406 replies to this topic

[kalbear]

Because in the BSG universe, death and violence on other humans is commonplace. It's not our world. It's not our society. Think about all the casual violence that people inflict on each other. The random brutality. The suicide bombings or sacrifices. This has always been the case in the world. Death is just not that special, even today. At least to most; to Roslin every life might be sacred, but I think that's a very specific view. Death is always an option.

Quote

Given Gaeta's reaction to the wanton death of the Private in CIC why the hell was he so blayza (I know I spelling that wrong) about Zarek killing Laird without any cause whatsoever?

A couple thoughts: it took him by surprise, he didn't have time to get into a pissing match about it, and he isn't used to blowing up at people in charge. Zarek's ruthlessness shocked him; this seemed abundantly clear from his expression. But he wasn't going to stop the whole thing because of one deck hand.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

Again, I see that.  What I don't understand is why colonial society hasn't adapted to the new reality of being a few thousand deaths from extinction.  That makes every life incredibly valuable.  It seems the whole show is taking the Hobbesian view of life as dark, brutal, and short.  When it's an outside entity that is pushing you to the limit those deaths make sense because there is no other choice but to ride the razor's edge and fight for survival.  When you are killing your own people over an internal dispute the deaths are, in my opinion, much more difficult to justify.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 02:00 PM.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 12.56, said:

Tracker,

He barely blinked.  Laird was killed for doing his job when all they needed to do was take the man captive.  There was no way to justify Zarek's action.  Gaeta should have been more than "uncomfortable" at Laird's death he should have been horrified.

Yes.  Once Gaeta's crew started spilling innocent blood Adama and Roslin's "failure of leadership" became irrelevant.  You keep bringing up that they shouldn't have gotten there in the first place, well, Adama and Roslin sure as hell didn't force the wrench into Zarek's hands.  Nor did they force Gaeta to be merely "uncomfortable" with the murder while continuing forward with a mutiny that will result in many other murders.

As was pointed out previously, Gaeta did not kill Laird, nor was the man's death a part of a detailed plan. Zarek whacked Laird, and he never asked Gaeta's permission. That's fact. Should Gaeta be horrified? Yes. Should he stop doing what he thinks is right because of it? That's a more complicated question. Certainly both Roslin and Adama have tolerated unnecessary deaths in pursuit of the greater good...why should Gaeta act differently?

And the failure of leadership is hardly irrelevant if it prevents them from settling this situation in a way that avoids the least bloodshed. Roslin needs to take her office in hand and work to convince the Quorum and the people that this alliance is necessary (as she so clearly believes it is). If she decides to take the Adama route and simply bludgeon her dissenters into compliance...well, we see how well that worked for Adama.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 14.02, said:

As was pointed out previously, Gaeta did not kill Laird, nor was the man's death a part of a detailed plan. Zarek whacked Laird, and he never asked Gaeta's permission. That's fact. Should Gaeta be horrified? Yes. Should he stop doing what he thinks is right because of it? That's a more complicated question. Certainly both Roslin and Adama have tolerated unnecessary deaths in pursuit of the greater good...why should Gaeta act differently?

And the failure of leadership is hardly irrelevant if it prevents them from settling this situation in a way that avoids the least bloodshed. Roslin needs to take her office in hand and work to convince the Quorum and the people that this alliance is necessary (as she so clearly believes it is). If she decides to take the Adama route and simply bludgeon her dissenters into compliance...well, we see how well that worked for Adama.

What was Gaeta's reaction when she attempted to reassert her proper roll in office?  Where does that fit in your whole "Civilian v. Military" matrix?

[Ran]

You know, I thought Gaeta was clearly upset and bothered by the killing of Laird, which is why Zarek cuts off any protest with his little spiel about Laird not being the last. Gaeta's "Get on that ship" was not exactly full of joy and happiness -- there was clearly some angst.

Does Gaeta buy into it too quickly? I don't know. Maybe he just realized the obvious truism that this was not going to be a bloodless mutiny, and accepted that cost.

