397 replies to this topic

[EHK for Darwin]

So...considering we just had a mutiny over Cylon warp drives, why wasn't there any unrest over Adama leading a suicide mission loaded with indispensable military (and I'm sure some civilian) personnel to save a single cylon half breed? Maybe I'm on crack here, but this sort of strikes me as a waste of a shitload of essential resources. I can buy Adama being convinced its necessary, its within his character to buy prophetic gibberish even though he constantly claims otherwise.

But what about the other few thousand people on Galactica who didn't hear Ander's amazingly profound answer? (so profound they didn't show it to us lest we might conclude that its not convincing enough) Or the ones who haven't been privy to all the inside history/prophecy of humans and cylons being doomed to slaughter eachother until they blend the species, thereby making Hera's rescue the single most important thing right now. Or those who are privy, but possessing a healthy dose of skepticism and reality, don't buy that hokey mystical prophecy bullshit?

Yeah you can say they volunteered, but this is a fleet that banned the personal choice of abortion for the 'good of the species'. They're more than willing to set aside personal freedom to serve the common interests. And keeping about half the skilled pilots, mechanics, marines, commanders, engineers, etc alive and away from pointless suicide missions to rescue a single kid just strikes me as being in the species's interests.

It'd be one thing if they actually tried to sell this horseshit, but they didn't. They spent all that time on Lee hitting birds with brooms and Kara playing piano. Instead Adama put on his gruff, gravely voice and everyone went along with it. Not a single note of disapproval. Not a single objection voiced. I find this all a tad ridiculous.

[Brude]

Werthead, on Mar 14 2009, 05.14, said:

One thing that is lame: are they really going with the explanation given in the mini-series novelization that Baltar was so embarrassed at forgetting Six's cover name he never asked her about it again in the following two years?

I honestly find that very amusing - but that's for 2 years on Caprica?  A bit hard to believe maybe - there are ways, like he could just check her wallet while she's asleep after they have sex one night.

Maybe her name was Mulva...or Gipple.

[Werthead]

I see two choices:

1) Adama also sold this as an attempt to destroy Team Cavil once and for all. Take out the Colony and as many of his basestars as possible and remove the threat of Cavil pursuing them relentlessly for the rest of time, and give them a chance to find somewhere else to live.

2) Adama plugged Leoben's Blinking Tech Box into Anders, which instantly and immediately gave him all the answers he needed to carry out the mission. Once the crew and populace learned that the BTB had been deployed, they knew the mission was in safe hands.

Edited by Werthead, 14 March 2009 - 01:38 PM.

[Mack Kilimaro]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 14 2009, 13.04, said:

It'd be one thing if they actually tried to sell this horseshit, but they didn't. They spent all that time on Lee hitting birds with brooms and Kara playing piano. Instead Adama put on his gruff, gravely voice and everyone went along with it. Not a single note of disapproval. Not a single objection voiced. I find this all a tad ridiculous.

I wouldn't say "everyone" went along with it. That deck was packed equally on each side before Adama made his "red line" comment, and I'd say there were 2-3 times as many people on the "stay behind" side as there were on the "volunteer" side. I thought that was pretty well done. Wasn't a lot of bullshit, just people making their choice. Sure, the only real people we care about who are staying behind are Baltar and Co. and Cottle (and him only because Adama made him), but from a numbers standpoint, that was clearly the larger group.

[Edward the Great]

And the majority don't object to the loss of resources and lives?  

BSG has the potential to go down as a landmark in how to do a terrible job of ending a story.

[Werthead]

The more I think about it, the more disappointed I am that Adama didn't sell the military value of the mission (on-screen anyway, we can fanwank that he did offscreen).

Galactica and Pegasus have destroyed what, about a dozen basestars since the show began? The Cylons didn't have that many basestars to begin with (since they needed the computer virus to shut down the Colonial fleet, presumably as they didn't have enough firepower to take down the Colonial battlestars in a stand-up fight, even with a sneak attack), maybe 100 tops? Recent revelations about the Final Five and the Cylons suggest their resources, although considerable, are not infinite. If the Colony also serves as the Cylons' basestar construction platform - the only plausible requirement for its insane size - then destroying it becomes militarily desirable, and doing so now becomes a priority whilst Galactica is still capable of fighting and is ultimately expendable in that fight (they don't need an exit strategy for the ship, and the Raptors and Heavy Raiders can jump out by themselves; interesting to see if they take Vipers along, as they will need to be extracted by a mothership).

[EHK for Darwin]

Mack Kilimaro, on Mar 14 2009, 12.54, said:

I wouldn't say "everyone" went along with it. That deck was packed equally on each side before Adama made his "red line" comment, and I'd say there were 2-3 times as many people on the "stay behind" side as there were on the "volunteer" side. I thought that was pretty well done. Wasn't a lot of bullshit, just people making their choice. Sure, the only real people we care about who are staying behind are Baltar and Co. and Cottle (and him only because Adama made him), but from a numbers standpoint, that was clearly the larger group.

