397 replies to this topic

[TrackerNeil]

Bronn Stone, on Mar 1 2009, 11.50, said:

It is pretty hard to continue to cling to the belief of collective Cylon guilt across the models when we are shown this new evidence that the Cylons themselves have a tradition of individual responsibility, individual guilt and individual penalty.

It just goes to show that sometimes you just don't know what you don't know.

This really isn't relevant to the previous discussion of Cylon responsibility for the holocaust on the Twelve Colonies, nor does it change the facts:

Fact: Cylons make decisions based on majority rule.
Fact: Sharon Valerii was the first Cylon ever to vote against her model.
Fact: There is no reason to think that the decision to attack the Twelve Colonies was anything other than a standard Cylon decision; i.e. at least four models voted willingly to undertake it.
Conclusion: Every member of the model that voted for the attack bears moral responsibility.

Perhaps RDM will reveal or retcon something that changes the facts, but as I see it...well, there's not much room for debate.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 02 March 2009 - 10:46 AM.

[Myrddin]

I was really hoping that Boomer was on her way to redemption. It should've been obvious, but I didn't see her real reason for being there was to grab Hera. I didn't get it until she found Athena in the bathroom and then it clicked. Frak...

As for Starbuck, yeah, I think her dad was a Daniel model too. Early on in the episode, I figured that no one else could see the piano player. I forgot when, but I turned to my wife at some point way before the Watchtower duet and said, "Watch. He's a Daniel and Starbuck is half-cylon."

Maybe that's why I missed the reason behind Boomer's manipulation of Tyrol. I was feeling too smug about figuring out Kara's daddy...

For those complaining about wasting time on a character driven episode so close to the end, I admit I was wondering the same thing at about the halfway mark. But the end drove the plot ahead so firmly and further than most plot-driven episodes that it shocked the frak out of me. On of the best episodes, if for nothing else than to show how to do character driven plot well.

I'm both excited and sad to see this show end.

[Myrddin]

Werthead, on Mar 2 2009, 08.11, said:

Hal Duncan goes on (and on and on) about BSG's thematic problems here. Some nice points, but Jesus Christ he needs an editor.

Wow. He just spilled out almost 5k over-written words on something he clearly doesn't care for. I can read that kind of overwritten opinon here on the boards. :) (I can write overwritten opinion here on the boards...)

And he convinced me not to bother with his books, if they are even remotely overwritten like that. Man.

[Ran]

Off topic, but yeah, Duncan has proven his own worst enemy for me. Every time I read something by him, my interest in his work decreases. And it's not like his first novel was particularly verbose or over-written, really. But on his blog, it's just a torrent of verbiage.

[TrackerNeil]

Myrddin, on Mar 2 2009, 11.28, said:

For those complaining about wasting time on a character driven episode so close to the end, I admit I was wondering the same thing at about the halfway mark. But the end drove the plot ahead so firmly and further than most plot-driven episodes that it shocked the frak out of me. On of the best episodes, if for nothing else than to show how to do character driven plot well.

I take a different view. When you're got four episodes remaining and a TON of plot development yet to develop, you shouldn't spend time exclusively on character studies. This episode really told us very little we didn't already know. Kara's got a strange, unexplained connection to the mystery song of the Five. So what? We already know she has a strange, unexplained connection to the story at large (see Kara Finds Her Own Corpse), so it's no stretch to accept that the connection is just a little stranger.

As to that 5K screed...wow. For a guy who dislikes BSG, he sure spends alot of time thinking (and writing) about it. However, he does have a point about Lee, who up until Season 4.5 was willing to throw everything away to defend truth, justice and the Colonial Way, and then decides to throw in with an admiral who openly breaks the law and disregards the civilian government at will. I mean, Lee gave away his career, the friendship of the president, his relationship with his father and his wife in order to defend the worst Cylon collaborator of all time, but he won't even break his silence when the very body he was elected to serve is ignored by the military. That's odd.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 02 March 2009 - 12:11 PM.

