406 replies to this topic

[Bronn Stone]

Kalbear, on Feb 2 2009, 14.23, said:

That's the thing though - I don't think that's really true. I think that Gaeta has been consistently portrayed as having a very reasonable and legitimate gripe against these people. Some of them really do suck - and they've focused on a lot of the reckoning side - but at the same time it seems like a lot of it is reasonably sympathetic.

Maybe it's me.

I agree.  The problem is that Gaeta has had to seek support among the scum of the fleet - Zarek included.  He's had to ally with the Devil even though his complaints are reasonable - though wrong - his course leads to disaster.

[kalbear]

Right - but Crow's Eye was saying that Gaeta et al were portrayed as the Black Hatted Men. I think that's really ludicrous. I think that Adama and friends are shown fairly sympathetically, but at the same time I think it's clear that Gaeta really does have a point - and so does Zarek. The people that are with them are the angry, bitter ones largely - but they for the most part have a very reasonable argument as to why they're so bitter. Athena was one thing, but Tigh as second in command? Ignoring civilian rights? Having no effective say in the governance of their people? It's just madness, and Adama is absolutely in the wrong for the most part.

So I don't see it as an easy black & white solution, and I think they've done a very good job of illustrating this. Heck, amongst the 'good' guys we have Adama, Tigh, Apollo and Starbuck all disagreeing about how to go about things and arguing pretty well the same things the revolutionaries would.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Wouter,

I'm watching it again.  When they grab Anders he doesn't say "Stop it."  He says "Save it."  Very different connotation.

[Swordfish]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 12.22, said:

I'm far from certain the President of the Twelve Colonies is the only person who can discipline a military officer for lawbreaking. Even if that's so, when the president has essentially checked out, does the Quorum stand by and allow that officer to run amok? That's just not realistic.

No.  

They undertake whatever the legal process is for removing the president.

[Shryke]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Feb 2 2009, 16.40, said:

Hey, just repeat the BSG mantra: "Bill's side is always the right side. Bill is always justified in his actions and all of his actions can be justified. Bill is never wrong, immoral, or unjust. All who oppose Bill must somehow be wrong."

Your joking right?

Cause otherwise, you've forgotten the much hallowed first half of S2.

Along with the Mini-series.

And probably a few other parts I'm not thinking of right now.

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 16.50, said:

The Supreme Commander of Colonial Forces has to be a direct report to the President.  A military officer has to answer to a superior officer.  The only superior to Adama is the President.

The Quorum's LEGAL options would be to remove the President and then have the replacement President act.

Except of course that Adama insists upon veto power over the choice for president. He allowed Roslin and Baltar, but refused to allow Zarek...twice. I wonder what he'd do if the Quorum selected anyone Adama thought might gainsay him.

Oh, and even if Adama is a direct report to the president, that doesn't give him carte blanche to break the law.

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 2 2009, 19.43, said:

Oh, and even if Adama is a direct report to the president, that doesn't give him carte blanche to break the law.

Of course not.  But the President is the one who enforces the law, absent a civil law enforcement structure.  The legislature can't take that into their own hands without violating the law themselves.    The legislature can replace the President, but can't just take parts of the job willy-nilly.  A separation of powers between the Legislature and the Executive Branch is an elemental component of American Democracy and we've not been given reason to believe that the Twelve Colonies believed the same thing.

And did Adama really prevent the Quorum from making Zarek acting President?  He bullied them into making another choice, but unless I am forgetting something, they never actually named Zarek President and he never defied an order from Zarek.  Threatening "Do xxxxx and I will rebel" is not the same thing as actually rebelling.

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 23.10, said:

Of course not.  But the President is the one who enforces the law, absent a civil law enforcement structure.  The legislature can't take that into their own hands without violating the law themselves.    The legislature can replace the President, but can't just take parts of the job willy-nilly.  A separation of powers between the Legislature and the Executive Branch is an elemental component of American Democracy and we've not been given reason to believe that the Twelve Colonies believed the same thing.

