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The grand Faceless Men conspiracy theory


Toe

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:excl: NOTE: This version of the theory is superseded by the version here:
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53858-adwd-spoilers-the-grand-faceless-men-conspiracy-theory/

[indent][i]"We bring the gift of death." [/i]
[i]The kindly man[/i][/indent]
[b]The Faceless Men[/b]
We are told that the Faceless Men (FM) originated among the slaves of Valyria. The kindly man implies that they killed their masters which would seem to implicate them in the Doom of Valyria. The dragonlords of Valyria were powerful sorcerers. Marwyn has stated that all Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The slaves lived in horrible fiery mines plagued by dragonlike firewyrms. It seems natural that they would have turned to opposing cold, anti-dragon magic. It is difficult to say if there really exist a "Great Other" god or if there simply is a cold/ice/death magic force somewhat like the Dark Side in Star Wars. My personal opinion is the later but for the purpose of this theory it does not matter. The slaves needed the help of a powerful force to be able to defeat the powerful dragonlord fire sorcerers of Valyria and the opposing force/god is the logical choice.

The FM is a death cult. The gods in their temple seem to be the various local death gods like the Stranger. Arianne has heard that in Qohor followers of the red priests, opponents of the Great Other, had rioted and tried to burn down the Black Goat which the kindly man says is one of the local names of Many-Faced God like the Stranger is in Westeros. The FM see death as a gift and an end to suffering. The kindly man describes the world as a "vale of tears and pain". But if we take this to its logical conclusion, something probably only a very small, select group even among the followers of the Many-Faced God know, then the "gift" should be given to everyone. Again this fits with them using/following the death/ice force. So how can this be achieved? How to kill humanity? The answer is to help their natural allies, the Others, take over the world and exterminate humanity.

This gives a new meaning to the phrase "All men must die".

[b]Dragons and the Wall[/b]
In order the free the Others the FM must bring down the Wall. This is likely no easy task considering the many millennia it has existed. According to the legend of the Night's King even when the Night's Watch seem to have been at least partially controlled by persons friendly to the Others this could apparently not be done. So how to do this? A logical solution would be that magical ice requires magical fire or in other words dragonfire.

This can explain several things. It explains why Valyria never conquered the rich lands of Westeros. They know about the danger. Similarly, it can explain why some group among the maesters may have been trying to kill the dragons. They, as the most learned, probably also had learned about the danger.

There is an interesting interpretation regarding Mance's horn and Euron's horn. The Horn of Winter is supposed to have the ability to bring down the Wall. The horn that Mance found is very similar in appearance to Euron's horn. So yes, the Horn of Winter can bring down the Wall as Mance said. But indirectly, by controlling dragons.

So why did the FM not immediately after the Doom bring some dragons to Wall? Probably because at this time its defenses were at full strength. Even after the Wall has fallen the Others can be defeated as happened as when they tried before the Wall was built. So the FM needed time. Time to weaken the Night's Watch, time to remove knowledge about dragons and how to fight the Others, time to make themselves and the Others stronger.

So they allowed some dragons to be saved and brought to Dragonstone. When the memory of the dangers of dragons has faded they allowed the War of Conquest to take place. That the memory had to fade and be erased can explain why the Targaryens did not attempt a conquest immediately after the Doom.

More time passed with the FM growing stronger and the Night's Watch weaker according to plan. The FM have a business of killing powerful men. We know the FM can use magic. We also know that the lifeforce of the powerful can be used for powerful magic. Perfect combination for the FM. The FM received money and reasons for killing the powerful whose lifeforce they can use for powerful magic. At least in Braavos they also seem to be collecting corpses which could possibly be used for a Wight army.

However, the dragons died before the FM were ready. This may have been due to the maesters or to some naturally occurring cycle in the magical "climate". The FM may have been the ultimate mover behind some of the attempts, like Summerhall, to revive the dragons with some maesters opposing them. Maybe without the groups knowing about one another.