[Xanrn]

Well taking Hera is a rather obivious way to force a confrontation, between the BSG+Rebels and Cavil.

So I would hazard a guess the ending of the TV series is final victory and the TV movie is them finding a Planet.

Though I do predict once again Lee will become Apollo, a very Tyrion like character, doesn't particular want to be his Father's Son, but everytime push comes to shove, he resorts to the Warrior. He tries to be the Politician but the fact is he is the Soldier.

[kalbear]

This was an episode that made me remember why I loved BSG so much early on. Brilliant acting by Katie Sackhoff, great tension and pacing, and really nice directing. I loved the beginning with Starbuck in the shower, in her mess, reciting what she was going to say and how she was going to say it. The piano touch was great, as was the reveal. When they started mentioning her dad and playing any music I figured that she was a cylon kid and Daniel was her dad (music is overused as a cue for cylonity now), but it made the reveal from Tigh's perspective no less awesome.

But Galen and Boomer's part was utter brilliance. She uses him and fucks him over AGAIN. She ends up fucking the BSG again directly because of him. Her revenge on Athena and Helo was awesome - as was Athena's reaction. Her being pissed off at Helo for not knowing it was her, letting Hera go, all of it - just a great setup.

And all through it, signs that BSG is falling apart, the creaks and groans that are leading up to its death...just great.

No, it didn't have the big budget explosions, but it gave us a reasonable answer to who Starbuck is and why she's so special and in a way that didn't hit us with giant hammers of doom - and was set up from before. It even sets up the final part: that there is another resurrection hub that can resurrect ANY cylon technology. How much is Cavil going to want that? Will he sacrifice Hera to find out where it is? Will BSG trade that knowledge for Hera or for a home?

Just an awesome character piece. All it needed was more Baltar.

[Shryke]

mcbigski, on Mar 2 2009, 10.45, said:

I'm pretty sure retracting the flight pods is part of the pre-jump prep.  I seem to remember Starbuck and Apollo crashing onto the flight deck as the pods were getting pulled in at the end of the final battle in the miniseries.  It just hasn't been a plot point since then, except for maybe the escape from New Caprica. I think when they jumped into the atmosphere, the flight pods were retracted, but apparently the vipers can still launch in that configuration.

Yeah, it was shown in the mini-series. The pods retract before they jump.

Vipers launch sideways from the flight pods and can do so at any time, but they can only land if the pods are out.

Quote

However, he does have a point about Lee, who up until Season 4.5 was willing to throw everything away to defend truth, justice and the Colonial Way, and then decides to throw in with an admiral who openly breaks the law and disregards the civilian government at will. I mean, Lee gave away his career, the friendship of the president, his relationship with his father and his wife in order to defend the worst Cylon collaborator of all time, but he won't even break his silence when the very body he was elected to serve is ignored by the military. That's odd.

Uh, when did this happen? The Quorum was AGAINST the Mutiny remember?

[Werthead]

Yeah, you see the flight pods retract and then extend again during every jump (apart from one scene in Season 1 where they forgot about them).

I remember notable shots of them retracting are when the sun is going supernova in Rapture and during the New Caprica jump, when the pods stay retracted during atmospheric entry (but the Vipers can indeed still launch). In fact, I think during an interview one of the writers said that was why Galactica had to do the mission, because Pegasus' flight pods don't retract she wasn't aerodynamically suitable for the drop.

[Guy Kilmore]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 2 2009, 11.10, said:

As to that 5K screed...wow. For a guy who dislikes BSG, he sure spends alot of time thinking (and writing) about it. However, he does have a point about Lee, who up until Season 4.5 was willing to throw everything away to defend truth, justice and the Colonial Way, and then decides to throw in with an admiral who openly breaks the law and disregards the civilian government at will. I mean, Lee gave away his career, the friendship of the president, his relationship with his father and his wife in order to defend the worst Cylon collaborator of all time, but he won't even break his silence when the very body he was elected to serve is ignored by the military. That's odd.

