397 replies to this topic

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 3 2009, 15.00, said:

Who cares? The Quorum appropriately enacted a law that Adama is legally required to respect. You can't get around that, and I don't know why you're trying.

Movement of the Fleet is a military matter.

And I'm just pointing out to you that your assertion that they "rejected the plan" is wrong because they enacted the law first and only later realised why Zarek had brought it up.

Edited by Shryke, 03 March 2009 - 03:16 PM.

[Blue Roses]

Just been mouching on the Empire film site and watched the new Terminator Salvation trailer (sorry can't link at the moment) and yep, as Empire says it looks like the film has regenerated the whole BSG human/cylon conflict into its plot. (help me obi wan robot/cyborg/human type thing, you're our only hope for the human race......dooby doo).

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Mar 3 2009, 15.14, said:

Movement of the Fleet is a military matter.

If you find the previous BSG thread, you can examine the half-dozen examples I cited to Bronn Stone detailing that President Roslin, and by implication the civilian government and the Quorum, is the ultimate authority over all matters, military or otherwise. Roslin promotes Adama to admiral, Roslin authorizes the use of a biological weapon, Baltar orders Adama to set course for New Caprica...all these are military decisions, or involve movement of the fleet, and civilian authorities made 'em. That's fact. You don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 4 2009, 11.54, said:

If you find the previous BSG thread, you can examine the half-dozen examples I cited to Bronn Stone detailing that President Roslin, and by implication the civilian government and the Quorum, is the ultimate authority over all matters, military or otherwise. Roslin promotes Adama to admiral, Roslin authorizes the use of a biological weapon, Baltar orders Adama to set course for New Caprica...all these are military decisions, or involve movement of the fleet, and civilian authorities made 'em. That's fact. You don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.

Your arguments still suck, just like they did back then.

1) Roslin promotes Adama to admiral: This was basically her ensuring a Caine situation didn't come up again. Adama can't really promote himself and probably never even thought of the idea anyway.

2) Roslin authorizes the use of a biological weapon: Adama didn't want to use them in the first place. He put the decision on Roslin to keep himself from having to make it.

3) Baltar orders Adama to set course for New Caprica: Not a military matter. Baltar decided where the civlians were gonna live, Adama's job is to ensure their safety.

With the jump drive thing, Roslin has decided they are looking for a new planet to settle. Adama's job is to ensure the safety while they do that. Better jump drives is part of this job.

All of this, however, is irrelevant to whatever point you were trying to make before you got all crazy about this point again for no reason.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 12.21, said:

Your arguments still suck, just like they did back then.

1) Roslin promotes Adama to admiral: This was basically her ensuring a Caine situation didn't come up again. Adama can't really promote himself and probably never even thought of the idea anyway.

2) Roslin authorizes the use of a biological weapon: Adama didn't want to use them in the first place. He put the decision on Roslin to keep himself from having to make it.

3) Baltar orders Adama to set course for New Caprica: Not a military matter. Baltar decided where the civlians were gonna live, Adama's job is to ensure their safety.

With the jump drive thing, Roslin has decided they are looking for a new planet to settle. Adama's job is to ensure the safety while they do that. Better jump drives is part of this job.

All of this, however, is irrelevant to whatever point you were trying to make before you got all crazy about this point again for no reason.

Although I agree that Adama follows orders only when it suits him, it's pretty clear that Roslin, as president, is in charge of all Colonial matters. Shryke, one of the points of the story arc from the end of Season One into Season Two was the struggle for supremacy between Roslin and Adama. The bargain they made in the miniseries, which I always knew wouldn't work, was put to the test, and Roslin emerged victorious. You may think my argument sucks, but since you haven't really proved me wrong, perhaps you should wonder if your refutation sucks worse.

Edited by TrackerNeil, 04 March 2009 - 12:25 PM.

[Shryke]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 4 2009, 12.25, said:

Although I agree that Adama follows orders only when it suits him, it's pretty clear that Roslin, as president, is in charge of all Colonial matters. Shryke, one of the points of the story arc from the end of Season One into Season Two was the struggle for supremacy between Roslin and Adama. The bargain they made in the miniseries, which I always knew wouldn't work, was put to the test, and Roslin emerged victorious. You may think my argument sucks, but since you haven't really proved me wrong, perhaps you should wonder if your refutation sucks worse.

When did this happen?

And seriously, WTF is your point again? Why do you keep bringing this shit up?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 4 2009, 12.25, said:

Although I agree that Adama follows orders only when it suits him, it's pretty clear that Roslin, as president, is in charge of all Colonial matters. Shryke, one of the points of the story arc from the end of Season One into Season Two was the struggle for supremacy between Roslin and Adama. The bargain they made in the miniseries, which I always knew wouldn't work, was put to the test, and Roslin emerged victorious. You may think my argument sucks, but since you haven't really proved me wrong, perhaps you should wonder if your refutation sucks worse.

Why do you bother with Shryke in this thread? He is in the business of playing apologetics for tyrants. If Adama went around killing all the human children of the fleet with a baseball bat, Shryke would still go about justifying the appropriateness of Adama's actions and his military jurisdiction to do so.

[Shryke]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 4 2009, 12.42, said:

Why do you bother with Shryke in this thread? He is in the business of playing apologetics for tyrants. If Adama went around killing all the human children of the fleet with a baseball bat, Shryke would still go about justifying the appropriateness of Adama's actions and his military jurisdiction to do so.

What are you, a Freshman in Poli Sci?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 12.59, said:

What are you, a Freshman in Poli Sci?

What is this even supposed to mean? Insult me with all the juvenile remarks you like, but it does not change the fact that you have done little else but justify, defend, and apologize for Adama's military dictatorship throughout this entire thread.