Edited by Ran, 02 February 2009 - 02:15 PM.

[Bronn Stone]

With Cally dead, Tyrol a Cylon and whoever else from the deck crew gone, killing Laird was the pinnacle of folly.  He's practically irreplaceable.  Zarek is a blithering idiot.

[kalbear]

Quote

Again, I see that. What I don't understand is why colonial society hasn't adapted to the new reality of being a few thousand deaths from extinction.

Because that shit is hard to do. It's hard to immediately change from hating each tribe and wanton violence to kumbayah.

And as Roslin and Tigh would both agree, sometimes one death is worth it if it averts genocide. Gaeta truly believes that Adama and Roslin's idea to ally with the cylons will lead to their extinction or slavery. They have every reason to believe this. All Adama and Roslin's arguments have gotten them was a 1-year respite followed by occupation, then a mad quest for a radioactive wasteland - all the while the things that wiped out their race are serving as second in command of the fleet and are asking for an alliance?

I think Gaeta's troubled by killing, but he's much less so if it means eventual success.

[Wouter]

Ran, on Feb 1 2009, 17.59, said:

I will be very shocked indeed if Gaeta survives, and short of pulling a rabbit out of their hat, I don't see the writers being able to change this in a way that makes good television.

Zarek's odds of survival are higher, I suppose, but not a lot.

I think exactly the contrary. Zarek is dead meat. But Gaeta? Adama has forgiven worse - and he must realise, deep down, that he is as guilty of this situation as Gaeta is.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Wouter,

Wouter, on Feb 2 2009, 14.15, said:

I think exactly the contrary. Zarek is dead meat. But Gaeta? Adama has forgiven worse - and he must realise, deep down, that he is as guilty of this situation as Gaeta is.

That very well may be the case.  Given my position on the value of human life at this point I can't justify any executions.  The Colonials need the genetic diversity every individual can provide.

[TrackerNeil]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 14.05, said:

Tracker,

What was Gaeta's reaction when she attempted to reassert her proper roll in office?  Where does that fit in your whole "Civilian v. Military" matrix?

Seems to me that the straw that broke the battlestar's back was the installation of Cylon jump drives on Colonial ships. The Quorum, which has the legal power to enact legislation without Roslin's permission (we've seen this previously), decreed that no jump drive was to be installed on any civilian ship without the permission of that ship's captain. President or no, Roslin's just as proscribed by that law as Adama. If she wants to persuade the Quorum to rescind its decree she can damn well use political channels to do so. Or she can try to force compliance, which is what brought the fleet to its current situation.

Lots of people - Gaeta, Zarek, the Quorum - tried to express how serious this problem was but Adama didn't want to hear it. So Gaeta forced the issue, which is exactly the manner in which Adama is accustomed to act. Both men have good intentions, and both violate the chain of command in pursuit of the greater good. So tell me again how morally superior Adama is?

Back to Roslin, I think there was serious cause for the fleet to question just how much she was in charge. She'd been incommunicado for weeks, and I'm sure those reports of her running bald through Galactica's hallways, sick with cancer and skipping her treatments, didn't do much to soothe anyone. If I were on the Quorum, I would have considered impeaching her...assuming of course that Bill Adama wasn't going to throw me in the brig for exercising my lawful duties. He has a way of doing that, you know.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 02 February 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[Bronn Stone]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 11.18, said:

That very well may be the case.  Given my position on the value of human life at this point I can't justify any executions.  The Colonials need the genetic diversity every individual can provide.

Genetic Diversity is not a reason to keep males alive. Their potential contribution can be easily accomplished via semen samples.  Females are a bit trickier, but not by much, considering the level of medical technology in the Colonial Fleet.  They may not have the necessary equipment for in vitro.  At this point, a male human's value is tied to what he can DO.