[b]Varys[/b]
The FM with their shapeshifting ability are the perfect spies and infiltrators. It would be preferable if they had a man at the center of power in the small council. Even better would be to know and control the flow of information. In short, Varys is the perfect candidate. Now Varys has told various stories about his background. Some of this information may well be "correct". We know that the FM can take over other persons' appearance, job, and even fool their friends. Like Jaqen H'ghar did with Pate. Maybe this even involves taking over some part of the killed persons' memory. So a FM may have killed Varys and taken over his identity at some stage in his life.

Varys's quarters and lifestyle seem to be extremely ascetic with only water in his flagon and a stone bed. Does not fit with a perfumed fat eunuch, as Tyrion notes, but fits well with a member of a death cult who finds little pleasure in this world. Arya also has a stone bed in Braavos.

Varys probably did use small children to spy. To quote the kindly man, "Why use a spell, where mummer's tricks will serve?" This also likely applies to his disguises. But I think some cases of his disguise as the prison guard Rugen who over a long period was in contact with other guards is hard to explain by natural means and medieval technology. At least when Eddard could feel the Rugen's stubble with his fingers and did not think it a disguise. Yes, Varys said he was a mummer, but mummers at least in traditional plays did not use elaborate disguises but at most stereotypical masks.

Varys has stated that he hates magic. But we know that the FM train very hard to be good liars. Also, when Varys has apparently revealed some personal details it was to Tyrion and Eddard. Persons who would have trusted another person more if this person apparently trusted and revealed personal details. Which apparently worked since both for all their doubts followed Varys's advice until and even after he betrayed them.

While thus everything Varys says, and especially everything regarding himself and his motives, should be viewed as suspect, maybe somewhat more insight can be gained from his general philosophical outlook which seems not incompatible with that of death cult seeing little value in the world:
"You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life." He glanced around the cell. "When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why.""
"The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me . . . why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

Also, there is an interesting double meaning from this statement where peace can be interpreted in several ways. "Your own ends. What ends are those, Lord Varys?" "Peace," Varys replied without hesitation." Another possible ironic double meaning is the reference to the Others riding ice spiders. No trace of such beings have been seen but Varys is sometimes called the Spider.

Varys first appeared in Westeros at a time period relatively close to the time when the FM and the Others would be ready. At this point it seemed likely that Rhaegar would become a very able king which would be a bad choice during the invasion of the Others. So Varys was likely the prime mover behind Robert's Rebellion. He poisoned Aerys's mind and turned what could have been diplomatically resolved into a full scale war which killed Rhaegar.

Secondarily, he also likely inspired Aerys's plan to turn King's Landing and himself into a fire sacrifice. The plan may have been that after the failed Summerhall attempt something really big was needed. Sacrificing the whole city and Aerys and his relatives together with some appropriate use of the dragon eggs Illyrio later gave to Daenerys would be a big enough sacrifice to make the dragons reappear. However, the maester Pycelle and Jaime stopped this. Stannis states that "Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys" and Jaime notes that "He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed."

Weakening especially the North and also their closest neighbor the Riverlands before the invasion of the Others was important and has been achieved. Petyr with his ability and hatred of the Starks was a useful puppet. One may suspect that Petyr rapid advancement and success may not always be solely due to his own ability but also due to influence and information from the FM and Varys. Fitting irony if the man who remarks that some who think they are players are actually pieces is himself another piece. Varys also helped Petyr by increasing Eddard's suspicion of the Lannister in their conversations likely hoping this would in the end escalate to warfare.

Preventing Stannis and especially Melisandre from taking power was also of high priority and successfully achieved through puppets such as Tyrion and Petyr.

However, with this achieved the very effective Tywin had become de facto ruler. In my view Varys had planned to free Tyrion and murder Tywin. That Jaime appeared was a probably not planned or at least not taken for granted but did not change the overall plan. Similarly, Varys may have hoped that Tyrion would kill Tywin but if he had not then Varys would have killed Tywin through some other method and Tyrion would still be blamed. Tyrion strengthening the still relatively weak expedition force of Daenerys before and during a destructive civil war is better than him dead or him strengthening the rule at King's Landing. Regarding himself, the identity of Varys had become somewhat restrictive and a change was in order.

