406 replies to this topic

[Swordfish]

TrackerNeil, on Feb 3 2009, 10.59, said:

Yup. To be honest, I see this as more Roslin's fault than Adama's. Adama sucks at politics, she knows it, and she had a duty to step up and take things in hand before they got way, way out of hand. Which they are now, to be sure.

I don't really know how this gets resolved. Even if Roslin and Adama get back on top, they certainly can't kill everyone involved with the mutiny, not unless they want to run Galactica. Ron Moore has already said that the battlestar's understaffed, and it looks to me like a goodly percentage of the crew backed Gaeta's move.

A lot of marines seem to have, and some pilots.  not sure about the rest of the crew.  We'll just have to wait and see i suppose.

[Colder Hands]

loved the last episode. sat at the edge of my seat all episode. great TV. can't wait for friday.

[Guy Kilmore]

Swordfish, on Feb 3 2009, 13.08, said:

A lot of marines seem to have, and some pilots.  not sure about the rest of the crew.  We'll just have to wait and see i suppose.

I personally think numbers are hard to tell.  The mutineers are organized and are moving together, whereas the loyal are scattered and unprepared.  From the reports of combatants and people running around there looks to be alot of resistance.

[Wouter]

Bronn Stone, on Feb 2 2009, 23.28, said:

I agree.  The problem is that Gaeta has had to seek support among the scum of the fleet - Zarek included.  He's had to ally with the Devil even though his complaints are reasonable - though wrong - his course leads to disaster.

In the next episode, Roslin may well be attempting to use Cylon forces (of the baseship, not the 5) to fight against Gaeta and Zarek. If that happens, that'd be a bit worse than the rapist that make up a few of the mutineers. Considering all that the Cylons have done so far...

Crow's eye;

Quote

But just because these characters "could" act in this way doesn't mean that they absolutely had to. The writers had many opportunities to characterize the revolutionaries as "righteous" in their cause, but instead chose to send them down a dark path. Which is fine with me - it was a great episode - i just thought they lost an opportunity to blur the lines between "good" and "bad" to a greater extent.

I agree, I had the same feeling especially when they murdered Laird. The way this scene was scripted and played, it was definitely meant to evoke sympathy for Adama's side and paint the rebels in a very negative light (allthough they wavered a bit with Gaeta, who was at least seen trying to not have Laird killed, though he didn't condemn the murder clearly enough).
On the other hand, the scene where Starbuck shot on Nowart was quite similar to when Gaeta's men fired in CiC. Both Gaeta and Adama tried to stop it and neither really managed - but of course, the writers did make the easy choice of only the CiC incident having deadly consequence. It's quite clear who the audience "must" root for, as far as the producers go.

Edited by Wouter, 03 February 2009 - 03:15 PM.

[Shryke]

There wasn't much choice on that front. Gaeta's mutiny, no matter how understandable it may be, was gonna be bloody no matter what. Which is why, in the end, it's a bad idea. It was gonna get nasty and lead to alot of killing and everyone but Gaeta understood that.

[Wouter]

There is (very long) Grace Park interview here: http://www.galactica...-interview.html

The following passage says a lot about how BSG has been written/produced, especially with regards to the Cylon characters:

Quote

[The Plan -- I mean the title itself just tells you it's more about the Cylon perspective, and so we went back and we dealt a little bit more with Boomer and some with Cavil. And that kind of threw me for a huge loop because there are a lot of scenes that aren't explained, so as actors we fill them in ourselves as best we can. And somewhere along the line, I think it was when I got the script for The Plan, they offered a bunch of new information that really didn't fit with what I had sort of built everything else on for the last four or five years. So I kind of feel like I've built a stick house on a pile of rocks that can all just fall down.

I was just doing ADR today and more and more often I'll be stumped, just trying to figure out, "Which Sharon is this again? Can you guys help me out, because I'm really lost."

It looks like basically, the actress had to fanwank her own character, because the writers were taking weird, shocking turns with her and not bothering to explain anything, not just to the audience but also not the actress involved. And then they turn around again and retro-actively invent another interpretation/motivation for "the plan", that is not quite compatible with what Park had in mind. It's such a pity that BSG is made up completely as they go, it could have been so much better with just a little bit of planning. And it is also a shame that the show has never bothered to develop believable and consistent individual Cylon characters (outside the final five, which themselves are also not very consistently written, except for Tyrol and Anders perhaps).