There is a couple pivotal events that occured between those two actions by Lee, the discovery of Earth and the Suicide of Dee.  Lee is just as damaged in spirit as everyone else.  I would also say that Lee has acknowledged that the society and laws he defended do not really exist in the same way as they did now.

Lee pre-Earth was focused on holding together the traditions of the colonies, now after Earth's destruction he is seeking to define who this group is.  He is looking at redefining the system, he made a start by re-aligning representation in government.  This change strikes me as both natural and good.  The only slight is they are not giving much screen time to show this.  I would say that the only thing that they tossed in there to show Lee's reactions to the events about him is his reaction to Dee's Suicide and his comment to Saul that Gaeta has a point.

[Werthead]

Xanrn, on Mar 2 2009, 17.22, said:

So I would hazard a guess the ending of the TV series is final victory and the TV movie is them finding a Planet.

The TV movie is set during Seasons 1-2 and shows events there from the Cylon perspective.

Apparently the way the series is ends is 'not compatible' with the story continuing, although Tricia Helfer has said you could probably do something else set a few years later but it would be a radically different show.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Mar 2 2009, 12.49, said:

Uh, when did this happen? The Quorum was AGAINST the Mutiny remember?

It happened when the Quorum enacted a law that forbade the installation of any Cylon technology on a civilian ship without the consent of that ship's captain. Adama, when confronted by this, simply shrugged and sent in the marines, and Lee didn't even make a peep.

[EHK for Darwin]

Well, Hal's article wasn't great but he did link to a pretty damned good one within there.
http://wrongquestion...battlestar.html

Quote

As Battlestar Galactica's ending draws near, I've found myself thinking about the show as a whole, trying to articulate to myself the core reasons why it went wrong. I think a major contributor has been the issue of focus: the writers' tendency to take their story to places it doesn't want to go, because their interest lies in topics that aren't supported by their worldbuilding or the simple facts of human nature.

The problem, however, with trying to denounce anti-Cylon sentiment as mere prejudice, is that when it comes to Cylons a blanket prejudice might very well be the only correct and moral response. There was a twisted sort of sense in Helo focusing on Sharon's race rather than her individual guilt back at the end of the first season, because at the time we were still thinking in human terms. To accuse Sharon of genocide made as much sense as holding a single Wehrmacht soldier responsible for the Final Solution. In the intervening two and a half seasons, however, we've learned that there's no such thing as a Cylon non-combatant or even a foot soldier. Their decisions, we've seen, are made en masse, with each model voting unanimously (Caprica breaking with the other sixes on the question of whether to nuke New Caprica was unprecedented and shocking). Unless the writers make a last minute revelation that the eights opposed the decision to attack the colonies, there's no other conclusion to draw but that when polled, Sharon said that yes, billions upon billions of dead humans sounded to her like a good start.

The writers of Battlestar Galactica have never tried to depict this tragedy because, once again, they're not interested in going where their premise demands that they go[6], and because they won't acknowledge the magnitude of what the Cylons destroyed and the justness of the rage humans should feel towards them, much less the complicity of every single Cylon in this crime, they get to pretend that the choice between granting the Cylons Colonial citizenship and a more dangerous, more uncertain future has an obvious right answer.

A good read, give it a look.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 2 2009, 13.54, said:

It happened when the Quorum enacted a law that forbade the installation of any Cylon technology on a civilian ship without the consent of that ship's captain. Adama, when confronted by this, simply shrugged and sent in the marines, and Lee didn't even make a peep.

Adama declared it a military matter. Lee agreed.

Edited by Shryke, 02 March 2009 - 03:18 PM.

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Mar 2 2009, 14.15, said:

Adama declared it a military matter.

