Group Read-a-thon-along: The Worm Ouroboros

[Zap Rowsdower]

[quote name='Maia' post='1727445' date='Mar 20 2009, 13.35']But I still have a vote, don't I? IIRC, somebody else already cast theirs for Dunsany, so that can't be mine. I am casting for Newton's Sleep, then :) ![/quote]

I'm sorry-[b] I have spoken![/b]

No, really, I am sorry. But since you've already read the book, is there any reason why you can't take place in the discussion as well? I'm sure everyone would like to hear your thoughts on the material (as long as you don't post any big spoilers).

As further consolation, to you, you should be aware that, on my own, I was planning to continue reading "The Case of the 16 Beans," by Harry Keeler. If you really want to do a group reading, we could perhaps do a mini-group reading of this book. We could revive [url="http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showtopic=34589"]this thread[/url] for that purpose. Although I would understand perfectly if you'd rather not participate, since Harry Keeler isn't everyone's cup of tea.

[Rumarumo]

I didn't vote/suggest a book cos my main goal in this was to be directed to a work that is considered good, but that I probably wouldn't go for on my own :) I'll print off my copy tomorrow and get started ;)

That said, I didn't realise "Newton's Sleep" was not only a post-apocalyptic (prob my favourite branch of sci-fi) novel, let alone that it was by LeGuin, so I'll probably check that out anyway once we're done here!

[Shield]

Yes, I wouldn't have minded if Newton's Sleep had won either. I checked it out and it looks pretty interesting. Perhaps next time. :)

Reading and posting schedule looks good.

[Blue Roses]

Ordered a paperback copy from Amazon - should arrive hopefully Tues/Weds so I will have to get a move on reading it. Probably won't post until nearer the end of the week.

[Bellis]

I found a paperback for $10 at Barnes and Noble, which saves me having to read off a computer :)

[felice]

[quote name='Muttering Bill' post='1726799' date='Mar 20 2009, 08.09']Yeah, you can buy it for $30. And Amazon looks to be the only place that has it. Better off getting the free version.[/quote]
Direct from the publisher is rather cheaper - about US$22 including international postage at the current exchange rate.

[quote name='Yerman' post='1727471' date='Mar 20 2009, 15.51']That said, I didn't realise "Newton's Sleep" was not only a post-apocalyptic (prob my favourite branch of sci-fi) novel, let alone that it was by LeGuin[/quote]
That's a different book - the one we're talking about is "Newtons Sleep" (no apostrophe) by Daniel O'Mahony.

[Zap Rowsdower]

Some quick, inconsequential commentary on what I've read thus far:

I've read the point where the ambassador has been sent packing back to Witchland. The language took a little getting used to at first but I'm quite enjoying myself so far.

I was rather surprised by the way the author choose to frame the story, having it observed by the invisible spirit of an Englishman. Is this sort of event commonplace in the Sceptered Isles, to be transported in the dead of night to observe far off events and people? I found the entire concept strange but above all terrifying, for who is to say that you, me, and everyone, is not even at this very moment being spied upon by a phantasmal, imperceptible Briton? This idea will haunt my dreams for years to come.

A note on one of the characters, King Gorice of Witchland. I admire the fact that he apparently ordered his fleet to flee the ghouls and force the Demons to sustain all the losses. However, I cannot say I approve of sending the ambassador to the Demons to basically let them know he intends to attack. If I had been in Gorice's shoes, I simply would have sent my fleet without warning and commenced with the redundant looting and pillaging. As a compromise, I might have sent the ambassador and his ship a day ahead of the main fleet, have him deliver the gloating ultimatum and attacked when the ambassador returned with word of the rejection.

Can't wait to see how thing develop.

[Muttering Bill]

Got my copy from the library on Saturday afternoon.

I've only read through [i]The Induction [/i]so far, and that was thoroughly confusing. So... Lessingham sleeps in a special room in his house and, for that, is transported via gryphon drawn charriot to another world? If, according to Zap, he's not the main character, then I really don't see the need for him.

Still trying to adjust to the language. And the endnotes in this copy just make it even more confusing, so I'm going to stop reading them. Even if they did help to reconcile the clumsy "There was a man named Lessingham..." opening.

