406 replies to this topic

[mcbigski]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 1 2009, 13.31, said:

I'm curious to see how Gaeta will react to his new comm officer's stated desire to rape Athena.  Is he aware of the predilictions of some of the people involved in his "revolution?"

I think Gaeta is now firmly in the 'You can't rape a machine' camp.  After the webisodes, after the disdain he showed for Tigh, and for Adama for still being friends with Tigh, and his getting his leg shot off by Anders, Gaeta isn't going to be personifying Cylons any more.

Edited by mcbigski, 01 February 2009 - 03:02 PM.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 14.27, said:

You're making my argument for me, Shryke. Adama indeed ignores the dictates of the civilian government whenever he likes, but that doesn't make it legal. That's just how he rolls. Remember that, in the miniseries, Roslin gave orders regarding military matters to both Adama and Tigh, expecting them to obey her. Either she was just delusional or else she had a reasonable expectation that she was authorized to give those orders.

Clearly, you're indelibly wedded to this idea of Adama's final say on military matters, so we'll leave that for the nonce. Even if I conceded that point (which I don't) the installation of the jump drives, as I recall, was in exchange for citizenship and Quorum representation of the rebel Cylons, which is clearly a political matter. So your argument, in my view, fails on both fronts.

Your assuming "legal" even matters. It doesn't. If it did, Lee wouldn't have been the acting President instead of Zarek. "Legal" is irrelevant.

You need to rewatch the end of S3. Because the truth is, Lee is right. They aren't a civilization. They're a gang. They make token adherence to a charter or constitution or whatever they call it, but the truth is Adama and Roslin call the shots. Everything else is window dressing.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Feb 1 2009, 15.21, said:

Your assuming "legal" even matters. It doesn't. If it did, Lee wouldn't have been the acting President instead of Zarek. "Legal" is irrelevant.

You need to rewatch the end of S3. Because the truth is, Lee is right. They aren't a civilization. They're a gang. They make token adherence to a charter or constitution or whatever they call it, but the truth is Adama and Roslin call the shots. Everything else is window dressing.

I recall Lee's diatribe quite well, and I also recall that he said those things before he joined the Quorum of Twelve. Now that he holds political office, legality does indeed (or should) mean a great deal to him.

As to "window dressing", if you're saying that the law means nothing, then neither does Adama's commission nor Roslin's title, and everyone on the fleet is free to do as he or she sees fit. In that case, Adama can make no moral argument against Gaeta's uprising, nor can Roslin complain that Tom Zarek has done anything wrong. Lee himself stated this more succinctly in "Bastille Day", when he told Roslin and Adama that if they didn't hold the elections required by law: "You're not the commander, I'm not a captain, you're not the president, and I don't owe either of you a damned thing."

Edited by TrackerNeil, 01 February 2009 - 04:00 PM.

[Ran]

As I recall, it was Lee who said that the Quorom had to be on board with the fitting of the new FTL drives.

The ultimate law of the fleet really has always been Adama's oath to protect and defend, and how he interpreted its application to the many very, very bad situations that were handed to him. Law can only exist in the shadow of that. His departure from the oath -- or, just his plain departure -- will cause a deal of bloodshed while a new order works itself out.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

There's one argument you are forgetting against the mutineers.  These are people who don't see raping an enemy as anything to get into a twist over, because they don't see their enemies as people.  That gives Adama and Roslin the moral high ground in my opinion.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 1 2009, 16.18, said:

Tracker,

There's one argument you are forgetting against the mutineers.  These are people who don't see raping an enemy as anything to get into a twist over, because they don't see their enemies as people.  That gives Adama and Roslin the moral high ground in my opinion.

Well, at least one of the mutineers feels that way, yes. And I'll bet at least one of Adama's people might agree. You can't characterize the entire movement based on one person. If we see widespread abuse of prisoners I might concede the point; until then, I will withhold judgment.

[Lord O' Bones]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 15.20, said:

Well, at least one of the mutineers feels that way, yes. And I'll bet at least one of Adama's people might agree. You can't characterize the entire movement based on one person. If we see widespread abuse of prisoners I might concede the point; until then, I will withhold judgment.

Two different groups captured Helo and Sam.  They also beat the fucking shit out of them.  When we get to the brig, we see that Cap 6 (the pregnant lady) has fresh wounds, and she was already in the brig - no capturing necessary. How widespread do you require?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

Gaines openly declared what he was going to do to Athena in front of other mutineers, twice.  No one batted an eye.  The beatings JohnK mentioned are also a good point.  When Starbuck wants to shoot a prisoner Adama lets the prisoner go.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 01 February 2009 - 06:36 PM.