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 11.30, said:

Back to Roslin, I think there was serious cause for the fleet to question just how much she was in charge. She'd been incommunicado for weeks, and I'm sure those reports of her running bald through Galactica's hallways, sick with cancer and skipping her treatments, didn't do much to soothe anyone. If I were on the Quorum, I would have considered impeaching her...assuming of course that Bill Adama wasn't going to throw me in the brig for exercising my lawful duties. He has a way of doing that, you know.

There are certainly good grounds for considering removing her from office, but until the process happens, she's still in charge.

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 14.38, said:

There are certainly good grounds for considering removing her from office, but until the process happens, she's still in charge.

She is, and isn't it a shame she did not choose to involve herself in government affairs until the peace had been broken? In any case, she can't authorize Adama to break a law that binds her, and that in my view is the issue here. She's president, not Queen Emperor of the Universe.

[Ran]

Ser Scot,

I just don't get it.

10,000 people, more or less, will be sufficient to pretty much insure full genetic diversity. They can lost 20,000 people and still be all right as far as genetic diversity goes. And that's just to be absolutely sure -- you can get significantly further down and still have good odds of successful diversification of the gene pool.

Would keeping the ringleaders of this mutiny/coup improve or hurt the situation for humanity down the road? I'd guess it'd improve it, because if they survive then they are unlikely to just lie back and not cause any more trouble, leading ultimately to a new wave of death.

If we're absolutely so concerned about genetic diversity, then fine, have Doc Cottle get some sperm samples out of them to stick in the freezer. But I don't think their lives are so precious that they can  be left to endanger the fleet again. Certainly, not Zarek. He will never rest.

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 11.42, said:

She is, and isn't it a shame she did not choose to involve herself in government affairs until the peace had been broken? In any case, she can't authorize Adama to break a law that binds her, and that in my view is the issue here. She's president, not Queen Emperor of the Universe.

She can't authorize it, but she IS the only one who can replace him or discipline him for it.  Unless she is first replaced.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 14.42, said:

She is, and isn't it a shame she did not choose to involve herself in government affairs until the peace had been broken? In any case, she can't authorize Adama to break a law that binds her, and that in my view is the issue here. She's president, not Queen Emperor of the Universe.

I seem to forget when the Quorum authorized Zarek to take action to remove Adama from command of Galactica, detain his senior staff, and conduct drumhead trials prior to execution when they authorized Fleet Capitans to refuse access to engineers installing Cylon jump drives.  When was that?  That being the case what is the justification for jamming the President's address to the Fleet?

Ran,

All I'm saying is that when the population is that small every body counts.  As another person pointed out we have no idea whether the Colonials even have invitro technology.

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 02:50 PM.

[Wouter]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 03.52, said:

Please tell me you aren't saying the Mutineer's aren't rapists and murderers?  No failure of leadership justifies the actions the Mutineers are taking.

Some of the mutineers are (aspiring) rapists. Some, probably many of them, are murderers. But then, is Adama's side any better? Starbuck demonstrated this by trying to kill an unarmed prisoner, against the express orders of Adama himself (much like Gaeta was surprised by his men opening fire, and having to stop them - neither Gaeta nor Adama are 100% in control of their men, neither is omnipresent and omniscient, neither's authority is absolute). Lots of guys are running around with guns and are using them (and not with rubber bullets), on both sides.

Tigh made himself guilty of mass murder, on New Caprica, mostly on innocent colonial civilians, and alos on his very own men, degraded to being fancy pieces of ammunition - all for the dubious goal of "killing" a few Cylons, taking out a few collaborators and to generally annoy the Cylons (leading to even more killing in turn). Tigh, Starbuck and others ran their little courts after New Caprica, killing some who deserved it, but also some who weren't that bad (Jammer) and they attempted to outright murder Gaeta even as they couldn't really convince themself of his "guilt". Anders was willing to use violence so that Starbuck's crazy orders were followed, against the wishes of the rest of the crew of the "Demetrius". Athena, in a deleted scene, said she would have had Starbuck airlocked on suspicion of being a Cylon, if she had her way. There are lots of murderers on this ship.

