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Rhaegar targaryen


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187 replies to this topic

#1 Starks_are_Vikings

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:20 PM

Hello

This might have been discussed in some earlier topic, but since i'm kind of new here I thought I'd just start a new topic to get some answers. If they are out there

I was wondering about something Barristan the Bold told Danerys concerning Rhaegar. I think it was in ASOS

He said something about Rhaegar being smart boy, who liked to read. Then one day he just left the books and went to the Master of Arms saying: "it seems I must be a warrior". I don't have the books with me, but i think it was something like that

My question is what he had read to make him so certain that he had to be a warrior. Are there any theories to the significance of this? H Seeing as I'm a novice, hopefully some of the maesters of this forum can provide me with some answers :)

#2 Red Lion of Castamere

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:41 PM

There are clues in the books and it has been theorized(heavily I might add) that Rhaegar got ahold of some ancient scrolls at a young age that dealt with the prophecy of The Prince Who was Promised. One example is the conversation with Barristan that you mention, and another would be when Dany goes into the house of the Undying and sees Rhaegar in a vision and he mentions to Elia that his son Aegon is The Prince Who was Promised. I believe Maester Aemon elaborates on it later, saying that Rhaegar originally thought the prophecy was speaking of himself, but then later thought that it must be his son.Many have made theories about how this might tie into the whole "abduction" of Lyanna as well.

So Rhaegar apparently took them very seriously and the prophecy directed many of the actions he took during his life. Once he was convinced that he was the Prince, he knew he was to be a warrior because the PWWP or Azor Ahai was obviously a great warrior of his time.

#3 Rhaegar_Targaryen

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:41 PM

Hello

This might have been discussed in some earlier topic, but since i'm kind of new here I thought I'd just start a new topic to get some answers. If they are out there

I was wondering about something Barristan the Bold told Danerys concerning Rhaegar. I think it was in ASOS

He said something about Rhaegar being smart boy, who liked to read. Then one day he just left the books and went to the Master of Arms saying: "it seems I must be a warrior". I don't have the books with me, but i think it was something like that

My question is what he had read to make him so certain that he had to be a warrior. Are there any theories to the significance of this? H Seeing as I'm a novice, hopefully some of the maesters of this forum can provide me with some answers :)



Well of course it has a major significance. Some people believe it is something to do with the Ptwp or AA reborn. It has to be something major to change Rhaegar's personal belief system.

#4 israfel070

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 07:18 PM

I tend to think that this was the moment when he began to believe that he would be the father of the three heads of the dragon. There may have been an implication in the prophecies that the father would be a mighty warrior/die a warrior's death, or something along those lines. I like the latter because it means that when Rhaegar left Lyanna in the ToJ and went to the Trident, he might have known in advance that he was going to die. Another, simpler thought is that he decided that he would prepare himself to teach the three heads about battle.

#5 The_BlauerDragon

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 07:31 PM

I think the first explanation (the one offered in the books, and laid out by Red Lion of Castamere) fits it best. Rhaegar originally thought that he was to be the PwwP, later in life (and I think much of where his melancholy demeanor came from) he decided that his son must be the PwwP. I think that this was the result of full-blown Targaryen madness finally setting in on him. It would explain why he became so obsessed that he kidnapped Lyanna (plunging the entire realm into chaos and war). It would also explain why a man that so many thought so highly of could be capable of suddenly kidnapping and repeatedly raping an innocent young woman.

#6 Kimera757

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 08:51 PM

I doubt he did any raping. People who had an unbiased view of Rhaegar seem to think him incapable of that. Ned himself, who may have lost a sister to him, never said anything bad about him.

Anyway, I agree the prophecies had something to do with it. IMO, prophecies are not guaranteed. I don't believe he expected to die at the Trident, and if he or son Aegon were the PtwP, well, they're both dead.

Even if the prophecy said his son was destined to be the PtwP, I don't see why he didn't expect Elia to bear the child. I think he just fell in love with Lyanna, and had no idea that taking her away to live in some fantasy land would have such wide ranging repercussions.

It would be ironic if Jon turned out to be the PtwP. It'd also make me ill; he's Marty Stu enough as it is.

Edited by Kimera757, 06 March 2009 - 11:37 PM.


#7 Raff the Sweetling

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 09:24 PM

Rhaeger is Coldhands. You heard it here first.

