406 replies to this topic

[mcbigski]

Was Laird killed or just knocked unconscious with a wrench to the head?

[Lord O' Bones]

mcbigski, on Feb 1 2009, 19.47, said:

Was Laird killed or just knocked unconscious with a wrench to the head?

Dead.

[Crow's Eye]

So when Baltar calls Gaeta in the CIC, at one point he says that Gaeta is "hungry for redemption."  The hybrid from Razor (i think) said something about the fifth "hungering for redemption."  

Odd that an almost identical phrase would be used here. Sloppy writing?  I don't think so - the writing on this show is inconsistent, but not so bad that they would quote their own prophecy and not realize it.  

So are they trying to cast some doubt on Ellen being the fifth? Could Gaeta be the 5th, and Ellen was just a little misdirection?

Edited by Crow's Eye, 01 February 2009 - 11:52 PM.

[Lord of Oop North]

:idea:

Maybe Gaeta IS Ellen!?!

:eek:

[Shryke]

A nice interview with RDM from 4 weeks ago on what will be answered in the last bunch of episodes:

Quote

After I watched "Revelations," I thought it was a great ending, but I jotted down a list of things that still had to be dealt with. I'm wondering, without you giving it away, whether these things are going to be addressed or whether these are things that we're thinking a lot more about than you were.
Do you have a list?

Yeah.
Okay.

Obviously, the identity of the final Cylon, we will find this out?
Yeah.

The origin and nature of the Final Four and how they're different from the rest of them?
Yes.

The origin of the rest of the skinjobs?
Yes.

What happened to Earth and what happened to the 13th Colony?
Yes.

Who, if anyone, is orchestrating all of this?
Basically, yeah. I don't know if it's going to be wrapped up in a neat bow. The show has an answer for it, whether it's a satisfying answer, I don't know.

Will "All this has happened before and it will happen again" be explained in some way?
Yes.

The opera house?
Yes.

What happened to Kara when she went through the Malestrom?
Pretty much.

Identity and nature of the "head" characters?
Yes.

Tigh and Six's baby, and whether that means Cylons can breed?
Yes. That's not a "yes" to whether they can breed -- the question will be answered.

The fate of Boomer and whether there are other 1's, 4's and 5's floating out there?
Yes.

Roslin's health?
Yes.

Okay, that's a "yes" on all of them.
See? We knew what all the questions were! I'm kind of proud of myself. "Yes"es to all of them. I thought you were going to throw a curve at me, like, "Oh, shit."

[Lord O' Bones]

Shryke, on Feb 1 2009, 22.00, said:

A nice interview with RDM from 4 weeks ago on what will be answered in the last bunch of episodes:

Well. That's encouraging.

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 1 2009, 17.52, said:

Oh, and Adama took an oath as well, to the lawful government of the Colonies, which he's broken on numerous occasions. I didn't hear you complain then, or now.

Adama is the commander of the fleet until the President says otherwise.  She hasn't.  Nor has the Quorum removed her from office (they've ignored her, but not formally impeached her).  If the Colonial Constitution is anything like ours, the VP has the right to preside over the Quorum in her absence, but he's not the President until they impeach her.  Which has not yet happened.  So SHE decides when the wishes of the lawful government of the Colonies is being ignored.  The Executive executes.  The only right of the legislature is to remove the Executive if they don't like his/her/its execution.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 02 February 2009 - 03:24 AM.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Feb 1 2009, 21.45, said:

There is a government, it's just not the same one as existed in the Colonies. The government has morphed over time.

You REALLY seem hung up on this. Just because it's not the same government doesn't mean there's no government.

Shryke, you said there was no government, and that Lee was right that the Colonists are now a gang. As to "morphing over time", I really don't recall this. Can you site specific examples?

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 1 2009, 21.52, said:

Tracker,

Please tell me you aren't saying the Mutineer's aren't rapists and murderers?  No failure of leadership justifies the actions the Mutineers are taking.

Scot, I am not justifying rape, murder, or any other sin you care to name. Laird's death was unnecessary, and it shows that Zarek is out for more than freedom and justice and whatever else he'll say. And, obviously, no one should be allowed to gang rape Athena or anyone else. I'm saying that Roslin and Adama were governing so badly they were all but begging for trouble. And they got it.

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 03.21, said:

Adama is the commander of the fleet until the President says otherwise.  She hasn't.  Nor has the Quorum removed her from office (they've ignored her, but not formally impeached her).  If the Colonial Constitution is anything like ours, the VP has the right to preside over the Quorum in her absence, but he's not the President until they impeach her.  Which has not yet happened.  So SHE decides when the wishes of the lawful government of the Colonies is being ignored.  The Executive executes.  The only right of the legislature is to remove the Executive if they don't like his/her/its execution.

