178 replies to this topic

[Howlin' Howland]

And we are supposed to dislike this decision and think she is stupid because....?
Because we know what happened later on and it affected characters we like. Eddard, Arya...whoever. Conveniently forgeting all the roles other characters had to play in each event so we can blame it all on Catelyn.
Doesnt make sense to me, really.


OK, maybe I'm not being clear.  EVERY decision Cat made turned out to be a disaster (except for her opposition to sending Theon as an emmisary).

All of her decisions (unlike most characters) looked like the right call when she made them.

This is a unique set in the series.  at least six reasonable decisions all of which blow up in the characters face.  Hell, I'd be hard pressed to find someone else who made six reasonable decisions.

Cat is cursed.  I don't think she's stupid or bad.  I just want her as far away from me as possibe.

[Ran]

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And no character in the series makes even half the number of bad calls (even Aerys)

That's a mighty big claim. He only went around committing willing atrocities to left and right and thinking he could get away with it.

[Howlin' Howland]

Ran, on Jan 26 2009, 08.43, said:

That's a mighty big claim. He only went around committing willing atrocities to left and right and thinking he could get away with it.

First, Aerys only made one mistake that blew up in his face.  Killing Rickard and Brandon.

Second, I think Aerys was practicing blood magic and needed to burn someone with kings blood for a spell (Rickard is the only person with kings blood actually burned alive in the series).  Without the magic I doubt Dany is able to hatch dragons, it's why I think Aerys is a hero (a sick crazy one) but without him Westeros falls to the Others.

I've listed six mistakes of Cat and none of them save the world of man.

[Errant Bard]

If we are playing at "What-if", let me speculate further:

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.31, said:

If Eddard renounces the Handship Robert wouldn't come after him and after Robert is assassinated Eddard could stay north.

It is so far from direct repercussion that even characters cannot see that responsibility, and that I will list alternative speculation to your "they live happily ever after":

When the wights attack, Ned rides north and gets killed. Winterfell never falls and Bran never gets to go North and meet Coldhands. Ned never argues against sending a Faceless Man against Dany and she dies, the realms comes united under Littlefinger, Robert dies, Tywin lives, Arya never meets Syrio or Gendry or Jaqen and becomes an helpless princess really married to Ramsay Bolton. Littlefinger continues to harass the Starks (he was at the origin of the anti-lannisters warning), eventually leading to their downfall without them having tried to retaliate once. Readers loathes the family of coward huddling behind their castle walls because they refused to follow the advice of Catelyn to try to stand up and win. Jon never becomes Lord Commander of the Night's watch, Sam is killed during training, noone finds the horn of winter or the obsidian, wildlings take the Wall and the NW is decimated.

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If Cat never negotiates a marriage contract with the Freys Robb has to fall back north of the Neck, the Ironmen never invade the North and Robb is still alive.

Robb would have stormed the walls and possibly died, or at any rate been ready to get crushed by Tywin following the battle, reread the scene.

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If Robb places and Umbar in charge of his foot, Tywins plan works and Robb is trapped west of the river seeking passage by ship to the north and is probably still alive.

And what character is going to see Robb getting trapped and losing as a good thing? What reader, aside from you, is going to assume that Catelyn giving him advice to make him lose would make her less "wrong"?

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If Cat doesn't free Jaime the Karstarks stay with Robb and the Red Wedding may not have happened.

It would have happened, the Red Wedding was to soothe the Freys. As far as I recall, Freys are pissed off no matter what Kastark does, and their position is strategic, I don't see what having a few reluctant Kastarks changes to this situation.

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Listening to Cat is about the stupidest thing you can do.  Not because she's stupid, but because she is always wrong.

She is always right, only other people screw up. The responsibility isn't at her feet. When Robb doesn't listen to her, he still is wrong, you'll notice. And whatever her decision yields, there is no lesson to draw from it for the characters, as when it all comes crashing down, it is too late for that.

[Ran]

Howlin,

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First, Aerys only made one mistake that blew up in his face....

