406 replies to this topic

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

aegon,

aegon6, on Feb 2 2009, 15.01, said:

A murder is a deliberate killing.

Yeah, I should have used the generic "Killed."

[aegon6]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 19.24, said:

I get that.  However, by the same token every life is important.  I've never understood the callous flippant way the death penalty is thrown around when there are less than 50,000 humans left in the entire universe.

Every life is important but having less than 50,000 doesn't change anything. And actually 50,000 is lot.

[Bronn Stone]

Actually, in almost every US jurisdiction, the killing of Laird would constitute murder.  Because it occurred in the act of committing another crime (breaking out of jail).  And Gaeta, as a party to that other crime, would also be guilty of the murder.

Colonial jurisprudence is not very well defined to us.

[Wouter]

Ran, on Feb 2 2009, 20.59, said:

Ser Scot,

No, every body doesn't count. Not when a particular body is a threat to the fleet, as Zarek and Gaeta presently are, and as I think Zarek will always be.

And I mean, seriously, what's the idea here? Is the next logical step is forced breeding programs, with prisoners having to "do their part" with every healthy young woman who can be mustered... ? What's the point?

What's the point of the alliance with the Cylons - any forced breeding programs in store, there?

And people shouldn't be kept prisoner. Adama gave the Cylons an amnesty, he should do the same for the rebellion.

[mcbigski]

Ran, on Feb 2 2009, 14.45, said:

10,000 people, more or less, will be sufficient to pretty much insure full genetic diversity. They can lost 20,000 people and still be all right as far as genetic diversity goes. And that's just to be absolutely sure -- you can get significantly further down and still have good odds of successful diversification of the gene pool.

I suspect the actual number is even less.  It's suspected that humanity has survived population bottlenecks much smaller than that, and that was in a time period without any transportation available besides walking, so the smaller group was already inbred to begin with.  In the case of the fleet, they have a nearly random cross section of 50 billion people.  Most people in the fleet have only a handful of close relatives, if any at all.  

Genetic diversity really shouldn't be an argument against killing off a few bad apples, if it means the survival of tens of thousands.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Wouter,

Wouter, on Feb 2 2009, 15.12, said:

What's the point of the alliance with the Cylons - any forced breeding programs in store, there?

And people shouldn't be kept prisoner. Adama gave the Cylons an amnesty, he should do the same for the rebellion.

The point of the alliance with the Rebel Cylons is to get the superior jump drives to stretch their limited resources.  To the best of my knowledge no one has mentioned breeding with them.

[Wouter]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 21.18, said:

Wouter,
The point of the alliance with the Rebel Cylons is to get the superior jump drives to stretch their limited resources.  To the best of my knowledge no one has mentioned breeding with them.

It was in response to Ran, who mentioned "breeding program" regarding the defeated mutineers. Obviously, that's not going to happen, still no reason to just shoot all the rebels though.

One of the reasons the Cylon are seeking alliance may be that they actually hope to get more Athena/Helo like pairings, though.

Edited by Wouter, 02 February 2009 - 03:25 PM.

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 14.45, said:

She can't authorize it, but she IS the only one who can replace him or discipline him for it.  Unless she is first replaced.

I'm far from certain the President of the Twelve Colonies is the only person who can discipline a military officer for lawbreaking. Even if that's so, when the president has essentially checked out, does the Quorum stand by and allow that officer to run amok? That's just not realistic.

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 14.48, said:

I seem to forget when the Quorum authorized Zarek to take action to remove Adama from command of Galactica, detain his senior staff, and conduct drumhead trials prior to execution when they authorized Fleet Capitans to refuse access to engineers installing Cylon jump drives.  When was that?  That being the case what is the justification for jamming the President's address to the Fleet?

I never said the Quorum authorized those actions, as well you know. None of that changes the fact that Adama acted unlawfully, Roslin did nothing about it, and so Zarek and Gaeta took matters into their own hands...just like Adama would have done. Hell, at least Zarek bothered with the law; Adama would simply have sent in the Marines.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Tracker,

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 15.22, said:

I never said the Quorum authorized those actions, as well you know. None of that changes the fact that Adama acted unlawfully, Roslin did nothing about it, and so Zarek and Gaeta took matters into their own hands...just like Adama would have done. Hell, at least Zarek bothered with the law; Adama would simply have sent in the Marines.

Yup, Laird got lots of due process right before he was brained.

(I'm teasing at this point.  You've made good points.  I simply think the Adama/Roslin side is "less bad" than the Zarek/Gaeta side.)

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison, 02 February 2009 - 03:31 PM.

[TrackerNeil]

Wouter, on Feb 2 2009, 15.20, said:

One of the reasons the Cylon are seeking alliance may be that they actually hope to get more Athena/Helo like pairings, though.

Yup, and you'd better believe there are some folks in the fleet who are thinking just that. Another reason this proposed alliance must be approached with the greatest of care and diplomacy. Way to go, Bill!

[Crow's Eye]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 2 2009, 14.48, said:

I seem to forget when the Quorum authorized Zarek to take action to remove Adama from command of Galactica, detain his senior staff, and conduct drumhead trials prior to execution when they authorized Fleet Capitans to refuse access to engineers installing Cylon jump drives.  When was that?  That being the case what is the justification for jamming the President's address to the Fleet?