Kind of missed the thrust of the criticism. I'm not talking about people choosing or not choosing to personally go on the suicide mission. I'm talking about noone raising an objection to taking a third of Galactica off on a suicide mission to rescue one individual in the first place. Noone bitched. Noone objected. Noone said 'What the fuck are you thinking you psychotic old man?' Personally I find this to be more extreme than Cylon jump drives and if people were willing to mutiny over that, there should be some dissension from this. Choosing not to volunteer is not real dissent. There should have been some objections to any mission at all that would effectively (likely) kill so many essential members of humanity. By actually taking Adama up on his 'cross the line' bullshit in the first place, no matter which side they walked to, they essentially did 'go along with it'.

They could have sold the military necessity of this. Its not like they didn't have any filler the last several episodes that they could have devoted to making the case on screen. They chose not to. And really, the whole show and the whole finale suffers because of it. This is Heroes level ridiculous.

Edited by EHK for a True GOP, 14 March 2009 - 02:22 PM.

[Rumarumo]

OK, so my eyes attempts to dodge spoilers left and right aside, I have a question, if ye don't mind:

I've heard a lot about how good this show is, but I've also heard the first 2 seasons are meh. Would I be missing out on a lot of important stuff plot wise if I just started mid-series?

[Jon AS]

Yerman said:

I've heard a lot about how good this show is, but I've also heard the first 2 seasons are meh.

Whoever told you that was speaking filthy lies. The miniseries and first two seasons were the high point of the show, it went downhill a lot in season 3 and only recovered somewhat in season 4. The next episode aired will be the final one, so I suggest not "jumping in" with that, in any case.;)

[EHK for Darwin]

Yerman, on Mar 14 2009, 14.23, said:

OK, so my eyes attempts to dodge spoilers left and right aside, I have a question, if ye don't mind:

I've heard a lot about how good this show is, but I've also heard the first 2 seasons are meh. Would I be missing out on a lot of important stuff plot wise if I just started mid-series?

For about the first season and a half it was in the running for best sci-fi show ever. From the halfway point of season 2 they started adding a couple awful filler episodes. Season 3 was loaded with awful plotlines, rampant character stupidity, and its share of meandering. Both season 3 and 4 suffered from a lack of clear direction, very little internal inconsistency, and some weak writing. 4 still was an improvement over 3. And season 5 has been more good than bad.

Even during its weakest seasons there were moments of brilliance. Some really strong episodes or storylines. But it hasn't been consistently great since its early seasons. It is a show worth watching on the whole but there are some stretches that will try your patience.

[Edward the Great]

Yerman, on Mar 14 2009, 14.23, said:

I've heard a lot about how good this show is, but I've also heard the first 2 seasons are meh. Would I be missing out on a lot of important stuff plot wise if I just started mid-series?

The fried you've been talking to is a complete moron.  In the beginning it was a story of how everything goes wrong and they find a way to barely hang on.  Eventually, though, the heroes had to start coming out on top of events for no better reason than the writers wanted them to.

[Werthead]

This post on the SFC Forum did make me chuckle.

Quote

“I said ‘why?’” I was befuddled, and not just by the beefy scent of the apparition’s Burger King perfume. “I mean, you’ve only got three hours left, and you have a lot of ground to cover. You really want to waste the last bit of time you have to wrap everything up with throwaway footage from Adama’s job interview?”

“Well, maybe you’re right,” Moore said, nodding. “We have to leave time to see the first time Lee, Kara, and Zack went out to dinner.”

And:

Quote

"I need that scene to set up the answer to an even more important question.”

“Which is?”

“Which is,” Moore drawled, exasperated, “what would a drunken Lee Adama do if he were attacked by a pigeon?”

“What would…”

“The answer, just so you know, is that he would shoo the pigeon away with a broom.”

I liked the episode, but found this quite amusing.

[Jon AS]

Werthead said:

I liked the episode, but found this quite amusing.

:lol:

Same here, more or less. I think there are a lot of valid points in that "review". I think that when all is said and done, I'll remember Battlestar Galactica as the show that could have been so much better, could have been the best of its kind to date, if only the Cylons had had a plan.

[EHK for Darwin]

Heh, that post is actually fricken hilarious. Love the finale:

Quote

“Which, of course, explains nothing,” I said. “For instance, I outgrew my parents and moved out of the house, yet somehow I managed not to kill them in the process. And now we learn that the parents of the Cylons who planned the holocaust were the Final Five, not humans at all. And they created the skinjobs to avoid the holocaust that the skinjobs planned. And the one skinjob who claims the whole thing was a mistake is the one who’s behind it all, even now. We were told they have a plan; we were tantalized with lots of mysteries that have been retconned or ignored completely, and as the clock runs out, you’re doing everything you can to change the subject, to avoid facing the fact that the core premise of your show is a gaping black hole of incoherence.”