[Shryke]

Huh? Tigh and Tory are both perfectly consistent. As are most/all of the Cylons.

And I wouldn't trust actors on knowing wtf is going on in the bigger picture.

Edited by Shryke, 03 February 2009 - 03:26 PM.

[EHK for Darwin]

Guy Kilmore, on Feb 3 2009, 10.10, said:

In regards to the legality or the rationale of the mutiny, in my mind it has very little to do with allying with the Cylons.  Hummanity has broken.  The people are hurt and angry, they feel betrayed because hope has been killed.  I would almost say that there is mass "depression" going on.  This isn't about Adama's rough treatment of civilian authority, but about the rage of not finding the home they hoped for.  This is about a loss of purpose and self.  The beliefs that alot of the populace held is ripped away, any sense of order and identity is gone.  This is about lashing out from pain.  It is what drives the mutineers, it is what drove Starbuck.  The actions or inactions of Adama, Rosyln, Zarek, Gaeta et al. are merely symptons of this phenonenom (sp?).  It didn't matter what any of them did, something like this was going to happen.

That is a cause, but not the trigger. Nor was it a cause that necessarily had to have this effect. Defeat and disappointment on this scale can have adverse effects (NAZI's, Bolsheviks), but it is not a guarantee of them. Pushing an alliance that presented a legitimate threat to the survival of humanity over the objections of much of the fleet without an ounce of diplomacy on the matter and against the wishes of the legitimate civilian government caused this. The disappointment of the long held dream of earth merely laid the foundation for an such an excessive reaction to power abuse, but without the power abuse, this does not happen.

Quote

Right. It's all consistent and within the bounds of the characters, and I don't have any continuity problems in how they've acted and reacted. But just because these characters "could" act in this way doesn't mean that they absolutely had to. The writers had many opportunities to characterize the revolutionaries as "righteous" in their cause, but instead chose to send them down a dark path. Which is fine with me - it was a great episode - i just thought they lost an opportunity to blur the lines between "good" and "bad" to a greater extent.

Honestly I think they're blurred well enough. Adama's disinterested dismissal of the civilian government, his enforcing of his will despite their protests, Roslin's abandonment of her duties, its impossible not to point a finger at them for allowing this to happen. Further, Starbuck isn't rape happy, but she is kill happy of defenseless prisoners. Gaeta believes he's doing the right thing and is clearly disturbed by the bloodshed. He's a sympathetic enough character in this mess. Many side characters who we've come to know and even like have joined him in this. There is enough sympathy and condemnation to go around for both sides. The presentation of this coup works as both realistic given the context and reasonably ambiguous for either side. Hell, these several pages of discussion (when was the last time a single episode spawned this much debate?) should be evidence enough that the show left enough room to reasonably pick sides. The lines are blurred enough.

Quote

The only reason I bring this up is because it looks like Adama's resistance to Zarek being president is being presented as irrational or as "poor decision-making/leadership" and some of the arguements being presented. Where I can see some rational reasons as to Adama's resistance.

I don't think its being presented as bad decision-making, but an example (one of many) where Adama clearly flouted and disregarded the law. The military running roughshod over the civilian to get the leader he likes. He almost always has good intentions with these things, but it makes it hard for him to cry foul when others disregard oaths and law to remove him. Which is what people were pointing out. The hypocrisy.

Quote

I agree, I had the same feeling especially when they murdered Laird. The way this scene was scripted and played, it was definitely meant to evoke sympathy for Adama's side and paint the rebels in a very negative light (allthough they wavered a bit with Gaeta, who was at least seen trying to not have Laird killed, though he didn't condemn the murder clearly enough).

I don't really know if evoking sympathy was the purpose, or at least not the primary purpose. I think it was as straight forward as Zarek suggested. Showing up front to Gaeta (and us, if we still needed confirmation) that this was not going to be a bloodless revolution. That innocents would die. And to test whether the new leadership had the stomach for it.

For this storyline to work, the episode almost had to happen this way. (or some variation of it) A coup without bloodshed would have been redundant and boring at this point. Revolutionaries without some questionable or unsavory motives would be unrealistic. I think they did a good job of presenting it all in a believable fashion that's reasonably in character with most of the players.


And if the next episode has Roslin attacking with Cylons from the Cylon baseship, she's essentially destroyed any legitimacy she may have had. If they do go that route, I hope that's acknowledged.