[b]Riddles[/b]
Varys states a riddle to Tyrion regarding a sellsword and three powerful men and who dies. Later he answers the riddle as the philosophical statement that power resides where men believe it resides. But there is more to this riddle. Varys states that the sellsword is "no one". This is of course the exact phrase FM use regarding themselves. Varys here states another solution to the riddle. In this world the FM are the true power. They are the sellsword who decides who dies and can take over identities and powers if they so decide.

Aemon states while very sick that "the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler". This is among references to prophecies and may refer to some as usual cryptic prophetic statement. A sphinx is composed of body parts from different animals and humans. FM can assume many different shapes. They also seem to be fond of making riddles or otherwise obscure statements. So this may be a subtle hint that the identity and the goals of the FM are of central importance.

[b]Daenerys and Euron[/b]
Robert was an improvement upon Rhaegar. Viserys would be even better (worse). So Varys planned to help him return using Illyrio as a proxy. As known from the scene where Arya watches two men under the Red Keep Varys and Illyrio are working together. A civil war which would be extremely destructive when including the pillaging Dothraki would also weaken the realm in time for the invasion of the Others.

He also via Illyrio gave the dragon eggs to Daenerys. Maybe because he planned some new sacrifice. Or maybe the FM had noticed a slowly general increase in the magic level as witnessed by extreme events such as the long summer and the appearance of the Stark wolves. Such a change in the magical "climate" may have been part of a natural cycle or possible caused by the FM themselves if they are using very powerful magic such as to awaken the Others. They may have hoped or at least considered it a possibility that such an increase and extreme events would also be followed by an awakening of dragons. Probably a good idea to keep Targaryens nearby in this case since they seem to have some form of bond with dragons. Which incidentally is probably why the Targaryens practiced incest in order to preserve this ability.

Viserys died but the dragons were reborn. The plan now is likely to use Euron to take one or more dragons away from Daenerys and use it to bring down the Wall at the right time. Victarion thinks that "Every man there knew that the Doom still ruled Valyria. The very sea there boiled and smoked, and the land was overrun with demons. It was said that any sailor who so much as glimpsed the fiery mountains of Valyria rising above the waves would soon die a dreadful death" Euron claims that he found the horn there which at least the Reader (Lord Harlow) seems to think is unlikely. More likely, the FM would have saved powerful artifacts from Valyria so Euron probably received the dragon horn from the FM or a proxy such as the Undying Ones. In return for this, the FM have likely invented some story that at some point involves bringing a dragon to the Wall.

The Undying Ones are probably also using death/ice magic. They are described as "blue and cold" and with "cold hands". Aemon noted that ice preserves so death/ice sorcerers may be able to extend their lives. They seem very vulnerable to fire. Both they and the FM use illusions. So not unlikely another ally or puppet. The FM may have made an initial attempt to control Daenerys and thus the dragons through them. When this failed Euron was called in. That Euron is accompanied by Qarth warlocks is noteworthy.

Daenerys will be very useful if she with or without dragons create further destructive civil wars and confusion before or during the invasions of the Others. Obviously the dragons and also the able Daenerys must all be killed at some point when they are no longer useful and instead become a threat to the Others.

Many of Daenerys's servants were gifts from Illyrio and are probably thus under indirect or direct FM control. It seems likely that the two assassination attempts were planned to fail by Varys. The assassins themselves likely did not know that they should fail this but Jorah and Barristan likely were told their identities and could thus stop the attempts. Thus gaining Daenerys confidence. In the first case also provoking Drogo to plan an invasion.

[b]Arya and Jaqen H'ghar[/b]
The able Lord Commander Mormont should preferable be removed. The attempt with the Wights placed outside the Wall failed. Therefore Varys placed Jaqen H'ghar in the Black cells and arranged for him to be taken by Yoren to the Wall to assassinate Mormont.

Varys also arranged for Gendry to follow Yoren when Gendry was not longer protected from Cersei after Robert's death. Can be explained by magical power in powerful men's blood. So saved for use in future magical rituals. Compare with Edric Storm and Melisandre's sacrifices of the powerful in rituals.