We may see Gaeta's reaction to his Cylon prisoners in the next episode; I don't think he'll condone rape or would refuse treatment for the wounded. The mutineers aren't all the same; with the men that took Anders down, one was continuing to beat him (no doubt Anders got to take the blame for all the Cylons had ever done, in that man's mind), while the other said "enough". Much like Lee and Bill aren't quite as bloodthirsty as Starbuck is.

Regarding the baseship being possibly used in the fight: actually, that would be very bad from a morale point of view. Just imagine Cylons killing rebels/mutineers, asked to do so by Roslin or Adama. How would this look for the people who opposed the alliance with the Cylons, and that must be the popular feeling in the fleet right now? The human elite using Cylons to kill the popular uprising? A real world analogy would be Abbas openly using Israeli forces to stop Hamas from taking power in Gaza, when they did. He would have lost all street cred if he had done that.

The murder of Laird was especially bad for the fleet since he was a competent Chief, a very important function in a fleet that needs to keep its craft running. Similarly, killing Gaeta would not be a great victory for Adama as he would lose one of his last remaining competent officers (and really, are Racetrack and co less guilty than him, in the eyes of Adama?), as well as one of the smartest people in the fleet.

Edited by Wouter, 02 February 2009 - 02:55 PM.

[Werthead]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 19.13, said:

With Cally dead, Tyrol a Cylon and whoever else from the deck crew gone, killing Laird was the pinnacle of folly.  He's practically irreplaceable.  Zarek is a blithering idiot.

They've still got Figurski to fall back on :)

[Ran]

Ser Scot,

No, every body doesn't count. Not when a particular body is a threat to the fleet, as Zarek and Gaeta presently are, and as I think Zarek will always be.

And I mean, seriously, what's the idea here? Is the next logical step is forced breeding programs, with prisoners having to "do their part" with every healthy young woman who can be mustered... ? What's the point?

[davos]

Quote

All I'm saying is that when the population is that small every body counts. As another person pointed out we have no idea whether the Colonials even have invitro technology

There is that arguement. I tend to think that when it comes to such critical decisions that are seen to be life and death for a species that a few deaths, while costly might well seem worth it.  Yeah, those lives are precious but when it comes to survival of the race they are going to think that saving most of the remaining 39000 or so makes those deaths, even a few incidental ones, an acceptable price.  At least in Geatta's mind.  Of course he's let the pent up anger from 4 years of living right on the edge out of the bag.  These people have been holding it together under the worst of circumstances and with the structure that has held them in one piece taken away many of them are going to vent.  Gaetta thinks he is preventing a suicidal choice.  Zarek thinks its time to replace roslin and adama and that he is the best man for the job.  I think both of them anticipated some voilence but are not prepared for the level of wrath that has been boiling underneath.

Quote

I seem to forget when the Quorum authorized Zarek to take action to remove Adama from command of Galactica, detain his senior staff, and conduct drumhead trials prior to execution when they authorized Fleet Capitans to refuse access to engineers installing Cylon jump drives. When was that? That being the case what is the justification for jamming the President's address to the Fleet?

He believes he is doing the right thing and are by their actions saving the fleet. Legal niceties don't apply.  They've been giving lipservice to them for years, probably to maintain a sense of civilization and possibly in the hopes of having a foundation to build a real government on if they ever reached and settled on earth.  Now that hope has been taken from them and now that they are faced with what many see as a self-destructive decision by the current leadership governmental form doesn't matter, survival does.

[aegon6]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 18.33, said:

What I can't believe is Gaeta's "Well you gotta break some eggs" attitude toward Laird being murdered unecessarily (even in light of what they are about to do) right before his eyes.  That, again, invalidates any justification Gaeta and cohorts have at that point.  Murdering when Murder is completely unjustified should have forced Gaeta to wake up.

A murder is a deliberate killing.