[TrackerNeil]

Shryke, Adama essentially submits to Roslin's rule when he forgives her for prompting Kara's desertion and for splitting the fleet. He makes this public when praises her before the assembly (at the end of "Home, Part 2"), and he says it privately on Kobol when he tells Roslin that she is responsible for their survival. His approximate words, if I recall correctly, are, "Every day is a gift from you." Adama doesn't follow laws; he follows leaders he respects, and in that episode he admits his respect for Roslin. That's why he finally recognizes her supremacy as President of the Twelve Colonies.

However, Matrim's advice is well taken. Unless you have some positive evidence that post-second-season Adama is Roslin's equal in authority, I'm kinda done with this topic.

[Shryke]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 4 2009, 13.38, said:

What is this even supposed to mean? Insult me with all the juvenile remarks you like, but it does not change the fact that you have done little else but justify, defend, and apologize for Adama's military dictatorship throughout this entire thread.

What the hell are you even talking about?

Pst, here's a hint for you: IT'S A SHOW,  IT'S NOT REAL!

Who's talking about the morality of these peoples actions? We're talking about whether it makes sense for the characters to act the way they do.

This all started because someone said Lee should have opposed the Jump Drive Upgrade. Given past actions, it makes perfect sense for him to see this as a military matter that's at the discretion of Adama.

And even if he doesn't, the government has shown itself to make broad decisions for the safety of the human race (like outlawing aborting). So this isn't exactly out of line.

[Werthead]

Put a more detailed version of the 'Story So Far' thing. I think that covers all the bases.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 14.35, said:

What the hell are you even talking about?

A jab as to the nature of your character in this thread.

Quote

Pst, here's a hint for you: IT'S A SHOW,  IT'S NOT REAL!

No shit, Sherlock. What is your point?

Quote

Who's talking about the morality of these peoples actions? We're talking about whether it makes sense for the characters to act the way they do.

This all started because someone said Lee should have opposed the Jump Drive Upgrade. Given past actions, it makes perfect sense for him to see this as a military matter that's at the discretion of Adama.

And even if he doesn't, the government has shown itself to make broad decisions for the safety of the human race (like outlawing aborting). So this isn't exactly out of line.

I am not talking about the morality of their actions, though that does play part in what they do, but on the legitimacy of their behavior and their actions based upon the fictional political contexts of the imagined world of the series.

[Werthead]

Can people just calm down please? It's not even a major argument really worth getting worked up about.

[Shryke]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 4 2009, 16.17, said:

I am not talking about the morality of their actions, though that does play part in what they do, but on the legitimacy of their behavior and their actions based upon the fictional political contexts of the imagined world of the series.

Then do it with someone else who's actually talking about the same shit.

You seem intent on equating the legitimacy of character's choices within the show with what people think are legitimate choices in real life. Which is just stupid.

Edited by Shryke, 04 March 2009 - 04:59 PM.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 16.57, said:

Then do it with someone else who's actually talking about the same shit.

Are you or are you not talking about the appropriateness of actions taken based upon whether or not they fall within military versus civilian jurisdiction?

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 16.57, said:

You seem intent on equating the legitimacy of character's choices within the show with what people think are legitimate choices in real life. Which is just stupid.

You should be careful with how you throw around your assumptions.

Edited by Matrim Fox Cauthon, 04 March 2009 - 05:02 PM.

[Bronn Stone]

TrackerNeil, on Mar 4 2009, 08.54, said:

If you find the previous BSG thread, you can examine the half-dozen examples I cited to Bronn Stone detailing that President Roslin, and by implication the civilian government and the Quorum, is the ultimate authority over all matters, military or otherwise. Roslin promotes Adama to admiral, Roslin authorizes the use of a biological weapon, Baltar orders Adama to set course for New Caprica...all these are military decisions, or involve movement of the fleet, and civilian authorities made 'em. That's fact. You don't have a leg to stand on in this debate.

Actually, even if you accept the arguments you made back then (and I assuredly didn't and don't), all of that is superseded by current events.  Lee quite accurately points out that it is farcical to pretend that the governments and laws of the Twelve Colonies can effectively govern a refugee fleet under intermittent hostile fire.  Adama's efforts to maintain the rule of law were rightly and justly limited in scope.  Things possible on a planet or in a nation are impossible in a refugee fleet.

The time has come for a new Constitution, and that appears to be what Lee is forming.  It will have to reflect the reality that some decisions just have to be made by the generals/admirals during a time of war - especially during a war where there is no such thing as 'behind the front lines'.

Edited by Bronn Stone, 04 March 2009 - 05:46 PM.

[Shryke]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 4 2009, 17.00, said:

Are you or are you not talking about the appropriateness of actions taken based upon whether or not they fall within military versus civilian jurisdiction?

Within the context of the situation in the TV show and what we know about the characters in question.

Quote

You should be careful with how you throw around your assumptions.

:lol: Pot, kettle, have you met?

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Shryke, on Mar 4 2009, 17.22, said:

Within the context of the situation in the TV show and what we know about the characters in question.

Yes.

Quote

:lol: Pot, kettle, have you met?

"I am afraid you have me confused for someone else. There is no Mr. Pot nor Mr. Kettle here."

[Arakasi]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 4 2009, 11.42, said:

Why do you bother with Shryke in this thread? He is in the business of playing apologetics for tyrants. If Adama went around killing all the human children of the fleet with a baseball bat, Shryke would still go about justifying the appropriateness of Adama's actions and his military jurisdiction to do so.

I find it funny that irregardless of thread, Shryke is a fanboy through and through. (both here and in the Bakker threads) And I thought I had it bad with Erikson. :P