So alienating the Dornishmen, alienating Rhaegar, taking Jaime into the Kingsguard, planning to destroy King's Landing, and alienating Tywin weren't mistakes that ultimately blew up in his face... ? ;)

And what EB says. There are plenty of occasions where Catelyn is right (Theon, perhaps the whole war business, the Baratheon infighting, etc.), but she's disregarded at all teh wrong times.

Edited by Ran, 26 January 2009 - 09:37 AM.

[Howlin' Howland]

Ran, on Jan 26 2009, 09.35, said:

Howlin,



So alienating the Dornishmen, alienating Rhaegar, taking Jaime into the Kingsguard, planning to destroy King's Landing, and alienating Tywin weren't mistakes that ultimately blew up in his face... ? ;)

And what EB says. There are plenty of occasions where Catelyn is right (Theon, perhaps the whole war business, the Baratheon infighting, etc.), but she's disregarded at all teh wrong times.

The only two times Cat is disregarded by her ALLIES are about Theon and about naming Jon as heir.  Every other time she is listened to and ultimately agreed with.

The Baratheons ignore her but they aren't her allies.  Robb expected that to be a tough sell.

Aerys made lots of mistakes.  But the only one that did him in was killing Rickard and Brandon.  The Dornish still favor the Targs.  Rhaegar wanted to displace him but only after the battle and not (probably) by killing him, alienating Tywin was necessary to practice blood magic and Tywin would have lived with it without Roberts rebellion, destroying kings landing was just an issue of whether Aerys died now or 15 minutes later.  The only fatal decision was Rickard.

With Cat, once Eddard went south it was war (Little Finger wanted it).  Once Cat siezed Tyrion it was war with Tywin.  Once the deal was made with the Freys her sons life was tied to the deal and Tywin had no trouble playing that.  Once Roose was named general of the foot the possibility of deception existed.  

Oh, and without Roose I don't think Frey could have pulled off the Red wedding and without the Karstarcks I don't think Roose would have been willing to act.

[mormont]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.46, said:

The only two times Cat is disregarded by her ALLIES are about Theon and about naming Jon as heir.  Every other time she is listened to and ultimately agreed with.

Not really true. The really big one is that she never wanted Robb to claim a crown in the first place. Did anybody listen to her on that?

ETA - oh, and there was the issue of trading Jaime for the girls.

Edited by mormont, 26 January 2009 - 09:53 AM.

[Howlin' Howland]

mormont, on Jan 26 2009, 09.51, said:

Not really true. The really big one is that she never wanted Robb to claim a crown in the first place. Did anybody listen to her on that?

Fair enough, although I think the only consequence of this was that there was a queen of whores at Riverrun and uncat had a fun crown to play with when she hanged Brienne.

mormont said:

ETA - oh, and there was the issue of trading Jaime for the girls.

Yea, that one she took into her own hands.  Nice call.  It's kind the whole point of the reason that Robb lost the Karstarks which empowered Roose etc... But yea you are right here too.  But I don't think this is an example of when people SHOULD have listened to Cat.

Edited by Howlin' Howland, 26 January 2009 - 10:00 AM.

[mormont]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.58, said:

Fair enough, although I think the only consequence of this was that there was a queen of whores at Riverrun and uncat had a fun crown to play with when she hanged Brienne.

I think you've missed the scope, for want of a better word, of her objection. It's not like she wanted him to do everything he did anyway, but without the nice iron hat on. Cat was dead against the whole thing. She constantly thinks about how much she wants Robb just to make peace and go home. She tells him this more than once. He doesn't listen.

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Yea, that one she took into her own hands.  Nice call.  It's kind the whole point of the reason that Robb lost the Karstarks which empowered Roose etc... But yea you are right here too.  But I don't think this is an example of when people SHOULD have listened to Cat.

There's an argument to be had there (one of my pet ones, actually, about how people vastly overestimate the value of Jaime as a hostage - and underestimate the value of Sansa), but for now, suffice it to say this is one of the many times that Cat is disregarded - rightly or wrongly.

Edited by mormont, 26 January 2009 - 10:08 AM.