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Feb 3 2009, 14.26, said:

Huh? Tigh and Tory are both perfectly consistent. As are most/all of the Cylons.

And I wouldn't trust actors on knowing wtf is going on in the bigger picture.

Wouter's main point still stands and is pretty indisputable, neither the writer's nor the producers knew what the bigger picture was either. And they sure as fuck didn't communicate even their vague notions to the actors either. They are making much of this up as they go, have been since the earliest season, and retconning as they see fit to shove their new ideas into the context they created. Sometimes it fits, sometimes its incredibly clumsy. Either way, the whole product would've been much better if they had an actual plan. But it seems pretty clear that they've got one from here on out, so lets see how it plays.

[kalbear]

It's interesting how little screen time Grace Park has gotten as of late. She's a main title character, but she's barely been represented so far and didn't exactly have a lot of time before.

[Shryke]

EHK for a True GOP, on Feb 3 2009, 15.34, said:

Wouter's main point still stands and is pretty indisputable, neither the writer's nor the producers knew what the bigger picture was either. And they sure as fuck didn't communicate even their vague notions to the actors either. They are making much of this up as they go, have been since the earliest season, and retconning as they see fit to shove their new ideas into the context they created. Sometimes it fits, sometimes its incredibly clumsy. Either way, the whole product would've been much better if they had an actual plan. But it seems pretty clear that they've got one from here on out, so lets see how it plays.

It's been plotted out the way most shows are. Vague ideas that are filled in later.

This whole thing with the "Final Five" though has been kinda stupid right from the start. There'd better be a good explanation for it.

And his comments about bad Cylon characterization are still complete bullshit.

Quote

It's interesting how little screen time Grace Park has gotten as of late. She's a main title character, but she's barely been represented so far and didn't exactly have a lot of time before.

Eh, her character hasn't been all that interesting for awhile now. I'm betting we'll see a bunch more of her when Cavil re-enters the story.

Edited by Shryke, 03 February 2009 - 03:42 PM.

[Wouter]

Shryke, on Feb 3 2009, 21.14, said:

There wasn't much choice on that front. Gaeta's mutiny, no matter how understandable it may be, was gonna be bloody no matter what. Which is why, in the end, it's a bad idea. It was gonna get nasty and lead to alot of killing and everyone but Gaeta understood that.

The killing of Laird was unnecessary and very wasteful, and even Zarek really had no motive to do it. Just subduing him - not too hard with the element of surprise and numerical advantage - would have been easily doable. And Zarek just happened to hit him hard enough that Laird was dead so instantly that medical care wasn't even considered? And only Gaeta looks like he thinks it's a shame, others stupidly smirk at Laird (who hasn't done anyone wrong on Galactica and is a quite timid guy). It was absolutely not necessary to portray the rebellion like this. Show it's bloody, OK, but show this in battle.

Gaeta understood it would be bloody; he wasn't surprised. Just sad, as one of few with a conscience remaining among a bunch of bastards on either side.

Tigh is not consistent over the entire show, he was totally different on New Caprica where he became the leader of the local Al-Qaida group. If you take out New Caprica he is fairly consistent though. Otherwise his lack of bloodlust and use of kamikaze tactics really constrast harshly with his New Caprica "kill everyone, starting with your own guys" attittude.

Tory's got a total make-over on becoming a Cylon, from the anonymous president's aide to superbitch with "imperious leader" like ambition.

From the other Cylons, the most prominent named ones tend to change personality about every other time we see them, especially Caprica-6 and Boomer, while Athena is only marginally better as she changed a few times within S2 and then got a total makeover for S3. The rest tends to either die quickly or is just a generic example of their line, with different examples of the same line sometimes getting mixed up by the writers (D'Anna /D'Anna Biers) or never getting differentiated at all (Leoben/Cavil) or never getting any personality at all (Doral/Simon). Gina and Natalie are perhaps the most consistent Cylons in having a stable personality, but both were killed off quickly.

As not trusting the actors to know what is going on, how can they act it if they don't know what a characters motivation are for doing what they do (often shocking things that don't seem to be consistent with earlier experiences)? How can they act if they don't understand their own character, because the writers won't tell them (and don't know themselves, basically)? How is Grace Park supposed to act wrt Cavil, if the writers won't explain why Boomer is now suddenly, out of the blue, in Cavil's camp?

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Feb 3 2009, 14.41, said:

It's been plotted out the way most shows are. Vague ideas that are filled in later.