Varys also planned for Ned to be saved and follow Yoren. Possibly for the same reason as for saving Robert's bastards. Another possibility is that the Starks are also connected with Wall which was created by a Stark and its destruction may possibly involve Stark blood or actions. Yet another possibility is that maybe Jaqen H'ghar was supposed to kill and take Ned's identity and then become Lord Commander. Taking Mormont's identity may have been difficult since so many people knew him very well at the Wall. Taking Ned's identity would be relatively easier if his two relatives at the Wall could be removed.

However, Ned and Yoren dies. Jaqen H'ghar after escaping contacts the other FM and learns that the Mormont mission is now unnecessary since he will be killed while ranging. Jaqen also reports of a highborn girl following Yoren who may be FM agent material. She is determined to likely to be Arya Stark. Jaqen is ordered to find her and possibly corrupt her. As could be expected he finds her at Harrenhal.

Jaqen tells a strange tale that the Red God is owed three lives due to three people almost being burned. Jaqen supposedly must follows Arya's orders regarding who to kill. Very strange, does this mean that Jaime could have ordered 500,000 people to be assassinated if he had saved a FM when he stopped King's Landing from burning? Jaqen later swears an oath "By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." and "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it." Again strange, if he was serious a FM would likely explicitly swear by or at least mention the Many-Faced God he worships or the death gods seen and mentioned in his temple. More likely, Jaqen wants to give Arya a taste of the great power the FM have. She promptly orders three gradually more corrupt murders. First a criminal, then a bad but not criminal steward, and at last someone who helped her. Jaqen then shows her still more of the FM powers by showing her his shapeshifting ability. Arya is still not ready to go to Braavos due to her remaining family ties. Jaqen likely knows that the outlook for the Stark family is bleak but due to a new mission he must go. If Arya is FM material she will be able to find her way to Braavos on her own in due time.

Jaqen goes to the Citadel and takes over Pate's identity. Possible reasons include that the FM have learned about a faction of maesters killing dragons, that the Citadel library needs a cleaning of all valuable information about the Others, or simply that a FM is needed to counter whatever response the maesters may make to the invasion of the Others. More ambitiously, he may have been sent there to help Euron's forces take Oldtown. If a FM puppet takes over the Citadel and its maesters then this is good news for the Others.

[b]Qyburn[/b]
At the same night Varys disappeared Qyburn seems to have undergone a dramatic change in personality and ability. Before this the only thing he had managed to achieve was becoming a member of a particularly vile sellsword company. Now he suddenly becomes a major player, a member of small council, seemingly without problem takes over Varys's intelligence network, and can use powerful magic. This suggests that the night Varys disappeared he killed Qyburn and took over his identity. Made easier by the circumstance that not many people were acquainted with Qyburn in King's Landing. An important reason for this change is probably that as the invasion of the Others approaches he needed an identity that could more openly use magic than the Varys identity could.

Varys/Qyburn probably did not oppose Joffrey being killed by the Tyrells. While Joffrey would have been a very nasty king he would likely be so obnoxious to even those close to him that he would quickly be murdered regardless by someone he had offended. More importantly, he was headstrong, impulsive, and difficult to control. In contrast, Qyburn seem to be able to influence Cersei rather easily.

Qyburn and Varys trivialized the information coming from east about Daenerys' dragons in a very similar manner. First they mention a long list of rather uninteresting gossips like that a kraken has been seen off the Fingers and then they slip in some mention that there are also stories of dragons. These stories are then quickly dismissed as small folk fantasies but if information from other sources should arrive then Varys and Qyburn can still claim that they did attempt to inform about the dragons.

Varys was involved in removing Janos Slynt from the City Watch as seen by Tyrion immediately naming Bywater new Commander on Varys's suggestion. He may have suggested to Tyrion to send him to the Wall. Where he would not unlikely become Lord Commander which would be excellent from Varys's view. When Jon becomes Commander Qyburn persuades Cersei to send a hundred men to remove him.