And did Adama really prevent the Quorum from making Zarek acting President?  He bullied them into making another choice, but unless I am forgetting something, they never actually named Zarek President and he never defied an order from Zarek.  Threatening "Do xxxxx and I will rebel" is not the same thing as actually rebelling.

Bronn, the President of the Twelve Colonies can't give anyone permission to break the law, although she can pardon him/her for doing so. That means no one can break the law. The fact that the Quorum is not empowered to legally stop it doesn't make it not lawbreaking. It just means they can't legally do anything about it. Similarly, a court can issue an order to stop doing this or that, but if law enforcement refuses to act the order is useless, but that doesn't mean that ignoring the order is legal.

As to your question, Adama refused to take Zarek's calls, which meant Zarek had no opportunity to give Adama an order. That's the same as defiance. Also, threatening to rebel may not be rebelling, but it may nonetheless be illegal. For example, if I hit you, I am guilty of battery. If I threaten to hit you unless you hand over your money, I am guilty not of battery but of a different crime (assault, or something). Adama is not a renegade answerable only to the president; he, like everyone else, must obey the laws as dictated by the civilian government. He knows this, because he obeys the laws that suit him; for example, he refused to use a biological weapon without presidential approval. He also obeys presidents he likes or at least can tolerate, such as Baltar and Lee.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 03 February 2009 - 09:25 AM.

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 3 2009, 05.14, said:

Bronn, the President of the Twelve Colonies can't give anyone permission to break the law, although she can pardon him/her for doing so. That means no one can break the law. The fact that the Quorum is not empowered to legally stop it doesn't make it not lawbreaking. It just means they can't legally do anything about it. Similarly, a court can issue an order to stop doing this or that, but if law enforcement refuses to act the order is useless, but that doesn't mean that ignoring the order is legal.

This is exactly my point.   The Quorum has not yet used the only actual legal mechanism available to them - impeachment of the President.  The rest is just them making noise.  And they can't squawk about legal niceties if they don't follow the laws themselves.

The fact that they've existed all this time and haven't bothered to set up a currency, a judicial system or in fact done anything worthy of note makes them to me one of the most useless bodies ever envisioned.  I'd be hard-pressed to take them seriously too if I were Adama. If you want to be treated like a government, act like one.  That is pretty much how Roslin earned his respect.

TrackerNeil, on Feb 3 2009, 05.14, said:

As to your question, Adama refused to take Zarek's calls, which meant Zarek had no opportunity to give Adama an order. That's the same as defiance. Also, threatening to rebel may not be rebelling, but it may nonetheless be illegal. For example, if I hit you, I am guilty of battery. If I threaten to hit you unless you hand over your money, I am guilty not of battery but of a different crime (assault, or something). Adama is not a renegade answerable only to the president; he, like everyone else, must obey the laws as dictated by the civilian government. He knows this, because he obeys the laws that suit him; for example, he refused to use a biological weapon without presidential approval. He also obeys presidents he likes or at least can tolerate, such as Baltar and Lee.

An order does not have to be delivered personally to make it an order.  Had Zarek simply stood at a podium and said, "By the laws of the Twelve Colonies I am the President and I hereby relieve William Adama from command", then such a declaration would have had the force of law.  He didn't.  He deferred.

Your analogy fails.  Threatening to rebel is not the same as threatening to hit some one.  The latter is illegal because there is a specific law forbidding it.  It is more akin to threatening to not pay your taxes.  Until you've actually not paid, you are just blowing smoke.  And in this case, our Caesar was never actually forced to cross the Rubicon.

And yes, Adama has a bit of a reluctant Caesar to him.  But strict discipline and chain of command is essential in running a warship.  When your 'democracy' is a fleet of refugee vessels under intermittent attack from hostile forces, corners will have to be cut.  Especially because I am pretty sure that both you know and I know that on this matter, in the end, Adama is going to be right and the Cylon engine technology OR the alliance with the rebel Cylon faction will end up being the reason for the survival of the human race.