[Bellis]

My edition has this interesting introduction by Brian Atterbery, which I can't find easily online unfortunately. The main points are that 1. Eddison had a really boring day job in a bank, 2. His descriptions are pretty over the top, and you totally would never want the Demon's interior decorator, and 3. his world and characters, in contrast to Tolkien, are brimming with passion for life. His characters love eating and sex. When given the choice, they'd rather get laid than have any riches. (This is a spoiler I think).

I've read the first 4 chapters. It's lush and wooly. I definitely see a certain passion to the characters. I might need to re-read to be sure I have the characters straight.

I also notice that what is supposed to be the boring Englishman in his humdrum life in the Induction seems to be a pretty fantastic world as well. Unlike a lot of contemporary crossover fantasy, the modern world here is almost indistinguishable in style from the fantasy world.

[Muttering Bill]

Mine is introduced and annotated by a fellow name Paul Edmund Thomas. I haven't read the introduction, as it will likely be teeming with spoilers. I only read the first couple of notes, and while they were informative, I found it to be too much effort to get back into the flow of the story while taking little breaks to read them.

I really hate the way this guy (Eddison) writes. His language is just so antiquated. I'm sure they were beyond that form of speech in the 20's. Sure, he wants to convey an authentic medieval tone, but it ends up being a chore to decipher.

Well, it's early still; maybe another 20-30 pages and I'll be more used to it.

I've just finished Chapter 2, and so far the story is fairly interesting. I was rolling my eyes at first over the "wrastling" match, but in the end he actually did a fair job with it. If only somebody could have swept through and changed "wrastling" to "wrestling" that would have made it easier to bear.

I'm curious to see what excuse Corund will devise to break the agreement. Assuming that that is the point of the story, and it's not just some filler to set up something else entirely.

I would also like to know more about Lessingham's home. Specifically the Lotus Room. I'm wondering, if he is just an observer in spirit, how there is such peril in the journey that Mary didn't want to go? And whether every trip brings him (them) to the same world? It must be a different story every time at least, else he wouldn't have been so suprised over the sudden fast forward of a few weeks.

That room, and Lessingham on the whole, probably don't matter much to the story though.

[DeliriousEdd]

I've read a little beyond the "wrastling" match. Can't say I'm a fan of the language either. The descriptions of every throne, step, pillar, floor, and wall was a bit extreme.

I've read over the first few chapters twice and I'm still confused. Lessingham is referred to as earthman more than once and their destination is Mercury. But he's unable to interact with anyone or anything. Seems like more of a dream than actual travel. Also the creatures described on Mercury are a mix of earth normal and the fantastical. The guide tells Lessingham what they're going to do but offers no explanation as to why. Why is he referred to as "first of the children of men" and why are they going to "journey up and down for a season to show thee the lands and oceans, the forests, plains, and ancient mountains, cities and palaces of this world, Mercury, and the doings of them that dwell therein"? By comparison, the demon/witchland interaction seems straightforward and makes much more sense.

[Shryke]

Re: The British "Narrator" or what have you

As I remember, he's nothing more then a framing device. And he disappears eventually and is never again mentioned. Or something like that.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I just finished the assigned reading for this week. I had initially planned on reading a few pages each night before I went to to sleep but the archaic wording of the text defeated my progress since I was usually half somnolent in the evenings.

When I read it during the day it was much easier and I found myself engrossed in spite (or perhaps even because of) the way the author writes.

First and foremost, let me state that Lord Gro is awesome. He's quickly becoming my favorite character.

Since it hasn't been stated, I have to wonder if it was Lord Gro's influence and advice that caused the Witches' fleet to abandon the Demons when they fought the Ghouls. I have to say that I have a hard time imagining Gorice XI coming up with something like that on his own.

It has been mentioned that the Demons all have horns. And I think the Witches' ambassador had a tail of some sort. I wanted to ask my fellow readers if they have been able to tell if all the Witches have tails or if it was just the ambassador? And as Lord Gro is a Goblin I wonder if anyone has spotted any feature in him that would indicate that he is another other than what we would regard as human?

And I'd just thought I'd let my fellow readers know, for when they come to it, the phrase [i]Timor mortis conturbat me[/i] means "fear of death disturbs me".