[Shryke]

John Kenady, on Feb 1 2009, 18.29, said:

Two different groups captured Helo and Sam.  They also beat the fucking shit out of them.  When we get to the brig, we see that Cap 6 (the pregnant lady) has fresh wounds, and she was already in the brig - no capturing necessary. How widespread do you require?

They also tried to kill the entire command staff in the CiC. The only reason Adama and Tigh are alive is cause Tigh saved their asses from Gaeta's trigger happy compadres. And there's mountains of bodies and ammo as people are moving around the ship.

As I said, Gaeta has started a purge. His fellow mutineers are blowing away anyone they don't like.

Whatever his goals, Gaeta has unleashed a shitstorm anyone with half a brain could see coming and probably crippled the military by doing so.

Quote

I recall Lee's diatribe quite well, and I also recall that he said those things before he joined the Quorum of Twelve. Now that he holds political office, legality does indeed (or should) mean a great deal to him.

A change in career doesn't mean he wasn't right.

Quote

As to "window dressing", if you're saying that the law means nothing, then neither does Adama's commission nor Roslin's title, and everyone on the fleet is free to do as he or she sees fit. In that case, Adama can make no moral argument against Gaeta's uprising, nor can Roslin complain that Tom Zarek has done anything wrong. Lee himself stated this more succinctly in "Bastille Day", when he told Roslin and Adama that if they didn't hold the elections required by law: "You're not the commander, I'm not a captain, you're not the president, and I don't owe either of you a damned thing."

I didn't say the law meant nothing. I said the term "legal" your using is irrelevant because their not running the Fleet by those laws. The military is running as it always has. The civilian government, on the other hand, is being run under a sort of defacto dictatorship under Roslin, propped up by Adama. They're not free to do as they choose.

While Gaeta's actions may be understandable, they are certainly not a smart. He's taken a terrible course of action to stop this alliance and gone against his Oath to do so.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Feb 1 2009, 18.41, said:

I didn't say the law meant nothing. I said the term "legal" your using is irrelevant because their not running the Fleet by those laws. The military is running as it always has. The civilian government, on the other hand, is being run under a sort of defacto dictatorship under Roslin, propped up by Adama. They're not free to do as they choose.

While Gaeta's actions may be understandable, they are certainly not a smart. He's taken a terrible course of action to stop this alliance and gone against his Oath to do so.

Shryke, I don't know what you're arguing. You're saying there's no law except as need dictates, and yet you insist Gaeta has broken his oath in leading a revolt/mutiny/pick your term on Galactica. Either the law matters or it doesn't. If it matters, then Adama has broken the same oath; if it doesn't, then oathbreaking doesn't mean a damn.

Oh, and Adama took an oath as well, to the lawful government of the Colonies, which he's broken on numerous occasions. I didn't hear you complain then, or now.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 1 2009, 18.34, said:

Tracker,

Gaines openly declared what he was going to do to Athena in front of other mutineers, twice.  No one batted an eye.  The beatings JohnK mentioned are also a good point.  When Starbuck wants to shoot a prisoner Adama lets the prisoner go.

I'm not getting into the who's-the-more-noble debate, because it doesn't matter. My point is, and has always been, that this uprising was foreseeable and preventable, and it was Roslin and Adama's job to both foresee and prevent. They brought this on themselves.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 20.52, said:

Shryke, I don't know what you're arguing. You're saying there's no law except as need dictates, and yet you insist Gaeta has broken his oath in leading a revolt/mutiny/pick your term on Galactica. Either the law matters or it doesn't. If it matters, then Adama has broken the same oath; if it doesn't, then oathbreaking doesn't mean a damn.

Oh, and Adama took an oath as well, to the lawful government of the Colonies, which he's broken on numerous occasions. I didn't hear you complain then, or now.

Because you keep equating the law with some colonial system that no longer exists instead of with the present day political system they are running with.

I mean seriously, "lawful government of the Colonies"?? What colonies? Hell, what government? The government is Roslin and Adama.

Gaeta has broken his oath to Adama and to the people of the Fleet by turning against his military superiors.

Edited by Shryke, 01 February 2009 - 09:00 PM.

[Lord O' Bones]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 17.54, said:

I'm not getting into the who's-the-more-noble debate, because it doesn't matter. My point is, and has always been, that this uprising was foreseeable and preventable, and it was Roslin and Adama's job to both foresee and prevent.

Oh. I thought you said something about 'if we see widespread abuse of prisoners I might concede the point; until then, I will withhold judgment.'