Most shows aren't serials. And just about every major serial not on HBO and Showtime have suffered from this lack of clear direction, planning, and foundation. I think its time for 'most shows' of this kind to take a different path.

[Shryke]

EHK for a True GOP, on Feb 3 2009, 15.45, said:

Most shows aren't serials. And just about every major serial not on HBO and Showtime have suffered from this lack of clear direction, planning, and foundation. I think its time for 'most shows' of this kind to take a different path.

I'd agree mostly. But there's major issues with that, especially in TV production. You've got to be flexible, because you can't always count on your actors sticking it out the whole way through.

The B5 arc, probably the most plotted-out-in-advance show ever, changed SIGNIFICANTLY from it's original plan.

[kalbear]

Quote

Tigh is not consistent over the entire show, he was totally different on New Caprica where he became the leader of the local Al-Qaida group. If you take out New Caprica he is fairly consistent though. Otherwise his lack of bloodlust and use of kamikaze tactics really constrast harshly with his New Caprica "kill everyone, starting with your own guys" attittude.

I disagree completely. Tigh's behavior is perfectly in line. What you have to understand is what he's like on his own. When he doesn't have Adama there, he's self-destructive, nihilistic and extreme. He's vindictive, brutal, and mean. He's always been this way, and you see it sometimes when Adama is there. But when he's not, he's loose.

Think of the first time we saw him in the pilot. One of his most memorable command decisions was to kill the damage control team so that the fire could be put out. That was our introduction to Saul Tigh. How this is inconsistent with NC and with what we're seeing now, I have no idea.

I think Six - Baltar's Six - has been portrayed similarly consistently; her reaction to the revolt was right out of her hateful reaction in the first season. Paranoid, violent, spiritual.

Quote

As not trusting the actors to know what is going on, how can they act it if they don't know what a characters motivation are for doing what they do (often shocking things that don't seem to be consistent with earlier experiences)? How can they act if they don't understand their own character, because the writers won't tell them (and don't know themselves, basically)? How is Grace Park supposed to act wrt Cavil, if the writers won't explain why Boomer is now suddenly, out of the blue, in Cavil's camp?

It's not that hard. Actors make their own motivations, actors ask the directors, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Often it simply doesn't matter; it's not an influencing part of the show and it's not important. For us, it's not that important why Cavil has entranced Boomer, because, well, we don't actually interact with Boomer all that much.

[Arakasi]

Yes, but that was due to acting changes and changes forced on them because they thought they were going to be canceled. That is much different from BSG, where they've not had to deal with that and have gone off the seat of their pants.

Plus the proof is in the pudding so to speak. The most egrarious thing that JMS did was the switching from Sinclair to Sheridan. And what did that change to the viewers? Basically changed how the result of B^2 to War without End changed. Most of the rest of the stuff was remarkably consistent. And more importantly, it made sense to the viewer. It worked, it didn't make the audience go WTF like BSG does constantly.

[Shryke]

Wouter, on Feb 3 2009, 15.44, said:

The killing of Laird was unnecessary and very wasteful, and even Zarek really had no motive to do it. Just subduing him - not too hard with the element of surprise and numerical advantage - would have been easily doable. And Zarek just happened to hit him hard enough that Laird was dead so instantly that medical care wasn't even considered? And only Gaeta looks like he thinks it's a shame, others stupidly smirk at Laird (who hasn't done anyone wrong on Galactica and is a quite timid guy). It was absolutely not necessary to portray the rebellion like this. Show it's bloody, OK, but show this in battle.

Gaeta understood it would be bloody; he wasn't surprised. Just sad, as one of few with a conscience remaining among a bunch of bastards on either side.

That's cause, as has been pointed out many times, the people Gaeta is drawing on in the mutiny are the nastier elements of the military. The REAL Cylon haters, the disgruntled, the angry, etc. These are not nice people.

Quote

Tigh is not consistent over the entire show, he was totally different on New Caprica where he became the leader of the local Al-Qaida group. If you take out New Caprica he is fairly consistent though. Otherwise his lack of bloodlust and use of kamikaze tactics really constrast harshly with his New Caprica "kill everyone, starting with your own guys" attittude.

What's inconsistent about Tigh? Tigh, right from the miniseries, is shown to be a cold bastard when in charge, and willing to sacrifice men. He's always been ruthless and uncaring of the consequences outside of fulfilling his duty. And on New Caprica, his duty was to resist teh Cylon occupation. To keep them jumpy and nervous and off balance.