One of the important things happening after Cersei taking power is the rise of the Faith. This is likely Qyburn's doing since the Faith will likely be militantly opposed to help from sorcerers using either fire magic or nature magic (like the Children of the Forest) since such magic is associated with other gods. Cersei at one point recalls that Qyburn has in fact pointed this out regarding Stannis and the Red God. Very useful for the Others.

There is an interesting possible duality. The FM uses illusions. Melisandre claims to be able to recognize true statements when talking to Davos when he is imprisoned. This suggests that fire sorcerers can possible be able to see through FM illusions.

The involvement with the Faith also suggests that the imprisonment of Cersei was not a surprise to Qyburn. Likely this was predicted or planned for a long time which is the reason for building Gregorstein. Qyburn giving Cersei the coin implicating the Tyrells with Tyrion also suggests wanting to increase Lannister-Tyrell tensions. The pliable Cersei is preferable to the Tyrells and their women taking effective power so Qyburn would likely prefer for Cersei to return to power. Maybe now with more concessions given to the Faith and with Cersei now more paranoid and dependent on Qyburn. A possible war between the Tyrells and the Lannisters/Iron Islands as a result from the duel would also be good since it would further weaken the involved parties.

[b]The first Faceless Man[/b]
There is not much information given about him. However, the timeline seems strange. If he was the first he should have lived before the founding of Braavos. But he was also involved in the Doom which seems to have been much later. Arya was told that Braavos existence had been a secret for a century; its location had been hidden thrice that long. This can be resolved if the first Faceless Man is in fact very old. Aemon said that ice preserves as an explanation for his age. If so, then an ice sorcerer may well be able to live for a long time. Can also be compared to the Undying Ones who also seem to be very old. If this is correct, then the first FM may still be alive. Varys/Qyburn may thus be the first Faceless man. If so, then after perhaps close to a millennium of experience and with the ability to change bodies Varys may be the somewhat surprising winner of all best swordsman contests and similar events.

[b]Bloodraven[/b]
If the above is correct then the first FM would likely have made various appearances throughout history in different shapes. One possibility, although very uncertain due to the little information available, is Bloodraven or Brynden Rivers from the time of the Dunk and Egg stories. This because he seems to have had an intelligence network like Varys/Qyburn and possible used magic. He later become Lord Commander of Night's Watch and thus would have learned many useful things regarding the Wall and the Night's Watch itself. There is also something strange regarding the Night's Watch library. Sam can find old inventory lists and descriptions of the daily bowel movements of old Lord Commanders but not a single text regarding the origin of the Others and not much useful information that would not be already be quickly known from fighting them. This suggests that the library has been careful censored of all really useful information regarding the Others. Bloodraven is one candidate.
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[quote name='Artanaro' post='1684397' date='Feb 12 2009, 13.56']Nicely done, Toe. It may take a while for me to get around to reading it, but I do believe you may have surpassed my old unified conspiracy theory on Varys. Your post is about 4000 words, and I believe mine was around 2500.

Artanaro[/quote]
Can we get a link to your theory as well?
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[quote name='sharpe' post='1684413' date='Feb 12 2009, 12.06']Can we get a link to your theory as well?[/quote]

Sadly, it has gone the way of the board. I posted it a couple of years ago, but posts that aren't locked are eventually confined to the abyss. I do believe I have it written down somewhere, but not sure where. In the post I did the analytical fact work for the following conspiracies.

1. Varys sent Mandon Moore after Tyrion. (What is very interesting are the actual motivations for killing Tyrion).

2. Varys was behind Tyrek's kidnapping (but what was more interesting is that Sansa was a main target as well).

3. Varys role with Syrio and Jaqen H'gar.

4. Varys and a missing Aegon.

5. Varys and Lyanna's child.

6. Varys' relationship with Aerys.

I do believe I had a few more, but I don't remember them off hand.