Agreed in part, although I don't recall Roslin handing down a decree that Adama was acting president. I thought that was Lee. In any case, when the president abdicates her duties without abdicating her office, and when the admiral starts assuming control over political matters and ignoring both elected officials and the law, you have to expect something to happen. That's doubly true when something as momentous as citizenship for Cylons is on the table.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 02 February 2009 - 08:09 AM.

[Ser Aardvark]

BTW, according to the podcast, RDM said the original script of Resurrection Ship Pt. 1 had Galactica and Pegasus vipers exchanging fire before Starbuck showed up. He eventually got rid of it on the idea that "Once you fire at someone its nearly impossible to go back to the way things were before." It looks like he's using the same theory here.  In addition, the end of the series brings a great weakening to both the Main and Major Supporting Character Immunity Buffs so I can see a lot of characters dying before Adama retakes control. On the other hand, mass executions are not Adama and Roslin's style. It would also mean we lose a LOT of sympathy for our Heroes before the series finale. So my predictions: Gaeta, Zarek, and most of the nasty coup leaders (I'm looking at our serial rapist Gage) dying along with others and the rest accepting positions on a prison ship or maybe even marooned to make it on their own.

Here are some scenes I would like to see in the next episode or two:

The Basestar destroying Colonial One (or at least sending a warning shot)
Some officer in the coup verbally defending his/her actions when they get shot in the middle of it by Starbuck.
Gaeta, Adama, or Lee executing Zarek.
One of the "Final Five" dying so we can see what happens next.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Aardvark, on Feb 2 2009, 08.52, said:

The Basestar destroying Colonial One (or at least sending a warning shot)

Actually, I've been expecting something like this, too.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

From the RDM podcast.  He's commenting on Tigh and Adama and says, "You don't want to fuck with these guys."  Then he says, in reference to Roslin, "You don't want to fuck with her either as subsequent events will show."  What the hell can she do with BSG still largely in the hands of the Mutineers?  Maybe we will see the Baseship taking out Colonial One.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 12:00 PM.

[Shryke]

I'm telling ya Scot, she's gonna blow Zarek's head off.

With a gun.

[alguien]

Finally saw the episode and have to say it was pretty awesome.  

My inner fanboy gushed when Saul and Adama kicked those guards' asses and also when Kara rescued Lee.  :thumbsup:

When the Admiral pronounced in the CiC there will be no amnesty?  Chills.    :wideeyed:

Its funny, from a logical standpoint, I can see where Gaeta Zarek and Co. are coming from.  

But during the episode, all I wanted was for the Adamas, Tigh, and Starbuck to kill those frakkin' sons of bitches...    :devil:

Good stuff.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

Quote

Scot, I am not justifying rape, murder, or any other sin you care to name. Laird's death was unnecessary, and it shows that Zarek is out for more than freedom and justice and whatever else he'll say. And, obviously, no one should be allowed to gang rape Athena or anyone else. I'm saying that Roslin and Adama were governing so badly they were all but begging for trouble. And they got it.

What I can't believe is Gaeta's "Well you gotta break some eggs" attitude toward Laird being murdered unecessarily (even in light of what they are about to do) right before his eyes.  That, again, invalidates any justification Gaeta and cohorts have at that point.  Murdering when Murder is completely unjustified should have forced Gaeta to wake up.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 12:37 PM.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 12.33, said:

Tracker,

What I can't believe is Gaeta's "Well you gotta break some eggs" attitude toward Laird being murdered unecessarily even in light of what they are about to do right before his eyes.  That, again, invalidates any justification Gaeta and cohorts have at that point.

I didn't read that into Gaeta's reaction; my take was that he was uncomfortable (at least) with what Zarek had done. As he should have been.

I guess where you and I differ is that I'm not trying to justify anything. When a leader fails or appears to fail on an epic scale (i.e. devastated Earth) she had better be on the ball and ready for some heavy lifting in terms of damage control. Instead, Roslin checked out, leaving Adama and Lee to run the show, which they ran into the ground by trying to strong-arm the fleet into an alliance that's incredibly complicated and emotion-wrought. When these things happen, trouble follows, and so it happened here. Adama is a good man, but he screwed up. Gaeta is a good man, but he's going to needlessly spill some blood. That's what comes from a failure of leadership.