[quote]So... Lessingham sleeps in a special room in his house and, for that, is transported via gryphon drawn charriot to another world? If, according to Zap, he's not the main character, then I really don't see the need for him.[/quote]

Let me go on a brief tangent- Lyz Kingsly, in [url="http://www.aycyas.com/unholynight.htm"]her review[/url] of the movie 1929 movie "The Unholy Night," noted:

[quote]Although European audiences had from the beginning embraced films dealing with the supernatural – and although those films, when shown in the United States, had upon the whole been successful – it would be the sound era before the horror film, as such, established itself in Hollywood. Throughout the silent years, film fans looking for chills were forced to choose between the physical horror of Lon Chaney’s macabre but real world-based thrillers; historical horrors, such as – Chaney again – The Hunchback Of Notre Dame, or The Man Who Laughs; or the pseudo-horrors, in which terrifying events either turned out to be “all a dream”, or were dismissed at last with that bane of all horror fans, a rational explanation.[/quote]

Her observation is very much true. In many older films, it seemed like many movie studios were quite embarrassed to include truly supernatural elements. It seemed that movie makers felt that such supernatural horrors simply were not respectable. The horror, the monster, or the menace had to be explainable in scientific terms or must have some other mundane explanation. Thus you'd have movies that were like episodes of the old Scooby Doo show, featuring a haunted house where the ghosts turned out criminals trying to scare off the heroes using a silly local superstition. Or it was all a series of coincidences. Stuff like that.

These days, an author wouldn't blink an eye to set a story in an utterly fantastical realm with no connection at all to Earth. But I think we should remember that the book we are reading was published in 1922 before all of the conventions of the fantasy genre really had time to take hold. I wonder if the author felt that he was perhaps asking too much from readers of the day to accept an utterly made up realm. Perhaps he felt he need a connection (however tenuous) to reality as we know it. Thus he felt he needed to include the phantasmal Englishman (to act as the eyes and ears for the normal reading audience) and also to set the story on the planet Mercury, which is a real location, but so far off and so mysterious that it would allow the author to do anything he wants to in terms of plot.

[Teng Ai Hui]

[quote name='Muttering Bill' post='1731876' date='Mar 24 2009, 14.25']I really hate the way this guy (Eddison) writes. His language is just so antiquated. I'm sure they were beyond that form of speech in the 20's. Sure, he wants to convey an authentic medieval tone, but it ends up being a chore to decipher.[/quote]

I agree. But for me it's not just the language style. I hate reading all these details that seem meaningless -- the description of Juss's castle, the listing of every physical feature of the demon lords, Red Foliot's dirge, and the dances following the dirge. The only things holding my interest are the wrastling match and political intrigues.

[Vrana]

[quote name='Zap Rowsdower' post='1729985' date='Mar 23 2009, 06.15']I was rather surprised by the way the author choose to frame the story, having it observed by the invisible spirit of an Englishman. Is this sort of event commonplace in the Sceptered Isles, to be transported in the dead of night to observe far off events and people? I found the entire concept strange but above all terrifying, for who is to say that you, me, and everyone, is not even at this very moment being spied upon by a phantasmal, imperceptible Briton? This idea will haunt my dreams for years to come.[/quote]
Hahaha, I would love this.

I haven't been able to get much further than the second chapter, I've reread the whole thing as the archaic language is really throwing me off. It is an interesting read though and I'm going to try to get a real grip on the book tonight. So far the descriptions tend to be to misleading and I have a hard time following the actual storyline. (not that I've gotten that far.)

I'm a bit behind but I happened to open Nabokov's Lolita, and I've been completely immersed in it for the past few days.

[wildfire]

Just read the 1st chapter... I'll hopefully get through a bit more later, but some first impressions:

I see someone mentioned the author was a banker... I wonder if there isn't meant to be some sort of political satire in here some where. The period between the world wars is not my area of expertise, but Demonland seems very much like the a place in the 'exotic far east' to me. Otherwise, why the Demons and witches and such.. so far, other then the names, there's nothing particular 'fantastic' about the story.... While set on 'Mercury' with a ghostly Englishman watching, it could easily be a made up middle eastern country.

I like that the 'demons' are the PoV, and perhaps the good guys, living in the heavens.

The 1st scene with the Englishman reading with his wife put me in mind of the Princess Bride for some reason :)

If GRRM wrote this, the ambassador would be in big trouble.. he refused wine, so he doesn't fall under guest protection ;)

I agree the descriptions are too much, and the language a bit of a slog, I'm hoping it picks up though.