[Werthead]

* sprays tea in all directions at sudden geek realisation *

The 'black hole' thing got me confused. Kara actually calls the thing a 'naked singularity', whic is rather different. A naked singularity is not shielded from the outside universe and can still interact with it, transferring information and knowledge back and forth. A harnessed naked singularity could theoretically manipulate space/time, open artificial wormholes and do lots of other neat shit. You could also possibly shove in some hyper-advanced AI thing to control it.

Anyone who's read Peter F. Hamilton should know where this is going. Maybe the singularity is the One True {'naked') God? :stunned:

[Shryke]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 14 2009, 15.19, said:

Kind of missed the thrust of the criticism. I'm not talking about people choosing or not choosing to personally go on the suicide mission. I'm talking about noone raising an objection to taking a third of Galactica off on a suicide mission to rescue one individual in the first place. Noone bitched. Noone objected. Noone said 'What the fuck are you thinking you psychotic old man?' Personally I find this to be more extreme than Cylon jump drives and if people were willing to mutiny over that, there should be some dissension from this. Choosing not to volunteer is not real dissent. There should have been some objections to any mission at all that would effectively (likely) kill so many essential members of humanity. By actually taking Adama up on his 'cross the line' bullshit in the first place, no matter which side they walked to, they essentially did 'go along with it'.

They could have sold the military necessity of this. Its not like they didn't have any filler the last several episodes that they could have devoted to making the case on screen. They chose not to. And really, the whole show and the whole finale suffers because of it. This is Heroes level ridiculous.

Who was gonna object?

Adama's reasons are fairly simple. It's the picture that sets him off. Hot Dog talks about the pictures that are left behind. They are all of people who are forgotten. The only people who know them are dead. And Adama sees Hera and HE remembers her and he finally just ... snaps. He's thinking "Fuck that. I remember Hera. I'm getting my men back" (except in this case men = Hera)

Galactica's dying and Adama has decided he's goign to ram it down the Cylons throats and skull-fuck them with it. And who's gonna object to that? It's pretty much what everyones wants to do anyway.

Edited by Shryke, 14 March 2009 - 08:49 PM.

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Mar 14 2009, 20.45, said:

Who was gonna object?

Adama's reasons are fairly simple. It's the picture that sets him off. Hot Dog talks about the pictures that are left behind. They are all of people who are forgotten. The only people who know them are dead. And Adama sees Hera and HE remembers her and he finally just ... snaps. He's thinking "Fuck that. I remember Hera. I'm getting my men back" (except in this case men = Hera)

Galactica's dying and Adama has decided he's goign to ram it down the Cylons throats and skull-fuck them with it. And who's gonna object to that? It's pretty much what everyones wants to do anyway.

Maybe people who think the survival of the species is a higher priority than one little girl.

[Edward the Great]

Shryke, on Mar 14 2009, 20.45, said:

Galactica's dying and Adama has decided he's goign to ram it down the Cylons throats and skull-fuck them with it. And who's gonna object to that? It's pretty much what everyones wants to do anyway.

If I were there I would have objected strongly.

[Shryke]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 14 2009, 22.08, said:

Maybe people who think the survival of the species is a higher priority than one little girl.

Again, who was gonna object?

Don't give me some vague bullshit, give me a name. Give me a title at least. Give me someone who doesn't think "Let's take the last Battlestar, and instead of leaving it to rot, let's kill some fucking Cylons with it" is a good idea.

[EHK for Darwin]

Shryke, on Mar 14 2009, 21.24, said:

Again, who was gonna object?

Don't give me some vague bullshit, give me a name. Give me a title at least. Give me someone who doesn't think "Let's take the last Battlestar, and instead of leaving it to rot, let's kill some fucking Cylons with it" is a good idea.

That wasn't his rationalization. Not to himself nor to them. He made no effort whatsoever to sell it on those grounds. In fact there was no selling or convincing of any sort. Just a bit of tape + gruff voice. As to who specifically would object? Bob the plumber. Jonie the deckhand. Carl the janitor. The literally thousands of people on Galactica who we've never met and know nothing about, many of whom (most of whom more likely) would have to have some problems with the notion of throwing away a third of the able military personnel in the fleet for a suicide mission to rescue a little girl.

If it was just the dying basestar, I wouldn't anticipate many problems. But its the basestar, its commander, its XO, the acting President of the colonies, the real President of the colonies, all its best pilots, a large portion of its fighter fleet, many of its weapons, most of its marines, no doubt many specialists and technicians. But the only person sent back to the other side of the line is the fricken doctor? I understand that doctors are important, yet Cottle's not expendable but the de facto leader of fucking humanity is? Give me a fucking break. Everyone just pretended that there was nothing wrong with this exercise is monumental stupidity. How the hell does that not strike you as absurd?

Edited by EHK for a True GOP, 14 March 2009 - 09:35 PM.