotiation (outside of the occasional ceasefire in response to flareups) to occur until this is removed. Hamas is a government now. They have to grow up and pretend to be one if they want anymore of the foreign aid that sustains them. At the very least I think that election may have been a wakeup call, as it displayed unambiguously how dependent the Palestinians are upon outside aid and the approval that is necessary to get it.

[G'Kar]

[quote name='Shryke' post='1634701' date='Dec 31 2008, 01.45']What made Hamas a bad choice? They were the ones actually helping people, which is the main reason they got elected.

The fact that they are also radical terrorists is sort of a consequence of having no other real options besides the corrupt fuckers nobody trusted anymore and who'd accomplished nothing in years. It's like a 2 party system if you replaced the Democrats with a charity that liked to blow up buildings between food drives.[/quote]

Look, they elected a Hamas for semi-valid reasons, but it doesn't justify the fact that they elected fucking HAMAS. The Germans elected the Nazis who re-built the German infrastructure, gave Germans renewed hope, and oh yeah, ran on a platform of Anti-Semitism. The Nazis helped re-build Germany, doesn't justify the fact that they were elected in the first place (last goodwin violation, I promise).

But I see your point. They have a choice of either voting for a corrupt government that the West and Israel can at least stand and talk with, or a fucking terrorist organization, which as a sideline builds schools and shit. Just becuase they have two bad options, I'm not going to give them a free ride for voting for fucking Hamas, as your are. Especially becuase it was obvious what Israel was going to do in response, so all the "good" that Hamas can do for the Palestinian people is offset by the fact that Israel will not deal with them.

Though as I already said, this could end up working out as Hamas has street cred. Next they need a Mandela. And to get rid of "Death to Israel".

[quote]There's nothing ironic about the Israelis being forced to negotiate with people who hate them. That's mostly all they've left in the area. And they've helped along the "useless do-nothing" image of the only other option quite well, so no wonder their not around.[/quote]

I think hate is a little to weak of a word. Hamas, in their charter, want to FUCKING KILL ISRAEL. It would be ironic to have "good faith" negotiations with an organization that keeps the "Death to Israel" thing during negotiations. Sure, "Death to Israel" is just a pipe dream, but c'mon...

[TheKassi]

Not to mention the fact that a toothless nation that only exists because of the leniency of it's enemy and the charity of the rest of the world put an attack dog at the helm. When you got a pile of rocks, and the enemy has a tank, it is likely not a good idea to elect the guy who's plan is “Lets pee on the tank, that will really tick off the guys inside! They will only shoot some of us. Everyone would call them a bully if they shoot all of us.” leader of the resistance.

[Samalander]

[quote name='The Prisoner' post='1634725' date='Dec 31 2008, 09.54']Though as I already said, this could end up working out as Hamas has street cred. Next they need a Mandela.[/quote]
Marwan Barguti, leader of the Tanzim (paramilitary wing of the PLO) is being set up as the next Mandela. This guy also has lots of street cred. Maybe with him at the helm the people will swallow the PLO as their leaders once more. I suspect once Abu Mazen is ready to step down, we'll find a way to release this guy from jail.

[Lord O' Bones]

[quote name='Samalander' post='1634775' date='Dec 31 2008, 03.19']I suspect once Abu Mazen is ready to step down, we'll find a way to release this guy from jail.[/quote]
I suspect that this whole endeavor is an attempt to start a Palestinian civil war resulting in Hamas control over the West Bank.

[hnv]

I am Israeli in the one state solution fits only to those from the outside...
a nation is a hoem to those who share their nationality and colture
I want my country to be with brothers thsoe who share the same view as me I want Israel...and the palestinian want a country for their own (acceptable)
a single country is not a solution its a very very bad Idea

[Nymeria Sand]

I have a rather pessimistic view of the situation.

There will be no peace until one side or the other is totally annihilated. Hamas exists for this purpose and no other. Critics say that the US funds Israel's military, conveniently excluding the fact that Hamas is funded by Iran and who knows who else--Syria probably.

I'd like to see a two-state solution; it makes the most sense, but when one side has nothing but total bloodlust and its stated goal is genocide, it's not real practical. It would require the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world to recognize Israel's right to exist. I think we know that's not going to happen.

So, what options do we have? Making Israel out to be the aggressor here solves nothing. At some point enough is enough--the gloves come off, and you beat your adversary into submission; you don't let them up off the ground.

I'm no fan of Israel; I can understand why the Arabs are so pissed off and I realize that Israel's hands aren't lily white in this. But I don't get the media--they're portraying Israel as a monster, saying that the response to 12 days of continuous rocket fire and casualties, and warnings to Hamas to stop, is "disproportionate." Disproportionate to what? IMO, the only disporportionate response would be if Israel dropped a nuke on their heads. It's a wonder they've never done that, with as often as they've been threatened and attacked. A government exists to protect its people--and that's exactly what Israel is doing.

It's time to crush Hamas. A democratically elected terrorist regime is still a terrorist regime. Did the fact that Hitler was democratically elected stop us from trying to kill him in WWII?

As for those poor, innocent suffering Gazans? Well, they elected Hamas, knowing full well their stated aims and [i]modus operandi.[/i] Too late to complain about it now. (Exactly the same as us electing Bush in 2004. We have only ourselves to blame.) Hamas uses their women and children as human shields, thinking no one will attack them if they do so. They just found out the hard way--Hamas specifically targeted civilians in their strikes and then have the nerve to whine when Israel does the same? Hamas has fired their rockets from among their families, the cowards. It doesn't help when Arab leaders boast that these women, children, and elderly are more than happy to die for jihad against Israel.

[url="http://newsblaze.com/story/20081229092838zzzz.nb/topstory.html"]Hamas Explains Use of Civilians as Human Shields[/url]

[quote]The goal is to convince Palestinians, including women and children, not to fear death but even to face it at the front to protect Hamas fighters. Hamas's placement of its military installations and fighters among civilians reflects this ideology, and has led to these 51 deaths.

A Hamas representative in the PA legislative council this year expressed pride in the fact that women and children are used as human shields in fighting Israel. He described it as part of a "death industry" at which Palestinians excel, and explained that the Palestinians "desire death" with the same intensity that Israelis "desire life."[/quote]

The difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter? A terrorist shoves a woman or child out front so he doesn't get shot. A freedom fighter would take it like a man. Honestly, how do you fight that mentality? I can't help but feel that if they desire death so much, then someone should give it to them.

I told you, a very pessimistic view. :(

[EHK for Darwin]

[quote name='hnv' post='1634808' date='Dec 31 2008, 07.21']I am Israeli in the one state solution fits only to those from the outside...
[b]a nation is a hoem to those who share their nationality and colture[/b]
I want my country to be with brothers thsoe who share the same view as me I want Israel...and the palestinian want a country for their own (acceptable)
a single country is not a solution its a very very bad Idea[/quote]

Not necessarily true, though I would agree that it seems to be what both parties are looking for in this particular situation. But nationality and cultural homogeneity need not be the decisive factors in what makes a nation-state. There are more than enough significantly multi-cultural and multi-ethnic states that work.