178 replies to this topic

[Lady Blackfish]

On the plus side, at least now I know that some people in the world actually say things like "Way to bro down."

[Howlin' Howland]

iheartseverus, on Jan 21 2009, 02.24, said:

Even Robb, when he wants his mother out of Riverrun, whether for her own safety as he claims, or just to get her out of his hair, suggests that she go to The Twins, sit things out with the Freys and help him decide which of the Frey females he should take as bride.  

I love the Starks, but they drive me starkers.

Am I missing something?  These are the decisions Cat made in the series.  

1) Eddard wants to reject Roberts offer for hand of the king, Cat demands he go south.

2) Cat goes south after the failed assassination of Brandon is discovered by LF, meets Eddard with LF and unintentionally made Eddard trust LF.

3) She kidnaps Tyrion starting the war between Lannister and Stark (Making Tywin target Eddard).

4) She recommends that Robb place Roose Bolton in charge of his foot east of the River.

5) She negotiates Robbs marriage contract with E. Freye.

6) She releases Jaime Lannister (alienating the Karstarks)

Am I the only one that sees every decision she makes is a disaster that kills the people she's trying to help.  If I were a Stark I would want nothing more than Cat siding with the Tullys.

And I'm leaving out the whole hangine Brienne thing.

Edited by Howlin' Howland, 26 January 2009 - 04:50 AM.

[mormont]

If you want a really controversial topic on this board, by the way, try 'Was Robert right to hit Cersei?' or get snake to explain why Tyrion is the worst villain in the series. :P

ETA - Howlin' Howland, if you think you're missing something, I think pretty much all of those have been discussed in the thread so far.

Edited by mormont, 26 January 2009 - 04:50 AM.

[Howlin' Howland]

mormont, on Jan 26 2009, 04.49, said:

If you want a really controversial topic on this board, by the way, try 'Was Robert right to hit Cersei?' or get snake to explain why Tyrion is the worst villain in the series. :P

ETA - Howlin' Howland, if you think you're missing something, I think pretty much all of those have been discussed in the thread so far.

It's my twelth post and I'm catching up on 4 years of posts.  But If I want to be controversial I'll explain how I think Aerys saved Westeros when he burned Rickard to death (it's a blood magic thing).

[mormont]

Well, that is certainly a new angle...

[iheartseverus]

Mormont, excellent post, well-reasoned and fair.  Ran, actually I wasn't championing trogodytes, just trying to make the point that 'disagreers' are sometimes well-reasoned as well.  Yikes.

[Red Sun]

Belated contribution to the discussion:

First, I can see that some comments of the Catelyn defense, have been too acid to contribute to a good discussion, but it was only one or two posters, not everyone who is in the pro-Catelyn camp. But it's still far from getting flayed.

Second, I just want to agree to what Mormont and Errant Bard, that there have been multiple hate threads already. I think that hate threads are very silly. Actually, I have stopped to take part in this discussion after my first post, because I have seen so many Hate-Catelyn-posts that I'm tired of the discussions, and I found some of the Catelyn bashers in this thread very offensive as well. I certainly don't think that Catelyn is a flawless character, but I find the wording choices of her detractors very often offensive.

And like - I think - Shewoman asked before I'm really wondering why people react with so much vitriol to Catelyn's side of the story.

Third, just the dislike of the majority doesn't make every other opinion invalid.


Back to the topic: I think one problem with Catelyn's character and duty is that she is always confronted with too many options, and every option is problematic. The other problem is that she is basically Cassandra, as I said before, the narrative punching ball. All her well intented decisions have negative consequences, and all her good advices get ignored.

I also would like to point out that Catelyn was never raised like Sansa, she was raised as her fathers heir for a very long time, then after the death of her mother until her marriage, it was probably also her duty to overview the Tully household. I think that many aspects of Catelyn's character that grate so many people, especially her assertiveness, are consequences of her personal history.

Edited by Red Sun, 26 January 2009 - 08:40 AM.

[iheartseverus]

Mormont, excellent post, well-reasoned and fair.  Ran, actually I wasn't championing trogodytes, just trying to make the point that 'disagreers' are sometimes well-reasoned as well.  Yikes.

[The SmilingKnight]

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Jaquen,
iheartseverus was obviously being satirical by juxtaposing that troglodyte sentiment with a reminder that people who criticize the character of Catelyn are by and large warm, compassionate people with a keen insight into travails of parenthood.

It wasnt really obvious. And i wouldnt agree at those masses of warm compassionate people anyway.

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Get with the program.