Artanaro
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It is a shame that such a well written idea is not getting any comment from the audience. Varys hating magic should definitely have something to do as it is mentioned couple times, just like his always saying he serves to the realm. He well maybe Qyburn as he is not wth Tyrion. If spider and giant ice spiders beyond wall have anything in common it is funny that he wanted to send Ned to wall.
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Great post Toe. Very well thought out theory indeed.

The only thing I would say is that you seem to undersell Qyburn's pre-King's Landing magical abilities :

[quote name='Toe' post='1684247' date='Feb 13 2009, 00.39'][b]Qyburn[/b]
At the same night Varys disappeared Qyburn seems to have undergone a dramatic change in personality and ability. Before this the only thing he had managed to achieve was becoming a member of a particularly vile sellsword company. Now he suddenly becomes a major player, a member of small council, seemingly without problem takes over Varys's intelligence network, and can use powerful magic.[/quote]

I would argue that Qyburn was more than just a member of a particularly vile sellsword company before his arrival at KL - he was also known as a person with exceptional healing abilities, and he demonstrated this ability when healing Jaime. We also know that he was practising necromancy before KL, and this resulted in his excommunication from the Citadel. So I'm not really convinced that Qyburn just gained his magical abilities "overnight" upon Varys' disappearance. There is evidence that he already had these abilities before. This weakens the argument that Varys is Qyburn to some extent. However, I concede that I cannot conclusively dismiss your Varys=Qyburn theory out of hand based on this evidence.
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Phew, just read all of it.

I gotta say, you had me really convinced up until you suggested Qyburn was actually Varys' new identity. I'm crap at analysis and explaining myself like you are, but it just feels right to me that Qyburn isn't lying about who he is, and that the reason he seems to work with spell-like abilities and knowledge is because of his forbidden studies that got him de-chained. Likewise, I have an easier time believing that either Varys is with Tyrion, following Tyrion, or just straight up fled somewhere unknown, and we'll see him pop up some time later, possibly not until the 6th or 7th book.

The thing with the first Faceless Man still being alive, just because "ice preserves", seems a little over-the-top for Martin's world, even considering all the descriptions of old-school Valyria.

The first 3/4 of your post is very interesting though, and seems like it could realistically happen; though, I hope it's not true, so I can be freshly surprised when I actually read the next 3 books. :smug:
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Great theory. I love the irony behind LF being a pawn all along. I doubt Varys is immortal though, isn't it more likely that the books on the others were simply removed by another faceless man?

Euron and his magicians definately support this theory, as does Jaqen's movments thus far. I hope this is it, even if that does mean you've spoilt it for everyone!
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[quote name='Cowgirl' post='1684463' date='Feb 12 2009, 11.43']Nightflyer? Is that you?[/quote]

I was thinking the EXACT same thing!!!


Meanwhile... My head hurts and my shift ended an hour and 36 minutes ago... I'm going home to get some sleep...
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[quote name='Cowgirl' post='1684463' date='Feb 13 2009, 03.43']Nightflyer? Is that you?[/quote]

No it can't be...Nightflyer is still convinced that Varys is a merling ([url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=28634"]link[/url]). The very notion that Varys=Qyburn would be repugnant to him ;)
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[quote name='Chalky' post='1685221' date='Feb 12 2009, 22.27']isn't it more likely that the books on the others were simply removed by another faceless man?[/quote]
It could indeed be argued that the books should have been removed long before this. Also, Aemon was present at the Wall at the same time as Bloodraven and would have been interested in what happened to the library. Still, Bloodraven has some similarity to Varys/Qyburn so I thought this possibility should be mentioned.
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[quote name='Milk of the Poppy' post='1684992' date='Feb 12 2009, 20.04']I do hope however that none of it is even remotely close to the truth, otherwise GRRM will have to take another few years to come up with a totally different plotline.[/quote]
Taking detective fiction as an example, personally I think it is bad authorship if it impossible to guess the murder before the detective reveals it in the final scene. Given time and effort and enough rereads this should be possible. Sure, the author may always make the murderer a completely random person or give so vague and contradictory hints that a solution is impossible. But I think GRRM is a better author than that. If no one on this forum would suspect the central plot before the last book I would be disappointed. If someone does, then this does not matter to the >99% of the readers of the series who have never read a single post on this forum. I have spent a long time thinking about this and reread the series once with only this theory in mind. So I hope it has some value.