#8 Winter Crow

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:34 AM

Rhaeger is Coldhands. You heard it here first.

That's going into my personal cabinet of crackpot theories that kick ass.

Rhaegar... Well, there's much speculation about that dude. I think the key to understanding him is knowing what the hell his weirdo prophecy or whatever he was reading is all about. But I guess he found out somewhere that "the hero of the prophecy must be a legendary warrior, loved by all the people and a master fighter". That would explain why he suddenly had his change of heart (from bookworm to knight).
But I actually like Blauer's theory about the Targaryen madness causing him to be obssessed with the prophecy, like OCD or somethin' like that. It would really be an interresting plot twist, and would steer Rhaegar away from his "ultimate-superhero-like-dude of Westeros" reputation (which I hate).

#9 Winter Crow

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:34 AM

Sorry for the double post.

I'll get my coat... :leaving:

Edited by Winter Crow, 07 March 2009 - 05:38 AM.


#10 israfel070

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 02:53 PM

Rhaeger is Coldhands. You heard it here first.

Despite the fact that thousands of soldiers watched his chest get split open, several hundred leagues (1l=3mi) from the Wall?

They burned his body, remember? That's the one thing we know that absolutely prevents wightification.

#11 Winter Crow

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:01 PM

Despite the fact that thousands of soldiers watched his chest get split open, several hundred leagues (1l=3mi) from the Wall?

They burned his body, remember? That's the one thing we know that absolutely prevents wightification.


Simple explanation; That was a FM. The real Rhaegar went beyond to Wall to become a phsycadellic junkie with black hands, who writes rubbish poems, sings weirdo songs and roams around saving fat people and children alike.
You heard it here first...

#12 Ser Hot Pie

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:10 PM

I think that this was the result of full-blown Targaryen madness finally setting in on him.

Ah ha! I asked you this question in another thread, but I can't find that discussion now, so I'm reposting it.

Besides Aerys II and Areion Brightflame (and possibly Visyres III) who else do you consider "insane" from the Targaryan line? It seems to me that the majority of the family isn't actually that f'd up. Sure there are examples of cruelty, egotism and self delusion, but I think on the whole they fall short of full blown mental instability. I've seen other posts of yours where you ascribe Rhaegar's actions to a predisposition to a genetic failing, but I'm not convinced that the true Targaryan legacy leads one to that conclusion (although we are, as readers, set up originally to think that way).

#13 Sirius

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 05:15 PM

Ah ha! I asked you this question in another thread, but I can't find that discussion now, so I'm reposting it.

Besides Aerys II and Areion Brightflame (and possibly Visyres III) who else do you consider "insane" from the Targaryan line? It seems to me that the majority of the family isn't actually that f'd up. Sure there are examples of cruelty, egotism and self delusion, but I think on the whole they fall short of full blown mental instability. I've seen other posts of yours where you ascribe Rhaegar's actions to a predisposition to a genetic failing, but I'm not convinced that the true Targaryan legacy leads one to that conclusion (although we are, as readers, set up originally to think that way).


Blauer also hates Rhaegar, so I like to ignore everything that he says about him :)

#14 snake

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 06:07 PM

the Blauer Dragon is a very intelligent and insightful poster. He/she see's Rhaegar for what he truly was. An obsessed individual who would do anything to see his prophecy fulfilled. Including kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark.

Edited by snake, 07 March 2009 - 06:07 PM.


#15 Winter Crow

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 07:11 PM

Oh dear, I see where this is going :thumbsup: .

Ser Hot Pie: I agree with you that there aren't many "mad" Targaryens officially, but if you ask me that's just the full-blown-over-the-top madness that graced Aerys. Some few might have been slightly less mad, yet still quite f'ed up in the cookhouse.
Remember, Barristan Selmy was willing to actually test his sworn queen for "the taint". I think that says quite a lot about how "common" it might be.
Sadly I never gave a crap for the long and boring family tree of the Targaryens, so I can't pull forth any direct refferences to people who were only "slightly mad", yet I think that there might be some. And besides, who's to say that Rhaegar wasn't among the full-blown-over-the-top mad Targs?

And guys, please for the love of every freakin' god and nation out there, DON'T TREAT ANY THEORIES AS CANON! It's annoying beyond count, and it ruins a good discussion.