You act as if this should matter to the legitimately elected government that he just told to 'fuck off'. Because arbitrarily declaring 'Military!' is pretty much the equivalent of telling the government to fuck off. This is made worse by the fact that even Adama didn't think it was a military decision at first, since they sent this matter to the Quorum back when he thought they might side with him. When they had the audacity to contradict his will, than it suddenly became a military matter. He's saying about as transparently as possible that "Civilian Government is fine, so long as it doesn't dare disagree with me"

And Lee did not agree, as he was the one (if I recall correctly) who pushed for it to go to the Quorum. Face it, Lee compromised his own irritating self-righteousness when it was convenient to the plot.

Edited by EHK for a True GOP, 02 March 2009 - 03:24 PM.

[Shryke]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 2 2009, 15.23, said:

You act as if this should matter to the legitimately elected government that he just told to 'fuck off'. Because arbitrarily declaring 'Military!' is pretty much the equivalent of telling the government to fuck off. This is made worse by the fact that even Adama didn't think it was a military decision at first, since they sent this matter to the Quorum back when he thought they might side with him. When they had the audacity to contradict his will, than it suddenly became a military matter. He's saying about as transparently as possible that "Civilian Government is fine, so long as it doesn't dare disagree with me"

And Lee did not agree, as he was the one (if I recall correctly) who pushed for it to go to the Quorum. Face it, Lee compromised his own irritating self-righteousness when it was convenient to the plot.

Lee wanted to go to the Quorum because he, legitimately, felt that it would go MUCH easier if they had the cooperation of the ship captains. He never spoke out against the plan, just the execution of the plan.

Face it, your making shit up to try and create plotholes and inconsistencies.

[Shryke]

Also, your link is more "Blah Blah Blah They shouldn't forgive the Cylons".

The truth is, Adama and Roslin aren't exactly keen on it either. The pro-intergration side aren't Cylon lovers and they don't seem all that keen on forgiving the Cylons for what they've done, they're simply people who feel that, in the end, Cylosn and Humans NEED each other to survive.

And their right. The Colonials and the Cylons have been pushed (by the Cylons funnily enough) into a position where they need each other to survive.

Edited by Shryke, 02 March 2009 - 03:33 PM.

[Ran]

I think Shryke has the right of it. Adama and Roslin are acting like grown-ups. They don't forgive, but they know that "justice" is counter-productive. It's a bad business all around, but if it's the choice between the humans grabbing the Cylons around the throats and dragging them to a sorry end with them, or humans grabbing hold of the Cylons and bringing them both to be able to propagate, the latter is infinitely preferable.

One must make compromises when the survival of the species is on the line.

[Shryke]

Hell, you can see it in the "Ellen's Bitchiness Murders Babies" episode. At the end, they realise that the integration of the 2 societies has already begun, and the looks on their face is one of "Ugh, I hate this". But at the same time, they think it's for the best.

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Mar 2 2009, 14.32, said:

Also, your link is more "Blah Blah Blah They shouldn't forgive the Cylons".

Its a hell of alot more than that. It is further argument of what I've been saying all along, that the direction they're trying to take the series and the supposed moral dilemma's they insist on raising are simply not supported by the context they've created. I don't really see any room to dissent from this point. When it comes down to it, the Cylons committed genocide. They voted on it and at least 4 of the models (5 if you believe Cavil voting against it, since we now know he was its prime engineer) are 100% complicit in it. Any attempts to paint colonial objections to the Cylons as mere prejudice, which happens all the fucking time in the show, are simply ludicrous.

Quote

Lee wanted to go to the Quorum because he, legitimately, felt that it would go MUCH easier if they had the cooperation of the ship captains. He never spoke out against the plan, just the execution of the plan.

Face it, your making shit up to try and create plotholes and inconsistencies.

The 'Lee' that the writers established over the last few seasons would have spoken out against the plan (or more specifically, the ignoring of the government and use of force to implement the plan) once it became clear that the legitimate civilian government unanimously (himself excepted) ruled against it. But that wasn't convenient for the plot, so they inserted yet another character inconsistency to serve that.