I will point out what I think is a great problem with the theory. There seem to not be much foreshadowing of it in the prophecies and visions. There is the vision of Balon being murdered by a FM and possibly the reference to the sphinx as noted above. But as a rather central plot element, if correct I think there should be more even if very cryptic and concealed.
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[quote name='Paxter' post='1685003' date='Feb 12 2009, 21.13']The only thing I would say is that you seem to undersell Qyburn's pre-King's Landing magical abilities :
I would argue that Qyburn was more than just a member of a particularly vile sellsword company before his arrival at KL - he was also known as a person with exceptional healing abilities, and he demonstrated this ability when healing Jaime. We also know that he was practising necromancy before KL, and this resulted in his excommunication from the Citadel. So I'm not really convinced that Qyburn just gained his magical abilities "overnight" upon Varys' disappearance. There is evidence that he already had these abilities before. This weakens the argument that Varys is Qyburn to some extent. However, I concede that I cannot conclusively dismiss your Varys=Qyburn theory out of hand based on this evidence.[/quote]
Yes, you are correct, Qyburn has studied at the Citadel and at least attempted necromancy before coming to KL. But I would argue that this is what makes him very valuable to a FM since this reputation allows a somewhat more open use of magic. But I think there is a dramatic change. The pre-KL Qyburn with his education and if correct magical ability was an underachiever. Now he is an overachiever. Surely if he can rise this quickly, control an intelligence network, easily influence the powerful, and create extremely powerful warriors, he would have found some better occupation than being a healer for this sellsword company. Maybe in the free cities or in the employment of someone like Roose Bolton even if not openly as a maester.
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[quote name='Toe' post='1685382' date='Feb 13 2009, 18.45']Yes, you are correct, Qyburn has studied at the Citadel and at least attempted necromancy before coming to KL. But I would argue that this is what makes him very valuable to a FM since this reputation allows a somewhat more open use of magic. But I think there is a dramatic change. The pre-KL Qyburn with his education and if correct magical ability was an underachiever. Now he is an overachiever. Surely if he can rise this quickly, control an intelligence network, easily influence the powerful, and create extremely powerful warriors, he would have found some better occupation than being a healer for this sellsword company. Maybe in the free cities or in the employment of someone like Roose Bolton even if not openly as a maester.[/quote]

Like Bronn, Qyburn rose quickly because of [i]opportunity[/i]. It's not that he didn't have the skills beforehand, just that he didn't have an opportunity to use them.

Also, the excommunication from the Citadel may have caused something of a lull in Qyburn's life. Maybe he didn't have the will to pursue his endeavours after being cast out by the Maesters, and so joined the Bloody Mummers instead. When he was once again given an opportunity in KL, maybe he recaptured his ambition.
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[quote]I will point out what I think is a great problem with the theory. There seem to not be much foreshadowing of it in the prophecies and visions. There is the vision of Balon being murdered by a FM and possibly the reference to the sphinx as noted above. But as a rather central plot element, if correct I think there should be more even if very cryptic and concealed.[/quote]

Hey Toemeister. How about this one?

[quote]Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.[/quote]

Totally faceless.
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Also a bunch of the prophecies came from the Undying Ones themselves. Having said that, they do seem to actually be prophetic - I doubt the Red Wedding was a FM plot.

What about the Ass'hai chick who lurks around Dany from time to time. FM ally or rival? I suspect the former. Ass'hai seems to be the opposing force of Faceless Men if we go by Melisandre, and the witch is trying to get Dany (and more importantly the dragons) to go East, away from Westeros.

Maybe the dragons going to Ass'hai would help awaken more dragons there or something. The opposing weapon against the FM's Others.

Mayhaps Euron will steal Drogon and burn down the Wall, then Dany/Tyrion will rock up with the dragon army and save Westeros.

How's that for some badass conspiracy theorisationment.
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