Also, I'd like to respond to the suggestion that Gaeta (and others who object to the Cylon alliance) just need to get over their irrationality. Fear of the Cylons is neither unfounded nor irrational, and any reasonable person would need a good deal of convincing before entering into an alliance with these genocidal robots. It's easy for viewers to say, "Well, the alliance makes sense," because we're not the ones who lost everything to these creatures...twice.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 02 February 2009 - 12:46 PM.

[Shryke]

The problem is the methods Gaeta is using. Anyone could have seen the bloodbath coming. ESPECIALLY after Laird's death. It's not the killing itself, but the reaction to it. One of the guards says (paraphrased) "So what? He deserved it.".

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 12.45, said:

I didn't read that into Gaeta's reaction; my take was that he was uncomfortable (at least) with what Zarek had done. As he should have been.

He barely blinked.  Laird was killed for doing his job when all they needed to do was take the man captive.  There was no way to justify Zarek's action.  Gaeta should have been more than "uncomfortable" at Laird's death he should have been horrified.

Quote

I guess where you and I differ is that I'm not trying to justify anything. When a leader fails or appears to fail on an epic scale (i.e. devastated Earth) she had better be on the ball and ready for some heavy lifting in terms of damage control. Instead, Roslin checked out, leaving Adama and Lee to run the show, which they ran into the ground by trying to strong-arm the fleet into an alliance that's incredibly complicated and emotion-wrought. When these things happen, trouble follows, and so it happened here. Adama is a good man, but he screwed up. Gaeta is a good man, but he's going to needlessly spill some blood. That's what comes from a failure of leadership.

Yes.  Once Gaeta's crew started spilling innocent blood Adama and Roslin's "failure of leadership" became irrelevant.  You keep bringing up that they shouldn't have gotten there in the first place, well, Adama and Roslin sure as hell didn't force the wrench into Zarek's hands.  Nor did they force Gaeta to be merely "uncomfortable" with the murder while continuing forward with a mutiny that will result in many other murders.

Quote

Also, I'd like to respond to the suggestion that Gaeta (and others who object to the Cylon alliance) just need to get over their irrationality. Fear of the Cylons is neither unfounded nor irrational, and any reasonable person would need a good deal of convincing before entering into an alliance with these genocidal robots. It's easy for viewers to say, "Well, the alliance makes sense," because we're not the ones who lost everything to these creatures...twice.

He has a rational basis to be fearful.  That basis doesn't justify the deaths of innocents to prevent his fears from being realized.  He fears innocent deaths so he will kill innocents to prevent the possiblity of more innocent deaths?  The justification may be rational but the actions he is justifying aren't.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 01:02 PM.

[davos]

Quote

He has a rational basis to be fearful. That basis doesn't justify the deaths of innocents to prevent his fears from being realized. He fears innocent deaths so he will kill innocents to prevent the possiblity of more innocent deaths? The justification may be rational but the actions he justifying aren't.

Remember that they are dealing with the last survivors of the species, at least as far as we know.  This is not a country struggling to maintain its independence.  Its not just one side of a political debate.  These are people who've seen the cylons wipe out the vast majority of human life on 12 planets, spent years fleeing from them and then spent time brutally occupied by them, and then spent several more years fleeing again.  These are people who have been holding on to a hope that whole time that they have now just found to be false.  They are going to be some who believe that an alliance with the cylons, even the rebels ones is suicide, not just for the fleet but for the whole species.  With the stakes that high I think its reasonable to consider rather the most extreme actions are under those unique circumstances indeed justifiable.  Certainly one can at least imagine an arguement for accepting innocent deaths when the survival of one one's very race is on the line.  I'm not saying I agree with it but I think in Gaetta's mind that's how he sees things.

[kalbear]

Quote

What I can't believe is Gaeta's "Well you gotta break some eggs" attitude toward Laird being murdered unecessarily

That wasn't Gaeta's reaction. That was everyone else's.

I think Gaeta is bothered by a lot of it and didn't realize how much damage he'd be causing. That doesn't excuse or exonerate him, but to say that this was what he wanted and that he's okay with it is pretty far from the truth. However, I do think that he's committed to his goals at this point and will see them through. He's broken now, and he's seen what happens when Adama's brand of rule isn't checked.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Davos,

I get that.  However, by the same token every life is important.  I've never understood the callous flippant way the death penalty is thrown around when there are less than 50,000 humans left in the entire universe.  Why kill Laird when capturing him was enough to keep him under wraps.  Given Gaeta's reaction to the wanton death of the Private in CIC why the hell was he so blayza (I know I spelling that wrong) about Zarek killing Laird without any cause whatsoever?