The justification is revolution.  The current leadership failed in every respect.  At this point, Roslin is out of the picture, so why let her address the fleet?  She's only the president because everyone knows that Adama wouldn't recognize Zarek's authority as the rightfully-elected President (once Balter was out of the picture).  So Adama instituted a soft-power military coup to get Roslin back in office.  Zarek's complaints are legitimate.  His use of force is likewise legitimate under these circumstances.  He is balancing a few military lives against the fate of the entire human race.  Zarek isn't quite the person I'd want in charge of the fleet either, but that doesn't mean that change isn't necessary.

Some of the means they use to achieve this end are criminal and outright stuipd, like Laird getting killed, and others are beyond what is necessary, such as all the beatings and rape threats (note: we have seen no actual rapes).  But this doesn't mean that the purpose and focus of the enterprise is faulty.  By the time Roslin tries to address the fleet, the die has been cast.  She missed her chance, and committed her biggest failure by not being there when the fleet needed her the most after the Earth debacle.    If Adama and Roslin won't listen to the Quorum on something so monumental as an alliance with the Cylons and the installation of Cylon technology on their ships by Cylon agents, the Quorum is meaningless and the current government nothing more than a military dictatorship with a power-sharing duo at the top.  If that's the case, by what right do they dictate to the rest of the fleet?  By power and force.  So it shouldn't come as any surprise that this faction arises to take it back by power and force.  

Revolutions are bloody.  Maybe they can't afford to lose even one life right now, but if you weigh these lives against the harm that a short-lived Cylon alliance could bring, it's hard to claim that "breaking some eggs" isn't worth the ultimate goal.  If that weren't the case, no revoluation in the history of mankind would have been "worth it."

Maybe if they had started their revolution by dumping some tea into the harbor airlocking some tillium first, it would be viewed in a more positive light.

Edited by Crow's Eye, 02 February 2009 - 04:38 PM.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 15.40, said:

Yup, and you'd better believe there are some folks in the fleet who are thinking just that. Another reason this proposed alliance must be approached with the greatest of care and diplomacy. Way to go, Bill!

Hey, just repeat the BSG mantra: "Bill's side is always the right side. Bill is always justified in his actions and all of his actions can be justified. Bill is never wrong, immoral, or unjust. All who oppose Bill must somehow be wrong."

Edited by Matrim Fox Cauthon, 02 February 2009 - 04:40 PM.

[Shryke]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 14.13, said:

With Cally dead, Tyrol a Cylon and whoever else from the deck crew gone, killing Laird was the pinnacle of folly.  He's practically irreplaceable.  Zarek is a blithering idiot.

Someone on another site was pointing out that Zarek just murdered the Universes only Aero-space Engineer.

Not a good idea imo.

[TrackerNeil]

Crow's Eye, on Feb 2 2009, 16.35, said:

Maybe if they had started their revolution by dumping some tea into the harbor airlocking some tillium first, it would be viewed in a more positive light.

Heh...they tried that. Adama locked up the VP and threatened the crew of the ship with bodily harm.

[Shryke]

Yeah, cause leaving the fleet stranded and the human race ripe for extinction was a smart first move....

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 12.22, said:

I'm far from certain the President of the Twelve Colonies is the only person who can discipline a military officer for lawbreaking. Even if that's so, when the president has essentially checked out, does the Quorum stand by and allow that officer to run amok? That's just not realistic.

The Supreme Commander of Colonial Forces has to be a direct report to the President.  A military officer has to answer to a superior officer.  The only superior to Adama is the President.

The Quorum's LEGAL options would be to remove the President and then have the replacement President act.

[Crow's Eye]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Feb 2 2009, 16.40, said:

Hey, just repeat the BSG mantra: "Bill's side is always the right side. Bill is always justified in his actions and all of his actions can be justified. Bill is never wrong, immoral, or unjust. All who oppose Bill must somehow be wrong."

Which is why the writers chose to portray the revolutionaries as bad guys in black hats rather than as having any sort of legitimacy.

[Crow's Eye]

Shryke, on Feb 2 2009, 16.50, said:

Yeah, cause leaving the fleet stranded and the human race ripe for extinction was a smart first move....

...which is precisely what the civilians believe will happen when Cylon agents are allowed to tinker with their jump drives...

[kalbear]

Quote

Which is why the writers chose to portray the revolutionaries as bad guys in black hats rather than as having any sort of legitimacy.

That's the thing though - I don't think that's really true. I think that Gaeta has been consistently portrayed as having a very reasonable and legitimate gripe against these people. Some of them really do suck - and they've focused on a lot of the reckoning side - but at the same time it seems like a lot of it is reasonably sympathetic.

Maybe it's me.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kalbear,

Kalbear, on Feb 2 2009, 17.23, said:

That's the thing though - I don't think that's really true. I think that Gaeta has been consistently portrayed as having a very reasonable and legitimate gripe against these people. Some of them really do suck - and they've focused on a lot of the reckoning side - but at the same time it seems like a lot of it is reasonably sympathetic.

Maybe it's me.

I think you're correct.  The problem is Gaeta is going to attract people who don't like Adama.  That includes unsavory characters like Mr. "Can't wait to rape Athena" Spc. Gage and other Cain loyalists who had no where to go when she was killed.