There's a good chance I'll get to read more later, just wanted to post some general impressions of the first chapter.

[Shield]

I think all the important points about the first section have been pretty much covered. I wish I knew when I could skim descriptions as they are fairly unbearable but he does tend to drip feed what might be important details here and then, thus making skimming a dangerous activity. Descriptions aside, I'm not finding the prose style too difficult and the story is interesting if not compelling. So far, and I have only read the first chapter and the prologue, it all seems a bit linear. I'm hoping for some twists soon.

Thank you Zap for the info regarding why he may have included the framing device and Lessingham , as I was getting a bit impatient for him to play a part in the story.


Oh, and the word, wrastle. I love it way too much. It may just make the wrastling bearable for me. ;)

[Muttering Bill]

[quote name='Zap Rowsdower' post='1732211' date='Mar 24 2009, 18.37']These days, an author wouldn't blink an eye to set a story in an utterly fantastical realm with no connection at all to Earth. But I think we should remember that the book we are reading was published in 1922 before all of the conventions of the fantasy genre really had time to take hold. I wonder if the author felt that he was perhaps asking too much from readers of the day to accept an utterly made up realm. Perhaps he felt he need a connection (however tenuous) to reality as we know it. Thus he felt he needed to include the phantasmal Englishman (to act as the eyes and ears for the normal reading audience) and also to set the story on the planet Mercury, which is a real location, but so far off and so mysterious that it would allow the author to do anything he wants to in terms of plot.[/quote]
I suspected that that was probably the case. Had there been any second world fantasy novels before this?

Just finsihed off Chapter 3, and I completely missed that they were on Mercury, that the demons have horns (though I inferred that they must, else they wouldn't be called demon's), and that the Witches have tails. Nor did I noticed anything describing Gro, or the Ghouls in general.

And yes, Gro is proving quite clever. I guess he's the Littlefinger of the book. :devil:

[Maia]

Well, re: Lessingham, he is just a popular framing device of the era. IIRC Dunsany employs something similar in some of his stories, one could argue that Wells' "Time Machine" is another example and doubtlessly there are many more. Even Tolkien tried things along those lines in some of the early drafts of what became Silmarillion, IIRC.

But while Lessingham may disappear from the plot of the "Worm", let's not forget that it is just a first volume in a loose Zimiavian series, which also includes "Mistress of Mistresses" and 2 other books, and character of Lessingham is the linking device in it, IIRC.

[Zap Rowsdower]

[quote name='TengAiHui' post='1733166' date='Mar 25 2009, 12.30']I agree. But for me it's not just the language style. I hate reading all these details that seem meaningless -- the description of Juss's castle, the listing of every physical feature of the demon lords, Red Foliot's dirge, and the dances following the dirge. The only things holding my interest are the wrastling match and political intrigues.[/quote]

It picks up quite a bit around the Conjuring in the Iron Tower. I agree that the descriptions can be a bit much...at times. Other times I actually enjoy the descriptions. I was, for instance, quite taken with the crab and centipede motif that the Witches incorporate into their clothing.

[quote name='Muttering Bill' post='1734528' date='Mar 26 2009, 11.57']I suspected that that was probably the case. Had there been any second world fantasy novels before this?[/quote]

I'm not sure to tell you the truth. I don't have a sufficient breadth of knowledge to speak intelligently about the literature of that era. I think Lord Dunsany had written some stuff. There might have been some pulp magazines as well, but other than that I'm having a hard time thinking of any fantasy novels. Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is the closest thing that I can think of off hand.


[quote name='Maia' post='1734834' date='Mar 26 2009, 15.46']Well, re: Lessingham, he is just a popular framing device of the era. IIRC Dunsany employs something similar in some of his stories, one could argue that Wells' "Time Machine" is another example and doubtlessly there are many more. Even Tolkien tried things along that line in some of the early drafts of what became Silmarillion, IIRC.

But while Lessingham may disappear from the plot of the "Worm", let's not forget that it is just a first volume in a loose Zimiavian series, which also includes "Mistress of Mistresses" and 2 other books, and character of Lessingham is the linking device in it, IIRC.[/quote]

Maia, I'm glad you are participating in the discussion even though you've already read the book!


On another note, does anyone have any suggestions on how far we should read for next Friday? It seems like a number of people haven't reached the end of this last week's readings and I wouldn't want to pile on an even greater number of chapters.