[Smoldering Hound]

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I'm sure the matter of the horrible thing she told Jon was addressed up thread, but I'll say it here just in case it wasn't: GRRM has said that her demeanor and her words at that particular moment were not typical of her behavior. She was under extreme emotional duress, and was not rational. When she's in her right mind, she absolutely regrets that she said it.

The thing is, as many Cat supporters have mentioned, she's never in her right mind. She's continually depressed as tragedy after tragedy occur to her. Over time, one calls people who act like that "drama queens". I'll admit she's better at concealing it than Lysa, she's depressed, she's not nuts, but she's a very judgemental type who is prone to take irreversible action based on unverified information. Like Lysa, she's a trivially controllable piece by anyone actually playing the game of thrones.

[Errant Bard]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 15.46, said:

With Cat, once Eddard went south it was war (Little Finger wanted it).  Once Cat siezed Tyrion it was war with Tywin.  Once the deal was made with the Freys her sons life was tied to the deal and Tywin had no trouble playing that.  Once Roose was named general of the foot the possibility of deception existed.

Ok, I get your meaning. Once Cat gave birth to Robb, the possibility of him fucking up and dying existed, and it happened, therefore it is her fault.

It's not that she is wrong, or that her decisions entail disasters directly, nor that all her decisions are bad, but that she is involved in the disaster of her family and therefore the blame falls squarely on hers.

[iheartseverus]

mormont, on Jan 26 2009, 04.49, said:

If you want a really controversial topic on this board, by the way, try 'Was Robert right to hit Cersei?' or get snake to explain why Tyrion is the worst villain in the series. :P

heh, guess I'll give those two thread topics a pass, then.  (Seriously?  Tyrion the worst villain in the series?)

*wanders off to find a quiet corner*   :smoking:

[Courtaud]

iheartseverus, on Jan 26 2009, 10.01, said:

To SweetRobin, Blauer Dragon and ghost 89, let me say, I wish I had never initiated this thread.  Its just toxic.  I walked away from it way back when once I recognized what it had become.

And did it surprise you? You said that you did read the forum carefully before starting to post, and you didn't know that Catelyn is a lighting rod just like Snape in HP forums?

And why should you apologize to some of the participants in this thread more than to others? Because they happen to agree with you, but they actually went on discussing with the rest of us instead of going away when people with different opinions bagan to show up?

To Howlin' Howland:

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Second, I think Aerys was practicing blood magic and needed to burn someone with kings blood for a spell (Rickard is the only person with kings blood actually burned alive in the series). Without the magic I doubt Dany is able to hatch dragons, it's why I think Aerys is a hero (a sick crazy one) but without him Westeros falls to the Others.

Aeris burned people - not only with king's blood, remember his poor Hand - because he was sexually excited by it.

[Ran]

SH,

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she's never in her right mind

Has someone been foolish enough to make that claim?

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She's continually depressed

Depression does not equal not being in one's right mind. She has cause to be depressed through much of the series, but the only times her rational faculties break down are:

1) Bran's coma (ends when she awakens after having saved his life with Summer)
2) Robb's death

Elsewise, she may be affected by her grief and her fears, but then, one would say the same for Robb and for Eddard and Tywin and basically anyone else who is human.

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Over time, one calls people who act like that "drama queens"

No you don't. A drama queen "makes a fuss about nothing". Catelyn makes a fuss about extremely important things. That's called being conscientious and dutiful. No one calls Davos a "drama queen", for some reason.  

And unlike most drama queens, she doesn't actually get involved in "dramatics" -- her grief is her own. That we're in her head doesn't change the fact that from the outside she was a rather tough, widowed woman who stood by her son and her family through thick and thin.

[Courtaud]

mormont, on Jan 26 2009, 16.07, said:

There's an argument to be had there (one of my pet ones, actually, about how people vastly overestimate the value of Jaime as a hostage - and underestimate the value of Sansa), but for now, suffice it to say this is one of the many times that Cat is disregarded - rightly or wrongly.

Tyrion for one knew that Tywin had given up Jaime; but I don't think Catelyn could guess that. But Sansa was the possible heir to Winterfell - how could anyone underestimate her value as an hostage? ("because she was just a girl", of course.)