:rolleyes:

[Ran]

Jaquen,

I must remember to add emotes ;)

Suffice it to say, I do not in fact believe iheartseverus was being satirical. I do think their example was poorly chosen -- why would anyone want to see people ask "how much would you like to spear Catelyn in the face with a morning star?" Maybe the people wishing rape/abuse/mutilation/murder on Catelyn/Sansa/Dany/Cersei are really compassionate and loving family people, and highly intelligent; but they must have left all that at the door when they think that that's a fine way to carry out a dialogue. First rule of being taken seriously: don't open a conversation with how any female character "deserves" rape, or how characters who are protagonists "deserve" abuse.

Anyways, I fully endorse what mormont and others say. Threads criticizing or attacking Catelyn, like this one, do not get closed. So to claim that people aren't "allowed" to criticize seems to be making an error. You're allowed to criticize all you want, just expect that there'll be people who'll question it and disagree.

[Errant Bard]

Howlin Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 10.48, said:

1) Eddard wants to reject Roberts offer for hand of the king, Cat demands he go south.

Which isn't disastrous, it is the reasonable option, as it makes her daughter the future queen, has her children besides the heir be raised at court and meet children of their rank and age, fulfills the dreams of both Bran and Sansa, allows for Eddard to bring justice to his adoptive father, allows for Eddard to counterbalance the power of the queen, allows Eddard to rein Robert a bit before he ruins the realm.

That Eddard proved inept, that there was someone hell bent on crushing her family, or that the crown prince happened to be both a monster and illegitimate is not her fault at all or anywhere near a direct consequence of her decision. Besides, in the end Eddard decided to go by himself.

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2) Cat goes south after the failed assassination of Brandon is discovered by LF, meets Eddard with LF and unintentionally made Eddard trust LF.

Ned is the one doing the trusting, and not because Catelyn does it. Indeed, Catelyn coming to KL makes Littlefinger actually slip and show that he is lying, only Ned doesn't notice. There isn't any disaster as a direct consequence of this.

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4) She recommends that Robb place Roose Bolton in charge of his foot east of the River.

No, actually. She suggests that a decoy army should have a careful, prudent commander, not a Greatjon, which is sound advice. Robb comes up with Roose Bolton's name. And Roose Bolton was not even a bad choice, he is the main Stark bannerman, with the most soldiers under him anyway, and didn't get crushed by Tywin like a Greatjon would have been (killing Tyrion while at it). That he turned is due to... Robb sending Theon to Pike (against Catelyn's advice), Robb breaking the marriage pact (again, against Catelyn's wishes), Catelyn freeing Jaime, and most of all Stannis getting crushed at battle of Blackwater.

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5) She negotiates Robbs marriage contract with a Frey.

Which permits them to cross and get an army. How is it a disaster? The alternative, as heavily highlighted in the text, is storming the Twins, losing most of the army and be impotent before Tywin afterwards, drowning in the river, or going back to Winterfell.

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And I'm leaving out the whole hangine Brienne thing.

Which was after a better, fairer trial than anyone in the serie gave a suspect, and isn't a disaster by any account for people she's trying to help.


Catelyn undoubtedly made some decisions that were not optimal, in hindsight, but to claim that everything she does results in disaster seems wilfully exaggerated. It seems everything that goes bad is laid at her feet no matter how long the chain of implications is before her participation and after, and no matter how many other causes there may be for the so called "disaster".

Compared to the free passes characters like Robb get, the amount of spite toward her is staggering. Of course, I always was convinced that most "haters" are young males identifying with the young heroes that Robb or Jon are and resenting the "mom" to meddle with them instead of staying in the kitchen.

[Howlin' Howland]

Every decision that Cat made was reasonable at the time she made it.  But EVERY dicision she made became a disaster.  Not once or twice...half a dozen times.  It's not cause Cat is dumb, its cause she's cursed.  GRRM decided everything Cat touches will go to hell.  It's entirely unfair but it is her record.

[Red Sun]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.09, said:

Every decision that Cat made was reasonable at the time she made it.  But EVERY dicision she made became a disaster.  Not once or twice...half a dozen times.  It's not cause Cat is dumb, its cause she's cursed.  GRRM decided everything Cat touches will go to hell.  It's entirely unfair but it is her record.

Yes, that's her tragedy, and it makes re-reading her chapters very painfull for me and  - I guess - frustrating for many other readers. But does it really make her deserving of hatred and vitriol?

Edited by Red Sun, 26 January 2009 - 08:17 AM.

[Howlin' Howland]

Red Sun, on Jan 26 2009, 08.16, said:

Yes, that's her tragedy, and it makes re-reading her chapters very painfull for me and  - I guess - frustrating for many other readers. But does it really make her deserving of hatred and vitriol?

Nope.  But the gist of my origional post was, given my choice I don't want her on my team.  Not cause she's a bad person or a fool, but because people on her team get consistently screwed over.

[Red Sun]

Howlin' Howland, on Jan 26 2009, 14.20, said:

Nope.  But the gist of my origional post was, given my choice I don't want her on my team.  Not cause she's a bad person or a fool, but because people on her team get consistently screwed over.