[Crow's Eye]

Kalbear, on Feb 2 2009, 17.42, said:

Right - but Crow's Eye was saying that Gaeta et al were portrayed as the Black Hatted Men.

Yes, that is what I was saying.  

Quote

I think that's really ludicrous.

  

I can understand why you wouldn't agree with me, but I hardly think my opinion qualifies as "ludicrous".  

Quote

I think that Adama and friends are shown fairly sympathetically, but at the same time I think it's clear that Gaeta really does have a point - and so does Zarek. The people that are with them are the angry, bitter ones largely - but they for the most part have a very reasonable argument as to why they're so bitter. Athena was one thing, but Tigh as second in command? Ignoring civilian rights? Having no effective say in the governance of their people? It's just madness, and Adama is absolutely in the wrong for the most part.

I agree comletely that the rationale behind the revolution is based on logic and reason, and I would most likely be on the side of the revolutionaries were I aboard Galactica.  The problem is that the manner in which the writers chose to have the revolution carried out shows one side in a very sympathetic light, while showing the other as brutal rapists and murderers.  They've blurred the line between revolution for noble purposes and revolution for revenge.  Things like choosing to kill Laird in cold blood and having pilots sneer over his corpse, the threats of rape, the fact that they were going to kill Apollo in cold blood, gunning down some officers in cold blood in the CIC, etc.  I don't think any of these were necessary components to this revolution.  Maybe that's the distinction that they're trying to draw between Gaeta and Zarek - that Zarek is the bloody murderer, and Gaeta had the noble purpose, but in the end they're both just as guilty.  Either way, the purpose of the revolution is lost to many a viewer when the revolutionaries are themselves rapists and murderers.

Contrast with Adama, Tigh & the gang, who are clearly shown as the noble people who just made a little mistake in governing.  Sure, Starbuck killed one guard, but why didn't she kill Racetrack's copilot? Instead she just shoots him in the shoulder.  Why didn't starbuck kill the prisoner?  Because white-hat Bill stepped in between them and let the guy go.  At least Adama gunned down the other marine.  

None of this is necessarily inconsistent with the characters and their particular arcs, which was nicely done, but the manner in which the revolution was carried out overshadows the purpose of the revolution, which was probably the more just, democratic and reasonable approach (as opposed to letting the Adama/Roslin dictatorship continue to run the show).  

So while my "black hat" characterization may go a bit too far, the writers have certainly chosen to carry out this revolution in a manner that allows the actions of the revolutionaries to overshadow their otherwise reasonable and logical purpose.  Come on, we're certainly made to feel some sympathy for the Adama crowd - did you feel any sympathy whatsoever for Zarek, Gaeta, and their band of marauders once the revolution began?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CE,

The manner of the mutiny is believable because of who the revoultion would draw its support from.  The "Sons of Ares, the Pegesus "gang rape is Fun!" Crowd, etc...

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 3 2009, 10.17, said:

An order does not have to be delivered personally to make it an order.  Had Zarek simply stood at a podium and said, "By the laws of the Twelve Colonies I am the President and I hereby relieve William Adama from command", then such a declaration would have had the force of law.  He didn't.  He deferred.

Your analogy fails. Threatening to rebel is not the same as threatening to hit some one. The latter is illegal because there is a specific law forbidding it. It is more akin to threatening to not pay your taxes. Until you've actually not paid, you are just blowing smoke. And in this case, our Caesar was never actually forced to cross the Rubicon.

If the US military simply refused to take Barack Obama's calls, no one would reasonably interpret that as anything but defiance. If the military said, "We're not going to obey any commander-in-chief except John McCain," no one would reasonably interpret that as anything but a soft-power military coup. The threat of violence, in this instance, is the same as the execution of violence.