#16 marwyn

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 07:35 PM

Oh dear, I see where this is going :thumbsup: .

Ser Hot Pie: I agree with you that there aren't many "mad" Targaryens officially, but if you ask me that's just the full-blown-over-the-top madness that graced Aerys. Some few might have been slightly less mad, yet still quite f'ed up in the cookhouse.
Remember, Barristan Selmy was willing to actually test his sworn queen for "the taint". I think that says quite a lot about how "common" it might be.
Sadly I never gave a crap for the long and boring family tree of the Targaryens, so I can't pull forth any direct refferences to people who were only "slightly mad", yet I think that there might be some. And besides, who's to say that Rhaegar wasn't among the full-blown-over-the-top mad Targs?

And guys, please for the love of every freakin' god and nation out there, DON'T TREAT ANY THEORIES AS CANON! It's annoying beyond count, and it ruins a good discussion.


Well, a very famous one was Baelor the Blessed, who must have been quite mad :P At least in one of the books (think it was aFfC) we get to hear that he was actually a pretty fucked up person as well.

Maekar the Cruel, who murdered every architect and builder who worked on Maekars Holdfast, so that no one would know it's secrets.

They're not all outright mad of course. But the fact that they are incestuous does mean that their chance to be not completely right in the head is quite a bit higher. (Didnt all Valyrian noble families commit incest? Must have been a pretty fucked up place)

Even Dany isnt 100% right in the head. It looks like she might well develop the Targaryen madness that her father had, if there's something that would set her off (like the Defiance of Duskendale was the trigger for Aerys)

#17 arek

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 09:08 PM

Well, a very famous one was Baelor the Blessed, who must have been quite mad At least in one of the books (think it was aFfC) we get to hear that he was actually a pretty fucked up person as well.


Baelor was mad agree, but he wasnt cruel, he forgave those who conspired against him so he never provoked the houses in the same way Aerys did. Plus Baelors hand Viserys II kept the realm intact.

Maekar the Cruel, who murdered every architect and builder who worked on Maekars Holdfast, so that no one would know it's secrets.


Its Maegor the cruel not Maekar. Maegor earned his nickname the cruel he did kill all the builders, 3 grandmaestars, & several wives for failing to produce an heir for him (bet he was seedless). Maekar was eggs father he was pretty sane.

Even Dany isnt 100% right in the head. It looks like she might well develop the Targaryen madness that her father had, if there's something that would set her off (like the Defiance of Duskendale was the trigger for Aerys)


Most characters in these stories arent a 100% right in the head either & their is no such thing in real life as being 100% sane so why should their be in martins gritty fantasy.

Dany gone through more stress in her short 16 years (an abusive Viserys, losing her husband & child, witnessing the house of the undying) & shes still pretty sane. Doubt Aerys II went through a quarter of what Dany went through.

#18 Cornelius

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 10:37 PM

Well, a very famous one was Baelor the Blessed, who must have been quite mad :P At least in one of the books (think it was aFfC) we get to hear that he was actually a pretty fucked up person as well.

Maekar the Cruel, who murdered every architect and builder who worked on Maekars Holdfast, so that no one would know it's secrets.

They're not all outright mad of course. But the fact that they are incestuous does mean that their chance to be not completely right in the head is quite a bit higher. (Didnt all Valyrian noble families commit incest? Must have been a pretty fucked up place)

Even Dany isnt 100% right in the head. It looks like she might well develop the Targaryen madness that her father had, if there's something that would set her off (like the Defiance of Duskendale was the trigger for Aerys)


IIRC, the Targaryens took up incest because they wanted to keep the Valyrian blood-line pure, and not because it was a Valyrian custom. Even if that was the way it was in Valyria however, incest was fairly common in ancient Egypt, so it's really a matter of then versus now, them versus us, and it doesn't necessarily mean it was a "fucked up place"

Edited by Cornelius, 07 March 2009 - 10:38 PM.


#19 Kimera757

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Posted 07 March 2009 - 11:57 PM

How many Targaryens got themselves killed trying to turn into dragons? Or just wasted time/resources trying to "wake" dragons?

#20 israfel070

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 12:52 AM

Simple explanation; That was a FM. The real Rhaegar went beyond to Wall to become a phsycadellic junkie with black hands, who writes rubbish poems, sings weirdo songs and roams around saving fat people and children alike.

Quite simple indeed