Or maybe, her team should have given more heed to her good advices, or Robb should just not have taken up that crown. But well, that was another moment when her voice was not heard.

Edited by Red Sun, 26 January 2009 - 08:25 AM.

[Howlin' Howland]

Red Sun, on Jan 26 2009, 08.24, said:

Or maybe, her team should have given more heed to her good advices, or Robb should just not have taken up that crown. But well, that was another moment when her voice was not heard.

Um no,

If Eddard renounces the Handship Robert wouldn't come after him and after Robert is assassinated Eddard could stay north.

If Cat never negotiates a marriage contract with the Freys Robb has to fall back north of the Neck, the Ironmen never invade the North and Robb is still alive.

If Robb places and Umbar in charge of his foot, Tywins plan works and Robb is trapped west of the river seeking passage by ship to the north and is probably still alive.

If Cat doesn't free Jaime the Karstarks stay with Robb and the Red Wedding may not have happened.

Listening to Cat is about the stupidest thing you can do.  Not because she's stupid, but because she is always wrong.

[mormont]

HH: fair enough. But the same applies to Ned, after all: and in the long term, Robb, too - he has some successes along the way, but overall his decisions all turn out to be disastrous, whether it's his fault or not. Then there's Robert, too - every decision a bad 'un! And Jon Arryn, too, and probably more.

Of course, all of these people's choices (including Cat's) had to turn out to be disasters, or there wouldn't be much of a story. ;)

ETA - I'd also contest that any of those decisions were 'wrong', and frankly I think some of your assumptions there are doubtful. Most of those seem to me to result in early death for Robb or similarly bad outcomes.

Edited by mormont, 26 January 2009 - 08:33 AM.

[The SmilingKnight]

Ok Ran, no prob. Satire is sometimes tricky to get in the writing alone.

As to the topic at hand i can just repeat my previous conclusion that people tend to judge Cats choices too much because of their consequences later on, rather then on knowledge availabe to her and conditions she was in at the time.

Howland up there seems to be going down this route again.

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Am I missing something? These are the decisions Cat made in the series.
1) Eddard wants to reject Roberts offer for hand of the king, Cat demands he go south.

And we are supposed to dislike this decision and think she is stupid because....?
Because we know what happened later on and it affected characters we like. Eddard, Arya...whoever. Conveniently forgeting all the roles other characters had to play in each event so we can blame it all on Catelyn.
Doesnt make sense to me, really.

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4) She recommends that Robb place Roose Bolton in charge of his foot east of the River.

or

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5) She negotiates Robbs marriage contract with E. Freye.

Same thing. She was supposed to know what will happen later, obviously.
And because she didnt its all her fault.

While both choices were really reasonable at the time they were made. for logical reasons. Bolton is an able military commander and they needed Freys as allies rather then letting them go to Lannisters.

She does make mistakes, sometimes forced by the situation, such as taking Tyrion hostage and accusing him for an attack on Bran which shows a part of her personality thats less then stellar. She thinks Tyrion is evil/capable of such a thing because he is a dwarf and looks ugly.
But then again all evidence she had was seemingly pointing at him and she didnt know him. And she doubts her reasoning later on.
Another thing is hating Jon a bit too much without any regard what he is really like.

But i wouldnt expect her to be perfect either and im pretty sure if she was made that way there would be a lot of complaints about it and "I hate her because she is so perfect and two dimensional" threads.


-edit-
While i was writing several posts were posted making mine a bit superflous.
still-

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Listening to Cat is about the stupidest thing you can do. Not because she's stupid, but because she is always wrong.

This is just a logic that she is at fault, again. Blamed for all the consequences and deeds of others.

Edited by Jaquen Hgharr, 26 January 2009 - 08:42 AM.

[Ran]

I was going to say the same.

Basically, you don't want to be on the team of any of the Starks. You might as well forfeit if one of those do-gooders lines up with you.

[Howlin' Howland]

mormont, on Jan 26 2009, 08.31, said:

HH: fair enough. But the same applies to Ned, after all: and in the long term, Robb, too - he has some successes along the way, but overall his decisions all turn out to be disastrous, whether it's his fault or not. Then there's Robert, too - every decision a bad 'un! And Jon Arryn, too, and probably more.

Of course, all of these people's choices (including Cat's) had to turn out to be disasters, or there wouldn't be much of a story. ;)

True, but with Eddard and Robb these are character flaws.  They each had obvious options to change course.  With Cat she always seems to be making the right call.  Eddard and Robb die because of unwielding honor and a failure to listen to common sense.  Cat always seems to be making the right call, but in retrospect if you ignore Cat you are MUCH better off.

And no character in the series makes even half the number of bad calls (even Aerys) as Cat (from a 20/20 hindsight perspective).  This can't be an accident.  GRRM cursed her.