Zarek tried to give Adama orders, and was ignored, and it wasn't the first time Adama refused to acknowledge Zarek's authority. He'd done the same after New Caprica, when he basically forced Zarek to resign. I don't know how you can ignore that.

As to this "reluctant Caesar" stuff, I know Adama's a good man, and so does Gaeta. Adama always intends well, but unfortunately leaders have to do more than intend well; they actually have to do well. Adama took the attitude, "Accept my decision or I send in the Marines", which in the current dispirited, demoralized state of affairs, was a virtual invitation for trouble. And trouble is exactly what he got. In spades. If he'd actually bothered to let the political process work, and if Roslin had gotten involved, they might have been able to sell this Cylon alliance to the Quorum and the people.

[Guy Kilmore]

Trackerneil,

Quote

He also obeys presidents he likes or at least can tolerate, such as Baltar and Lee

I think you are mistaken about Adama's motivation.  He, eventually, followed Baltar, this lead to New Caprica and the subsequent disaster that lead to a large loss of life.  It also lead to the loss of the Pegasus and other civilian ships.  I could see Adama being motivated in following his gut over someone who he percieves as a bad leader, he has a very concrete reason that happened in the not too distant past.

In regards to the legality or the rationale of the mutiny, in my mind it has very little to do with allying with the Cylons.  Hummanity has broken.  The people are hurt and angry, they feel betrayed because hope has been killed.  I would almost say that there is mass "depression" going on.  This isn't about Adama's rough treatment of civilian authority, but about the rage of not finding the home they hoped for.  This is about a loss of purpose and self.  The beliefs that alot of the populace held is ripped away, any sense of order and identity is gone.  This is about lashing out from pain.  It is what drives the mutineers, it is what drove Starbuck.  The actions or inactions of Adama, Rosyln, Zarek, Gaeta et al. are merely symptons of this phenonenom (sp?).  It didn't matter what any of them did, something like this was going to happen.

Edited by Guy Kilmore, 03 February 2009 - 11:11 AM.

[TrackerNeil]

Guy Kilmore, on Feb 3 2009, 11.10, said:

Trackerneil,

I think you are mistaken about Adama's motivation.  He, eventually, followed Baltar, this lead to New Caprica and the subsequent disaster that lead to a large loss of life.  It also lead to the loss of the Pegasus and other civilian ships.  I could see Adama being motivated in following his gut over someone who he percieves as a bad leader, he has a very concrete reason that happened in the not too distant past.

Adama did not "eventually" follow Baltar; he recognized Baltar's authority right away. Hell, he even insisted that Roslin back off from fixing the election that Baltar won. That's certainly a far cry from the way Adama treated Baltar's democratically elected vice-president, whom Adama refused to allow to take office, leading to that back-room deal with Roslin, who has never won an election in her life.

[Crow's Eye]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Feb 3 2009, 10.51, said:

CE,

The manner of the mutiny is believable because of who the revoultion would draw its support from.  The "Sons of Ares, the Pegesus "gang rape is Fun!" Crowd, etc...

Right.  It's all consistent and within the bounds of the characters, and I don't have any continuity problems in how they've acted and reacted.  But just because these characters "could" act in this way doesn't mean that they absolutely had to.  The writers had many opportunities to characterize the revolutionaries as "righteous" in their cause, but instead chose to send them down a dark path.  Which is fine with me - it was a great episode - i just thought they lost an opportunity to blur the lines between "good" and "bad" to a greater extent.

For Example:  The writers could just as easily had Mr. Gang Rape beat Helo down and drag him to a cell on charges of murder of a Fleet officer and treasonous collaboration with the Cylons.  He could have been just as angry and it would have been completely consistent with the show and the characters.  But they included the rape threats, which quickly overshadowed how Gang Rape was right in every other respect.    So now instead of showing how Gang Rape was correct with his charges, Helo & his family are shown as the sympathetic characters trying to avoid the terrible harms that the bad guys are about to bring down upon them.  