[guad]

Courtaud, on Jan 26 2009, 16.20, said:

And did it surprise you? You said that you did read the forum carefully before starting to post, and you didn't know that Catelyn is a lighting rod just like Snape in HP forums?

lol, funny you mention this, because I have been lurking today here and have been thinking exactly the same thing.

Also similarily to what happens with certain characters, like hero!glorious!sexy!Snape for instance, what I seem to see here is a distorted vision of Cat, but the other way around.

For instance blaming her for every single disaster happened in the books (Red Wedding? Hello? It was ROBB'S choice to sleep with sweet Jeyne Westerling, and I wouldn't even blame him. The one to blame for the Red Wedding are the Freys, Tywin and Bolton, period) seems a perception of the books that is, with all my respect to the opinions, distorted.

It's ok to dislike a character, it's ok to say what they did wrong, but what I can't understand is the irrational completally off page arguments I'm seeing here towards Cat. Makes me wonder if we've read the same books, honestly ;)

So apparently heated arguments happen when fans add or rest qualities to characters, which are actually not even onpage. Or when certain flaws/mistakes are either forgiven in excess (I really hope that nobody here on the board thinks that Robert was right to beat Cersei) or exaggerate them (see blaming Cat for everything and the doom of valyria)

And regarding the drama queen, that would be Aerys II :lol: (OMG CONSPIRACY! LET'S BURN THE CITY DOWN!!!111)

mormont said:

And regrettably, in some few cases, this does seem to be linked to a person's attitude to women. (This is a hard conclusion to avoid when you read people saying that they really want to see Cat/Sansa/Dany being raped, because 'it's what they deserve'. Yes, I've seen that comment made about all three, I'm afraid.)

Well, that indeed does say a lot about the people who post something like that. If there are persons (or so) thinking like that, really one can't blame the defenders of female characters to speak their mind.

Edited by guad, 26 January 2009 - 11:48 AM.

[Courtaud]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.42, said:

All of her decisions (unlike most characters) looked like the right call when she made them.

This is a unique set in the series.  at least six reasonable decisions all of which blow up in the characters face.  Hell, I'd be hard pressed to find someone else who made six reasonable decisions.

Cat is cursed.  I don't think she's stupid or bad.  I just want her as far away from me as possibe.

This. But to have her as far away from you as possible you have to put down the books and walk away. Slowly.

You are right. Catelyn is a tragical figure; she is cursed by misfortune and everyone around her is cursed too; but this doesn't make her despicable.

guad, on Jan 26 2009, 17.40, said:

lol, funny you mention this, because I have been lurking today here and have been thinking exactly the same thing.

Also similarily to what happens with certain characters, like hero!glorious!sexy!Snape for instance, what I seem to see here is a distorted vision of Cat, but the other way around.

I happen to like Snape, you know. Not as a glorious and sexy character, but as a brave and positive one. And all the rest is fanfiction.

Beside, the HP fandom is insane. It is known.

[Lady Blackfish]

Drama queens are people who react over-emotionally to situations.  Her reactions are normal, she suffers incredible loss.  Do you realize what you're saying, that depression is an overreaction considering all her losses?  I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding this.  If anything, compared to most people who go through that she underreacts, she's too stoic for her own good (it is harmful to her).

People can't really blame her for stuff that happens to her, can they?  Being frustrated or turned off her POV is one thing, but how do people do that and in the same breath condemn her for being irrational?  Because speaking of irrational ...

Edited by Lady Blackfish, 26 January 2009 - 12:27 PM.

[GRRM Tidings]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 07.09, said:

Every decision that Cat made was reasonable at the time she made it.  But EVERY dicision she made became a disaster.  Not once or twice...half a dozen times.  It's not cause Cat is dumb, its cause she's cursed.  GRRM decided everything Cat touches will go to hell.  It's entirely unfair but it is her record.

This remains to be seen.  

I am predicting that the one act that she is vilified for... namely, releasing Jaime Lannister...will become the pivotal decision that brings Lannister & Stark factions together.  At the very least, it will become a powerful catalyst in the future battle of Ice & Fire.


The coin spins...