Quote

Tory's got a total make-over on becoming a Cylon, from the anonymous president's aide to superbitch with "imperious leader" like ambition.

Yeah, and that was the fucking point. She completely remakes herself. The knowledge that she's now a Cylon FREES her. She feels like a new person, like she can completely re-invent herself, without fear. It's perfectly consistent.

Quote

From the other Cylons, the most prominent named ones tend to change personality about every other time we see them, especially Caprica-6 and Boomer, while Athena is only marginally better as she changed a few times within S2 and then got a total makeover for S3. The rest tends to either die quickly or is just a generic example of their line, with different examples of the same line sometimes getting mixed up by the writers (D'Anna /D'Anna Biers) or never getting differentiated at all (Leoben/Cavil) or never getting any personality at all (Doral/Simon). Gina and Natalie are perhaps the most consistent Cylons in having a stable personality, but both were killed off quickly.

Boomer is consistent (although we're still not completely sure why she's allied herself with Cavil) She finds out she's a Cylon, she denies it. Then she tries to kill Adama (the man she respects more then (almost) anyone else) and then she becomes hated by her own crew, the man she loves tells her he hates her and then she's murdered by one of her crew. So, yeah, she's slightly pissed at the Colonials.

Athena's been the same. Although we miss out on the majority of her bonding with Adama over the gap. And Caprica-6 has been fine too (unless your confusing Caprica-6 with Head-6)

[kalbear]

I think the biggest flaw that BSG had was saying 'and they have a plan' constantly when, in fact, they did not have any kind of plan. Using that as their slogan for 2 seasons was hugely problematic, and it's a big retcon to go back and try and figure out what the hell is going on.

At some times this has made BSG weaker; the "plan" thing that's kind of sucked hard, and a lot of the meandering of S3. At other points being able to be flexible and emphasize certain people over others has been a huge strength. Making the show around Saul and Ellen is pretty awesome, for instance, even if they're ancillary. The one year leap forward ended up with a really compelling short story arc. The mystery cylons they chose ended up being largely awesome. None of those things could have been planned from the first season because, well, they didn't make sense. Tigh as a cylon doesn't make a lick of sense; having all the final 5 on Galactica at some point or another (or even survive the holocaust) doesn't make sense. But it's still really awesome.

B5, by comparison, didn't have the flexibility to deal with Ivanova leaving or really have a story to deal with after S4 ended, and as a result the final season sucked hard. When they didn't need the flexibility it was pretty great, but when it did it was rigid and poor.

[Shryke]

Arakasi, on Feb 3 2009, 15.56, said:

Yes, but that was due to acting changes and changes forced on them because they thought they were going to be canceled. That is much different from BSG, where they've not had to deal with that and have gone off the seat of their pants.

Plus the proof is in the pudding so to speak. The most egrarious thing that JMS did was the switching from Sinclair to Sheridan. And what did that change to the viewers? Basically changed how the result of B^2 to War without End changed. Most of the rest of the stuff was remarkably consistent. And more importantly, it made sense to the viewer. It worked, it didn't make the audience go WTF like BSG does constantly.

You should read one of the last B5 thread. When the last of the Script Books got published, they included an extra book, which had, among other things, a description of the "original" arc for the series. VERY different from what we got, mostly post-Shadow War. (Although what ACTUALLY happened was much better)

Originally B5 would be destroyed at the end of the 5 years and Sinclair and Delenn would have stolen B4 to use as a base to protect themselves from the Mimbari Warrior Caste, who would be trying to kill them for creating an "abomination" of a half-human half-mimbari child. Or something pretty close to that.

And while BSG has had some serious WTF moments (so did B5), you can't fault the series for that till it's finished and they still haven't explained them. There's still quite a few shows left and they are apparently going to explain alot, so you can't judge it yet.

[TrackerNeil]

EHK for a True GOP, on Feb 3 2009, 15.30, said:

And if the next episode has Roslin attacking with Cylons from the Cylon baseship, she's essentially destroyed any legitimacy she may have had. If they do go that route, I hope that's acknowledged.

Yeah, I'm not sure how she'll get past that to govern very well. I suppose she could kill enough people to cow the rest, assuming she wants to rule like a banana republic dictator. Which some would say isn't far from what she's doing now.