I'm saying we're seeing it already and asking how much more wide spread it needs to be for your standards.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 20.54, said:

I'm not getting into the who's-the-more-noble debate, because it doesn't matter. My point is, and has always been, that this uprising was foreseeable and preventable, and it was Roslin and Adama's job to both foresee and prevent. They brought this on themselves.

I will concede that Roslin and Adama failed to prevent this uprising (Roslin more than Adama as she simply checked out).  That said based on the actions of the mutineers, killing Laird without cause or necessity, beating captives who were not resisting, threatening rape of captives, whatever justification they had at the start is lost because of their vengence seeking and blood thirstiness.

[Crazydog7]

Hopefully with it being so close the end RDM or whoever will stop pussyfooting around and show some balls like in the first part of season 3.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Feb 1 2009, 20.59, said:

Because you keep equating the law with some colonial system that no longer exists instead of with the present day political system they are running with.

I mean seriously, "lawful government of the Colonies"?? What colonies? Hell, what government? The government is Roslin and Adama.

Gaeta has broken his oath to Adama and to the people of the Fleet by turning against his military superiors.

So if there is no government, what makes Adama a commander? And Roslin a president? Or the Quorum a lawmaking body? Seems to me once you throw out the law nobody is a traitor. And some might say that in reining in an officer who's making unilateral decisions against the will of the legislature, Gaeta was serving the fleet.

John Kenady, on Feb 1 2009, 21.09, said:

Oh. I thought you said something about 'if we see widespread abuse of prisoners I might concede the point; until then, I will withhold judgment.'

I'm saying we're seeing it already and asking how much more wide spread it needs to be for your standards.

I'd like to see maybe one more episode before I go calling the rebels a lot of murderers and rapists. How's that? In any case, I'm not playing the blame game, because there's plenty to go around. This is a conflict that should have and could have been avoided, and in my opinion is due to a failure of leadership.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 01 February 2009 - 09:43 PM.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 21.42, said:

So if there is no government, what makes Adama a commander? And Roslin a president? Or the Quorum a lawmaking body? Seems to me once you throw out the law nobody is a traitor. And some might say that in reining in an officer who's making unilateral decisions against the will of the legislature, Gaeta was serving the fleet.

There is a government, it's just not the same one as existed in the Colonies. The government has morphed over time.

You REALLY seem hung up on this. Just because it's not the same government doesn't mean there's no government.

And Gaeta has severely weakened the Fleet and the entire human race's chance for survival. And all because he can't bring himself to trust Cylons.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 21.42, said:

So if there is no government, what makes Adama a commander? And Roslin a president? Or the Quorum a lawmaking body? Seems to me once you throw out the law nobody is a traitor. And some might say that in reining in an officer who's making unilateral decisions against the will of the legislature, Gaeta was serving the fleet.



I'd like to see maybe one more episode before I go calling the rebels a lot of murderers and rapists. How's that? In any case, I'm not playing the blame game, because there's plenty to go around. This is a conflict that should have and could have been avoided, and in my opinion is due to a failure of leadership.

Please tell me you aren't saying the Mutineer's aren't rapists and murderers?  No failure of leadership justifies the actions the Mutineers are taking.

[Werthead]

I think I mentioned this before but Lee's S3 finale speech seems to muddled a lot of waters. The Fleet's population is simply too small for the government to operate effectively in the manner that it did before the attack, and as Lee said it seems to work better to think of them as a gang roaring through space. Sometimes they make decisions collectively and sometimes someone needs to take charge and show some leadership. The Fleet really seems to answer each new crisis on an ad hoc basis, sometimes using the 'legal' way of doing things and sometimes Adama or Roslin take charge, and sometimes there is disagreement and dissent. And to be honest that's pretty much the way the show has been done since the mini-series.

Lee says in Bastille Day when he's justifying his promise of elections to Zarek that they have to follow the law otherwise Adama isn't a commander and Roslin isn't the president, but sometimes circumstances arise where that isn't possible and someone needs to take charge. The current crisis wasn't one of those times and Adama and Roslin badly dropped the ball by not respecting the wishes of the individual ship captains and the population as a whole. But their actions weren't killing anyone (although Zarek and Gaeta can argue they were putting people in danger), so they retain some shred of moral authority in the situation once the mutiny began.

[Werthead]

Canadian promo for next week's ep.

SPOILER: Blood on the Scales

Gaeta: "You are charged with treason."
Adama: "Shove it up your ass."

Plus a bit of a space battle thrown in for good measure as well.

Sweet.

Edited by Werthead, 01 February 2009 - 10:35 PM.