It's not a question of whether the choices the writers made were consistent with the characters - they totally were, in just about every way I can think of.  But because the revolution could have been carried out without these other unnecessary acts or threats of violence, and that also would not have been inconsistent with all of the characters, the writers deliberately chose to make the revolutionaries unsympathetic despite the justness of their cause.  Which is why I made the "ludicrous" black hat comment

[Guy Kilmore]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 3 2009, 11.04, said:

Adama did not "eventually" follow Baltar; he recognized Baltar's authority right away. Hell, he even insisted that Roslin back off from fixing the election that Baltar won. That's certainly a far cry from the way Adama treated Baltar's democratically elected vice-president, whom Adama refused to allow to take office, leading to that back-room deal with Roslin, who has never won an election in her life.

For some odd reason, I was remembering that Adama had a part in fixing the election, but you are right that it was Roslyn and Tigh against Adama's advise.  

Your correction further proves the point I am trying to make.  Adama had misgivings about Baltar and what he was about, he ignored these and followed the due process of law.  This resulted in the debacle that was New Caprica.  Adama has a very real reason as to why he should listen to these misgivings in the future, look at the deaths and risks that it presented to all of humanity.  I think there is a very genuine desire on Adama's part to avoid this again, it is just how does he go about it in an effective way.  Does he resist and make his concerns apparent before this leader is put in place or does he resist the bad decisions once this leader is in place?  (I will also admit that we could discuss if Adama is a "good" leader or not.)

The only reason I bring this up is because it looks like Adama's resistance to Zarek being president is being presented as irrational or as "poor decision-making/leadership" and some of the arguements being presented.  Where I can see some rational reasons as to Adama's resistance.

[Guy Kilmore]

Crow's Eye, on Feb 3 2009, 11.05, said:

It's not a question of whether the choices the writers made were consistent with the characters - they totally were, in just about every way I can think of.  But because the revolution could have been carried out without these other unnecessary acts or threats of violence, and that also would not have been inconsistent with all of the characters, the writers deliberately chose to make the revolutionaries unsympathetic despite the justness of their cause.  Which is why I made the "ludicrous" black hat comment

I think the morality of the rebellion isn't the focus of the theme going on.  The past episode or so we saw everyone breaking down, repruccusions (sp?) of having hope torn away from them.  We are now experiencing the same on a macro scale.  This was going to happen, no matter what, Gaeta and Zarek simply provided an outlet.  We see the same issue being mirrored between Adama and Starbuck.  Colonial society has hit a breaking point and the populace at large sees no hope.

[kalbear]

Yeah - after Baltar I think that Adama is not going to simply follow due process if it means going against normal reasonable things. I think he's done playing nice with the civilians. Which makes what he's done to stir the rebellion that much more believable, and that much more sad.

[TrackerNeil]

Kalbear, on Feb 3 2009, 12.36, said:

Yeah - after Baltar I think that Adama is not going to simply follow due process if it means going against normal reasonable things. I think he's done playing nice with the civilians. Which makes what he's done to stir the rebellion that much more believable, and that much more sad.

Yup. To be honest, I see this as more Roslin's fault than Adama's. Adama sucks at politics, she knows it, and she had a duty to step up and take things in hand before they got way, way out of hand. Which they are now, to be sure.

I don't really know how this gets resolved. Even if Roslin and Adama get back on top, they certainly can't kill everyone involved with the mutiny, not unless they want to run Galactica. Ron Moore has already said that the battlestar's understaffed, and it looks to me like a goodly percentage of the crew backed Gaeta's move. Zarek and Gaeta have to face the noose, certainly, but I think they'll have to pardon most of the rest, if only out of necessity. Besides, if Cylons and Cylon collaborators can receive amnesty...

[GoN]

Maybe the reporters should have been recruited conscripted.

(:P)

Edited by Ghost of Nymeria, 03 February 2009 - 02:01 PM.